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tchaiku 04-12-2017 01:11 PM

Leo VI the wise in his Tactica, how his father Basil I 'byzantinized' the Slavs of his empire:



[18.95] «Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».

English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".

tchaiku 04-12-2017 03:39 PM

I wonder why is R1a so low in Balkans?

Carlin 04-12-2017 10:49 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167775]Leo VI the wise in his Tactica, how his father Basil I 'byzantinized' the Slavs of his empire:



[18.95] «Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».

English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".[/QUOTE]

-- Cyril Mango, verbatim from [I]Byzantium: The Empire of New Rome[/I]:

Was Hellenization, for example, a conscious aim of the imperial government, and if so, how was it implemented and with what success? And if it succeeded in the Middle Ages, why had it not done so in Antiquity under conditions of a more settled life and a higher civilization?

When we look at our scanty sources, we realize that the formulation of the above questions does not correspond to the Byzantine way of thinking. [B]First of all, the very designation 'Greek', which we use so freely today to describe those Byzantines who did not belong to any alien group, [U]is entirely absent from the literature of the period[/U].[/B] An inhabitant of Greece south of Thessaly would have referred to himself as a [I]Helladikos[/I] (a name already current in the sixth century AD), but he could have been a Slav as well as a 'Greek'. The same holds true of other regions whose dwellers called themselves by the names of their respective provinces, for example Paphlagonians or Thrakesians (after the Thrakesian 'theme' in western Asia Minor). Since, therefore, [B]there was no notion of 'Greekness', it is hard to see how there could have been one of 'hellenization'.[/B]

The only passage, to my knowledge, that may imply something of the kind says that the Emperor Basil I converted the Slavonic tribes from their old religion and, [B]'having grecized them (graikosas), subjected them to governors according to Roman custom, honoured them with baptism, and delivered them from the oppression of their own rulers'[/B]. It has long been, however, a matter of dispute what the term [B]'grecized'[/B] may mean in the present context. What we do hear about, again and again, is the [B]conversion of various peoples to Orthodox Christianity[/B], be they Slavs or Muslim Cretans, and the setting up of an ecclesiastical organization. Here is how the Chronicle of Monembasia describes the activity of the Emperor Nicephorus I in the Peloponnese:

[B]'He built [I]de novo[/I] the town of Lacedaemon and settled in it a [U]mixed population, namely Kafirs, Thrakesians, Armenians and others[/U], gathered from different places and towns, and made it into a bishopric.'[/B]

Surely, neither the Kafirs (possibly a generic term for converts from Islam) nor the Armenians would have contributed to the hellenization of Laconia. The emperor's purpose was simply to implant a Christian population and set up a bishopric.

Equally telling is the case of the Slavs in Bithynia. We have seen that these were transplanted in very considerable numbers at the end of the seventh century and towards the middle of the eighth. Some two hundred years later, the Byzantine armament assembled in an effort to conquer Crete in 949 included a contingent of '[B]Slavonians who are established in Opsikion[/B]' (this being the administrative name of a part of Bithynia) placed under their own commanders. Clearly, these Slavonians still formed a distinct group. In the next century Anna Comnena refers to a village in Bithynia '[B]locally called Sagoudaous[/B]', presumably after the tribe of the Sagoudatai, attested in Macedonia in the seventh century. A little later the Slavonic element in Bithynia was augmented by the Emperor John II Comnenus who settled near Nicomedia a throng of Serbian captives. Serbian villages are still mentioned in those parts in the thirteenth century.

[B]In other words, it is quite possible that the Slavs in Bithynia, or at any rate part of them, were[/B] [B]assimilated by the Ottoman Turks, [U]without having even become 'Greek'[/U].[/B]



PS:
-- [I]The Edinburgh History of the Greeks, c. 500 to 1500[/I], by Florin Curta --> Page 288 and Page 289 quotes/summaries:

i) '[B]Kapheroi, Thrakesians, Armenians, and others[/B] from different places and cities' settled in Peloponnesos in the early ninth century, while [B]Armenians 'and other rabble' came to Crete[/B] in the aftermath of the island's conquest in 961.
ii) The [B]Kapheroi[/B] may well have been [B]converted Arabs[/B] from the eastern frontier of the Empire.

tchaiku 04-13-2017 02:00 AM

SLAVS IN MIDDLE AGES


1) A little before 650 AD, Isidore of Seville wrote that during the first years of emperor Herakleios's reign (ca. 614 AD) [I]"Sclavi Graeciam Romanis tulerunt"[/I] ("The Slavs have taken Greece from the Romans").

2) The writer of the "Miracles of Saint Demetrius" described 7th century Thessaloniki as "a Roman island in a slavic sea".

3) Willibald wrotein his biography that when he was going to Jerusalem from Sicily in 723 AD his ship stopped [I]"ad urbem Manafasiam in Sclavenia terra"[/I] ("in the city of Monemvasia in the land of Sclavenia").

4) The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

[I]«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»
[/I]
"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' (=uncivilized) Slavs"

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

[I]«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»
[/I]

s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'"


5) The Emperor Contantine VI Porphyrogennetos in the «Περί Θεμάτων» wrote about the Peloponnese that:

[I]«Ἐσθλαβώθη δὲ πᾶσα ἡ χώρα καὶ γέγονε βάρβαρος, ὅτε ὁ λοιμικὸς θάνατος πᾶσαν ἐβόσκετο τὴν οἰκουμένην, ὁπηνίκα Κωνσταντῖνος ὁ τῆς κοπρίας ἐπώνυμος σκῆπτρα τῆς τῶν Ῥωμαίων διεῖπεν ἀρχῆς.
[/I]
De thematibus II (ed. Bonn. 53, 18)

"The entire country [of Peloponnese] has been colonized by Slavs and became barbarian, when the deadly plague had stroke the empire, that is when Contantine V the "Copronymos" was emperor of the Romans".


Right after he had wrote that he remembered the Peloponnesian patrician Niketas Rendakios whom the people of Constantinople had described as a "cunning Slavic face" («γαρασδοειδής όψις εσθλαβωμένη»). The term «γαρασδοειδής» is an impromptu utilization of the slavic word gorazd = "valiant, clever", which here is used with the derogatory sense of "cunning, foxy". The Slavist Phaidon Malingoudis has explained the surname Rendakios also as a slavic nickname for "administrator" (he derives it from the proto-slavic verb ręditi (ę = a proto-slavic nasalised vowel pronounced as /en/ that survives in Polish) which means to "determine, administer, set".

6) In the late 11th century, the Patriarch Nicholas Grammatikos describes the Slavic colonization of the Peloponnese in a letter to emperor Alexios Komnenos with the words:

[I]«Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»
[/I]
"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

7) When Emperor Michael Palaiologos decided to launch the reconquista of the Peloponnese from the Franks (late 13th century), when he arrived in Mistras, the first to welcome him were the Slavs of Taygetos and the Tsakones of Parnon. The Frankish rulers of Peloponnese in the french version of the "chronicle of Morea" describe these Slavs as "un gent de voulentè et n'obeissent a nul seignor" (Livre de la Conqueste de la Princèe de l'Amorèe) "a people with guts who don't obey in no master". Plus, they write that they had conquered all of Peloponnese except the Slavs of Taygetus. We are later told that the same Slavs of Taygetus had liberated the city of Kalamata from the Franks and restored it to the Byzantine control.

a) Mazaris wrote:

[I]«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].
[/I]
"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).


b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western Europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes".

^This page is more interesting so I thought coping and pasting it here, so for those quotes to not go down to toilet.

Carlin 04-14-2017 10:42 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167311]Aromanians another category ( [B]Vlachs[/B]) are those who are [B]known today as "Greek minority" in Albania[/B]. It is historical fact that the ancestors of the "minorities" of today were farmers coming from the [B]Pindos mountains[/B], to work on southern areas. Zones of them have come to the Middle Ages and during the time that the new name was different "Wallachia" (For more you can read the "History of the Balkans" by Georges Castellan) So arrivals as farmers in areas Vurgu, Delvina, Dropullit etc. were Greek-[B]Vlach[/B]. Given the influence of the church and especially in the Greek policies, we can understand very well why the so-called "Greek minority" is called such way. So "Greek minority" is not a Greek minority.

The grammar errors are from Google Translate I did not bother reconstructioning the paragraph entirely.[/QUOTE]

1) That many Vlachs living in neighbouring countries view nowadays Greece as their Metropolis is perhaps best illustrated in the paradigm of the [B]Vlachophone population[/B] residing today in [B]Albania[/B].

2) Without credible demographics or even 'opinion polls' it is impossible to assess the percentages of each constituency although historically, the [B]evidence of an Albanian Vlach orientation toward a Greek identity is indeed staggering. [/B]

3) [B][U]From a Greek viewpoint[/U][/B], the affiliation of Albanian Vlachs is central to the question of Northern Epirus in light of [B]the fact that the Vlachs constitute the [U]predominant element of the Greek minority in present-day Albania[/U][/B]. Rejection of a Greek identity by the Vlachs [doubtless, a wishful thinking by many] will further shrivel the critical mass of the Greek minority in southern Albania. Thus, the 'ethnic' separation of the Vlachs from Greeks is a high stake of Albanian nationalism ? the break of the Vlachs from Greek camp will effectively silence Greek 'claims' or grievances as regards to their 'perceived' sizeable minority in Albania.

Taken from URL:
[url]http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2017/04/the-political-side-of-kutzovlach-affair.html[/url]

tchaiku 04-15-2017 02:15 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167803]1) That many Vlachs living in neighbouring countries view nowadays Greece as their Metropolis is perhaps best illustrated in the paradigm of the [B]Vlachophone population[/B] residing today in [B]Albania[/B].

2) Without credible demographics or even 'opinion polls' it is impossible to assess the percentages of each constituency although historically, the [B]evidence of an Albanian Vlach orientation toward a Greek identity is indeed staggering. [/B]

3) [B][U]From a Greek viewpoint[/U][/B], the affiliation of Albanian Vlachs is central to the question of Northern Epirus in light of [B]the fact that the Vlachs constitute the [U]predominant element of the Greek minority in present-day Albania[/U][/B]. Rejection of a Greek identity by the Vlachs [doubtless, a wishful thinking by many] will further shrivel the critical mass of the Greek minority in southern Albania. Thus, the 'ethnic' separation of the Vlachs from Greeks is a high stake of Albanian nationalism ? the break of the Vlachs from Greek camp will effectively silence Greek 'claims' or grievances as regards to their 'perceived' sizeable minority in Albania.

Taken from URL:
[url]http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2017/04/the-political-side-of-kutzovlach-affair.html[/url][/QUOTE]

There are also Vlachs who are assimilated as Albanians. Many of those Greeks in Albania who are Vlachs identify themselves Greek by the wish. There are also Arvanites who are aware of their Albanian origin but they don't identify for main reasons such as: for the sake of Greek government, they feel assimilated plus Albanians are mainly Islamized and backwards and don't want to associate themselves with us.

I know two who are Vlachs. One of them lives in Germany and brags about this ''Greekness''. He is a writer. This is what he actually says:
[I]''Do you have a library there near close you? Take a book and read who[I] are the Greeks[/I] ... ''[/I] etc etc etc.

It seemed suspicious that they are of Wallachian origin ... like how can someone brag this way about something that is not even his? Then I found out the he has already admitted being a Vlach who feels Greek. He still brags though ...

tchaiku 04-15-2017 04:36 AM

After the fall of the Byzantine Empire, the Ottomans considered the Greeks and Vlachs one nation (milet) until 1905, although some early references differentiate among them. The villages of Pindus date from the 17th century *51 and were possibly founded for safety from persecutions. From that time there is some evidence regarding the relations between Greeks *52 and Vlachs. During the 18th century, Greeks and Vlachs coexisted abroad; documents and references of associations in Hungary, Vienna, or Romania do not differentiate between the two. But there were disputes in 1790-1810 in Hungary regarding the language in church. The negative reaction to the request that the mass be chanted in Vlach as well as in Greek split the community of Pesti (Hungary) in 1809. *53 In 1905, when disputes in Macedonia increased, the Ottoman Empire declared the Vlachs a separate nation, partly to divide the Christians. *54

51 Winnifrith 2002.

52 Aristotle mentions the term ‘Grekos’ in his Meteorologica, and so did other ancient writers, as an older name for Hellenas. The Romans used it extensively (Christou, p. 105).

53 Siokis 2002a.

54 P. Rizal (Joseph Nehama, 1914, p. 185 Greek translation) « Greeks and Serbs unite against the Turks.. Hilmi Pasha strengthens an old adversary, the Koutsovlachs, who protected by the Sultan and strengthened by the Bucharest government stop calling themselves Greek and fight ferociously against the Greek influence.»

[url]http://www.farsarotul.org/nl26_1.htm[/url]

Carlin 04-16-2017 08:19 AM

Interesting that there is a massif called [B]Anavlochos[/B] located in Crete.

Anavlochos=Anovlochos=Upper Vlach / Vloch.

[I]The Anavlochos massif is located in Crete, in the region of Mirambello, a hinge area between central Crete and eastern Crete. It consists of a long North-West / South-East ridge of dolomitic limestone that overlooks the village of Vrachasi, established on its southern slope.[/I]

Some links -

[url]http://www.efa.gr/index.php/fr/recherche/sites-de-fouilles/crete/l-anavlochos[/url]

[url]http://www.cretanbeaches.com/en/history-of-crete/archaeological-sites-in-crete/the-dark-age-dorians-and-eteocretans/ancient-anavlochos[/url]

Anovlochos:
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=GCj09AmtvvwC&pg=PA261&dq=anovlochos&hl=fr&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=anovlochos&f=false[/url]


Similar (same) toponyms can be found in Thessaly, Aetolia/Acarnania.

[url]https://www.google.ca/webhp?hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWwIaLhKnTAhXH3YMKHS46BHYQPAgD#hl=fr&q=%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%89+%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82[/url]

[url]https://www.google.ca/search?hl=fr&biw=1295&bih=614&site=webhp&q=%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82+%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B4%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B1%CF%82&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiF1d2xhKnTAhWT0YMKHfYLA_MQ1QIIfygA[/url]

[url]https://www.google.ca/search?hl=fr&biw=1295&bih=614&site=webhp&q=%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82+%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%82&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiF1d2xhKnTAhWT0YMKHfYLA_MQ1QIIgAEoAQ[/url]


[I][B]Dolopia, now called Anovlachia, was properly reckoned part of Epirus.[/B][/I]

[url]http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D3[/url]



--> [I][SIZE="3"]The name of [B]Vlochs[/B] was given by the Slavs to the Celtic and Pelasgic peoples.[/SIZE][/I]

Page 7:
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=NMsGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=Vlochs&source=bl&ots=7NwJnHlAC_&sig=Qp5oRnsw8MLFnIkYcZRfRrwGkp4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKif-JoKLTAhUU8mMKHRv_DIYQ6AEIPDAF#v=onepage&q=Vlochs&f=false[/url]

Carlin 04-16-2017 08:31 AM

K. Sathas discovered in the archives of the Venetian republic documents and decrees that talk about Arvanite migrations. Accordingly, on 30.04.[B]1541[/B], [B]it was decided by the Venetian senate to settle Arvanites in Crete[/B], Zakynthos, Kefalonia and Corfu.

Carlin 04-16-2017 11:13 AM

[U]Erotokritos[/U]

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotokritos[/url]
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA132&dq=Erotokritos+Vlachs&hl=fr&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Erotokritos%20Vlachs&f=false[/url]

Erotokritos (Greek: Ἐρωτόκριτος) is a romance composed by Vikentios (Vitsentzos, "Vincenzo", Vincent) Kornaros in early 17th century Crete. It consists of 10,012 fifteen-syllable rhymed verses, the last twelve of which refer to the poet himself.

The play takes place in ancient Athens, but the world displayed is a complex construct which does not correspond to any particular historical period. Alongside references to classical Greece there are anachronisms and many elements peculiar to Western Europe, such as the jousting competition. The work is divided in the following five parts.

The poet narrates the trials and tribulations suffered by two young lovers, Erotokritos and Aretousa, daughter of Heracles, King of Athens.

After several years of marriage, a daughter (Aretousa) is born to the King of Athens (Heracles) and his wife. The son of the faithful adviser to the king (Erotokritos) falls in love with the princess.

Aretousa refuses to consider any marriage proposals and is imprisoned by the king alongside her faithful nanny. After three years, when the [B]Vlachs[/B] besiege Athens, Erotokritos reappears, his true identity concealed through magic. In a battle he saves the life of the king and gets wounded in the process.


Thus, an echo of the Vlachs is inherent in "Erotokritos", and in the short songs (Του Μικρού Βλαχόπουλου), in the "Chronicle of Morea" (Χρονικό του Μωρέως).

tchaiku 04-16-2017 11:17 AM

Slavs retreated Pindos mountains, western Crete, Laconia* in 11th century [I]according [/I]to this book:
[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=mQYXAQAAIAAJ&q=slavs+pindos+mountains+s+retreat&dq=slavs+pindos+mountains+s+retreat&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL2eWAr6nTAhUBOhQKHby3CooQ6AEIJDAA[/url]
Mysteriously Vlachs appear in those zones times after.


* - Keep in your mind that Slavs according to Byzantine historians ruled Peloponnese for over 200 years, so it puts things on perspective. Also it is fair to mention that non Slavic population start appearing in those zones after ''Hellenization'' of those Slavs.

Carlin 04-16-2017 11:22 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167823]Slavs retreated Pindos mountains, western Crete, Laconia* in 11th century [I]according [/I]to this book:
[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=mQYXAQAAIAAJ&q=slavs+pindos+mountains+s+retreat&dq=slavs+pindos+mountains+s+retreat&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL2eWAr6nTAhUBOhQKHby3CooQ6AEIJDAA[/url]
Mysteriously Vlachs appear in those zones times after.


* - Keep in your mind that Slavs according to Byzantine historians ruled Peloponnese for over 200 years, so it puts things on perspective. Also it is fair to mention that non Slavic population start appearing in those zones after ''Hellenization'' of those Slavs.[/QUOTE]

Good find. :thumbup:

tchaiku 04-17-2017 08:13 AM

The Vlachs of Thessaly first appear in Byzantine sources in the 11th century, in the Strategikon of Kekaumenos and Anna Komnene's Alexiad. Kekaumenos, who wrote in the late 1070s, in particular stresses both their [B]transhumanism as well as their disdain of imperial authorities[/B].

Kekaumenos records a failed [B]Vlach uprising of 1066, under the unwilling leadership of Nikoulitzas Delphinas[/B], a relative of his and grandson of the original Nikoulitzas, whom Emperor Basil II (r. 976–1025) placed to rule over the Thessalian Vlachs.

Anna Komnene reports a Vlach [U][B]settlement [/B][/U]near[B] Mount Ossa in 1083[/B], in connection with the campaign of her father, Alexios I Komnenos (r. 1081–1118), against the Normans

Carlin 04-17-2017 11:52 PM

From Capital to Colony: Five New Inscriptions from Roman Crete
[url]https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/annual-of-the-british-school-at-athens/article/from-capital-to-colony-five-new-inscriptions-from-roman-crete1/93948C0CC6BD944FC17D0B297EB6BE19[/url]

This article present and contextualises five new inscriptions from central Crete: one from the hinterland of Gortyn, two from Knossos, and two more in all likelihood from Knossos. Internal geographical mobility from Gortyn to Knossos is illustrated by a Greek inscription from the hinterland of Gortyn. The Knossian inscriptions add new evidence for the local affairs of the [B]Roman colony[/B]. A funerary or honorary inscription and two religious dedications – [B]all three in Latin[/B] – give rise to new points concerning the [B]well-attested link between Knossos and Campania[/B]. [B]The colony's population included people, many of Campanian origin[/B], who were already established in Crete, as well as [B]families displaced from southern Italy in the great post-Actium settlement[/B]. The two religious dedications shed light on the city's religious practice, including a newly revealed cult of Castor, and further evidence for worship of the Egyptian gods. Oddest of all, a Greek inscription on a Doric epistyle names Trajan or Hadrian. These four inscriptions are then set into the context of linguistic choice at the colony. Epigraphic and numismatic evidence for the use of Latin and Greek in the life of the colony is analyzed on the basis of the available inscriptions, listed by category and date in an appendix.


Campania
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campania[/url]

Map showing the "roman coloniae" in the second century, after Trajan
[url]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg[/url]

Check out the concentration in Greece (including Crete), Macedonia and Albania when compared to other European regions and areas. Moreover, note that [I]modern Romania[/I] is completely empty of "roman coloniae". Also, Sardinia and Corsica seem relatively untouched when compared to either Macedonia or Greece.

Looking at this map it should not be surprising that "Vlach-speakers" emerge in [I]Byzantine times[/I] 'from' all over Greece, Macedonia, and Albania, comprising the bulk and majority in many different regions.

tchaiku 04-18-2017 11:48 AM

In these times, their migratory lifestyle earned them a bad reputation. In 980 emperor Basil II conferred the dominion over the Vlachs of Thessaly on one Nicoulitza. The Vlachs in Thessaly and parts of Macedonia became very numerous [U][B]during the 11th century[/B][/U] revolt of the Vlachs in 1066 under their chieftain Verivoi, as attested by the Byzantine historian Kekaumenos, would provide total independence. As Kekaumenos records, a first revolt against imperial rule occurred in 1066, but it was not until after the collapse of the Empire in the Fourth Crusade that the Vlachs would s[B]et up their own, autonomous, [U]principality [/U][/B]- "[I]Great Wallachia[/I]". The chronicles of Nicetas Choniates, Benjamin of Tudela,[2] Geoffroy de Villehardouin, Henri de Valenciennes, Robert de Clary, and other sources account for the existence of this state, comprising Thessaly, as opposed to other two "Wallachias", "[I]Little Wallachia[/I]" in Acarnania and Aetolia, and an "[I]Upper Wallachia[/I]" in Epirus. This coincides with the period of the first Vlachian state entities across the Balkan Peninsula: Great Wallachia, Wallachia and Moldavia. Benjamin of Tudela, a Spanish Jew who visited Thessaly in 1173, describes the Vlachs as living in the mountains and coming down from them to [B]attack the [U]Greeks[/U][/B]. In relation with the Byzantine Empire, he adds: "[B][U]no Emperor can conquer them[/U][/B]".

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Aromanians[/url]

D. Seward and S. Mountgarret - Byzantium: A Journey and a Guide; Harrap, London 1985 (p.183 etc.): Metsovo is the Greek capital of this shepherd race. After the Empire's temporary collapse in 1204 the Vlachs even set up their own kingdom of Great Wallachia
Jump up ^ Libro de Viages de Benjamin de Tudela, Volume VIII, p. 63.
Jump up ^ Libro de Viages de Benjamin de Tudela.

Amphipolis 04-18-2017 01:30 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167843] As Kekaumenos records, a first revolt against imperial rule occurred in 1066, but it was not until after the collapse of the Empire in the Fourth Crusade that the Vlachs would s[B]et up their own, autonomous, [U]principality [/U][/B]- "[I]Great Wallachia[/I]". The chronicles of Nicetas Choniates, Benjamin of Tudela,[2] Geoffroy de Villehardouin, Henri de Valenciennes, Robert de Clary, and other sources account for the existence of this state, comprising Thessaly, as opposed to other two "Wallachias", "[I]Little Wallachia[/I]" in Acarnania and Aetolia, and an "[I]Upper Wallachia[/I]" in Epirus. [/QUOTE]

Cough, cough. Really? That sounds great. And what was the name of this principality? Was it "Great Wallachia"? Who was the king? What was its' policy? And how long did it last?

tchaiku 04-18-2017 01:58 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167844]Cough, cough. Really? That sounds great. And what was the name of this principality? Was it "Great Wallachia"? Who was the king? What was its' policy? And how long did it last?[/QUOTE]

That means that those Vlachs were so unruly towards Greeks (Romans) and Byzantine Empire that they wanted complete independence. This is also useful when it comes to Carlin's claims about Byzantine Empire being called Aromania.

So it indicates that they were a product of a migration and foreign to the empire.

Carlin 04-18-2017 08:46 PM

When Stefan Dušan conquered lands all the way up to Duchy of Athens, he called himself "Count of Vlachia." Settlements of Vlachs are also mentioned at that time in [B]Euboea[/B], the [B]Peloponnese[/B] and [B]even Crete[/B].

Source:
[I]Даскалов, Георги, Армъните в Гърция, Университетско издателство "Св. Климент Охридски", София, 2005, page 21[/I]

Carlin 04-18-2017 08:57 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167844]Cough, cough. Really? That sounds great. And what was the name of this principality? Was it "Great Wallachia"? Who was the king? What was its' policy? And how long did it last?[/QUOTE]

Please take a look at my post #426 on this same thread, and let me know if you need detailed translation.

As per the scan #426:
- Thessaly used to be called 'Great Vlachia' or 'Megali Vlachia', with the capital Larissa.
- The Chronicle of Epirus refers to 'Great Vlachia' as 'Greco-Vlachia'.
- 'Great Vlachia' was a [I]strong state[/I] during the decades of its ruler "Jovan I" (as written in Serbian), which was between 1258 and 1296.
- This Vlach state was under frequent attacks from Serbian rulers, as even the archbishop Danilo* noted - how king Milutin went with his army in order to conquer and plunder "drzhavu zemlye [U]Vlahiotske[/U]".

(Drzhava = state, Zemlya = country)

* - Danilo II: Zhivoti kraljeva i arhiepiskopa srpskih, izdao Djura Danicic Zagreb 1866, page 114.

Carlin 04-22-2017 06:13 AM

I am not aware of coming across this before - so I'm adding it here. It is found in a Bulgarian book, written by Yordan Ivanov.

[U]Footnote 3[/U] (the text in Greek) basically states that [I]the [B]Sklavini [/B]devastated all Thessaly, nearby islands and those of Helada, also the Cyclades along with entire Achaia, Epirus, the bigger part of Illyricum and part of Asia[/I].

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/1_zpszjupngyg.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/1_zpszjupngyg.png[/IMG][/URL]

tchaiku 04-22-2017 07:31 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167885]I am not aware of coming across this before - so I'm adding it here. It is found in a Bulgarian book, written by Yordan Ivanov.

[U]Footnote 3[/U] (the text in Greek) basically states that [I]the [B]Sklavini [/B]devastated all Thessaly, nearby islands and those of Helada, also the Cyclades along with entire Achaia, Epirus, the bigger part of Illyricum and part of Asia[/I].

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/1_zpszjupngyg.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/1_zpszjupngyg.png[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]

Good find. So Vlachs settled there later.

Carlin 04-22-2017 07:37 AM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/123_zpswn9kkgiw.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/123_zpswn9kkgiw.png[/IMG][/URL]

tchaiku 04-23-2017 02:38 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167771][B][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]SLAVS IN MIDDLE AGES
[/COLOR]
[/I]
a) Mazaris wrote:

[B][I]«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].
[/I]
"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).
[/B]
[/QUOTE]

Μάζαρις (Mazaris) :

«[I][B]Δέδοικα ουν ίνα μη γένωμαι και αυτός διατρίβων εν Σπάρτη ώσπερ εν τη Κωνσταντίνου γέγονεν ο Πελοποννήσιος εκείνος, Συναδινός ο Κορμέας, ή ίνα μη βαρβαρωθώ και αυτός ώσπερ άρα βεβαρβάρωνταί γε οι Λάκωνες, και νυν κέκληνται Τζάκωνες, και πιάσον τα και σφίξον τα, και δώσον τα, και ήμενον, και ηρχόντησαν, και καθεζούτησαν, και έλαδε, πα, και αιτιτοίωσέν (ετετοίωσέν) τον, και άλλ’ άττα βάρβαρα λέγουσιν[/B][/I]» [Μάζαρις 1831, 164 και Μάζαρις 1860, 230].


Google Translate:
"I do not know what I am, and he is in Sparta while Constantine is the Peloponnesian who is, the Syrian of Kormeas, or is not barbarous, and hence [B][U]the barbarians of the Laconians[/U][/B], and now Jacokes are called, and as long as they tighten them, They gave birth to them, and they lived, and they departed, and received, and cried out, and [B][U]another barbarous word.[/U][/B] "[Mavaris 1831, 164 and Mavaris 1860, 230].

Carlin 04-23-2017 09:01 AM

Mazaris described the characteristic features of each one of the ethnic groups in the Peloponnese.

The Laconians, he says, were known for their "vanity and perfidy... their tendency toward slander and blackmail, their bragging and drunkenness, their utter miserliness and low cunning". The Slavs were cruel, savage, brutal, bloodthirsty, known for their "robbery and barbarity, their hatred of the powers that be, their hatred of God". The Albanians (the text has Illyrians) influenced others by "their deceit and spying, their brutal methods of levying taxes, their soberness in the matter of clothing and luxuries... their thievishness, their fickleness, and their sly, crooked ways".

The "Laconians", or "Tsacones", were a people whose origin was associated with the invasion of the peninsula by the "Slavs".

The existence of Jewish communities at the time of Mazaris is well known, and the evidence for the significant presence of Gypsies is very good. The information about the Gypsies in the region of Nauplion and in Modon is particularly detailed (=> George C. Soulis, "The Gypsies in the Byzantine Empire and the Balkans in the Late Middle Ages", Dumbarton Oaks Papers 15 (1961), 152-154).

Returning to the Slavs - the historian Menander in one fragment wrote: "While Hellas was pillaged by the Slavs and successive perils gathered against her from every side, Tiberius, who did not have capable forces to fight, not even against one detachment of his enemies... sent an embassy to the prince of the Avars".

Another source of evidence consists of two entries in the Latin chronicle of John of Biclar. One of these entries reads: "... the Avars were driven from the borders of Thrace and occupied parts of Greece (Graecia) and Pannonia."

And the other: "The people of the Slavs devastated Illyricum and Thrace".

[I]On the demography of medieval Greece : a problem solved[/I]
Peter Charanis

[B]Link[/B]:
[url]https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/view/5113[/url]

tchaiku 04-23-2017 09:09 AM

Isidore of Kiev referred to Laconians as barbaric according to Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium.

tchaiku 04-23-2017 10:43 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167906]
The "Laconians", or "Tsacones", were a people whose origin was ultimately associated with the invasion of the peninsula by the "Slavs". (Charanis though considers "Tsacones" as descendants of [I]ancient Hellenes[/I].)[/QUOTE]

How so? Can you explain in details?

Carlin 04-23-2017 04:25 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167912]How so? Can you explain in details?[/QUOTE]

Here are the quotes from Charanis (which I do not endorse):

- "The Laconians were the particular group of Greek speakers, the inhabitants of the mountain regions of eastern Peloponnese, often referred to by late Byzantine writers also as Tsacones and [B]whose origin was associated with the invasion of the peninsula by the Slavs[/B]. The Peloponnesians must be identified with the general Greek speaking populations found throughout the empire, numerically the strongest element of its population as a whole, the [I]Romaioi[/I] of the Byzantine texts."

- "To what extent the Greek speakers of the Peloponnese represented the old native stock is a question which is, of course, most difficult, if not impossible to answer, but there can be no doubt that they included the remnants of that stock."

[url]https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/view/5113[/url]
[U]
Would you be able to provide the citation from Isidore of Kiev regarding the [I]barbaric[/I] Laconians?[/U]

Carlin 04-23-2017 05:39 PM

What was the scale and impact of Roman colonization and immigration into Peloponnese & Greece? I am usually told, and hear, that the impact was minimal and that the number of colonists was not large (and that those who arrived were almost immediately hellenized).

[I][B]Processes of Cultural Change and Integration in the Roman World[/B][/I]
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=VDkLCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Roman+soldiers+settle+Patras+Corinth&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Roman%20soldiers%20settle%20Patras%20Corinth&f=false[/url]

Page 154: This paper presents the results of such context-specific case study. It focuses on the city of [B]Patras[/B], which was [B]colonized by Augustus in 14 B.C[/B]. [B]Colonization entailed a [U]massive influx of foreigners[/U] into the city[/B], among them [B]a large number of Roman army veterans.[/B]

Page 156: The [B]colonization[/B] of Patras took place in the context of the reorganization of Greece that was s[B]tarted by Caesar and continued by Augustus[/B].

Page 158: The settlement of veterans from Antony's legions after the battle of Actium must have posed a serious problem for Augustus, since, according to some estimations, [B]there were about [U]35,000[/U] veterans[/B] who had to be accommodated; [B]Patras was just one destination[/B] for the veterans. ...... [B]A third wave of immigration[/B] has been suggested by Keppie and Rizakis ........ The process of [B]large-scale immigration[/B] entailed major disruptions to local society. In the case of Patras the act of [B]colonization and the immigration of thousands of colonists[/B] led to a radical overthrow of the established order of things.





Who were then the medieval [I]Romaioi[/I] and [I]Tsacones[/I] of Peloponnese?

Carlin 04-23-2017 07:47 PM

[I]The History of Leo the Deacon: Byzantine Military Expansion in the Tenth Century[/I], by Leo (the Deacon)
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=RCDsV41k8A0C&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=Armenians+Romans+other+rabble+Crete&source=bl&ots=dR2lQ_TkLQ&sig=nHLwExgOmJAGaSclGL7RlQ4ZDuk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiU_ve-7LvTAhUG0YMKHe9kAG0Q6AEIKDAB#v=onepage&q=Armenians%20Romans%20other%20rabble%20Crete&f=false[/url]

Page 46 -

At II:8 Leo says that Phokas settled Crete after its conquest with "bands of [B]Armenians[/B], [B]Romans[/B], and other rabble," reflecting the policy of providing plots of land to soldiers in return for the obligation of military service.

The quote can also be found here [I]Leonis diaconi Caloënsis Historia libri decem: et liber de Velitatione ...[/I]
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=GCMAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3&dq=%22leonis+diaconi%22&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22leonis%20diaconi%22&f=false[/url]

Interesting how in the Latin translation it states: ...contuberniis [B]Armeniorum[/B], [B]Romanorum[/B], convenarum hominum eo in coloniam deductis...

tchaiku 04-24-2017 07:42 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167919]Would you be able to provide the citation from Isidore of Kiev regarding the [I]barbaric[/I] Laconians?[/QUOTE]

No, unfortunately I cannot find any reference of him.

[url]https://www.docdroid.net/FzrTqxX/oxford-dictionary-of-byzantium-3-volumes-1991.pdf.html#page=2181[/url]

So what are your thoughts on Tsakones?

Barbaric could mean many things.

Amphipolis 04-24-2017 04:53 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167901]Μάζαρις (Mazaris) :

«[I][B]Δέδοικα ουν ίνα μη γένωμαι και αυτός διατρίβων εν Σπάρτη ώσπερ εν τη Κωνσταντίνου γέγονεν ο Πελοποννήσιος εκείνος, Συναδινός ο Κορμέας, ή ίνα μη βαρβαρωθώ και αυτός ώσπερ άρα βεβαρβάρωνταί γε οι Λάκωνες, και νυν κέκληνται Τζάκωνες, και πιάσον τα και σφίξον τα, και δώσον τα, και ήμενον, και ηρχόντησαν, και καθεζούτησαν, και έλαδε, πα, και αιτιτοίωσέν (ετετοίωσέν) τον, και άλλ’ άττα βάρβαρα λέγουσιν[/B][/I]» [Μάζαρις 1831, 164 και Μάζαρις 1860, 230].
[/QUOTE]

Actually the "vulgarisms" Mazaris presents (piason ta, doson ta, erhontissan, kathezoutisan, elade, aetitiosen etc) are totally Greek and quite... archaic. Not as archaic as the language he uses, but certainly more archaic than the demotic Greek language of that time, or present-day. That makes it clearer that Laconians/Tzaconians are not related to any foreign entity (Slavs, Vlachs, Italians or Albanians).

By the way this was written in 1410s not in the 1800s.

Carlin 04-24-2017 10:40 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167937]No, unfortunately I cannot find any reference of him.

[url]https://www.docdroid.net/FzrTqxX/oxford-dictionary-of-byzantium-3-volumes-1991.pdf.html#page=2181[/url]

So what are your thoughts on Tsakones?

Barbaric could mean many things.[/QUOTE]

Tchaiku, thanks for your question. I will reply soon.

In the meantime, I wanted to post this (unrelated to your question above, the author is Arsi Pipa) -

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Arsi%20Pipa%20-%20Albanian%20Literature2c%20Social%20Perspectives%20Pages%2072%20-%2073_zpsr3dmjsgw.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Arsi%20Pipa%20-%20Albanian%20Literature2c%20Social%20Perspectives%20Pages%2072%20-%2073_zpsr3dmjsgw.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[ Note that the Italians called the Byzantine Arberesh [B]Greci[/B]? So, WHO are then the Greci / Greeks? Isn't this a contradiction? :) ]

Carlin 04-24-2017 11:23 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167944]Actually the "vulgarisms" Mazaris presents (piason ta, doson ta, erhontissan, kathezoutisan, elade, aetitiosen etc) are totally Greek and quite... archaic. Not as archaic as the language he uses, but certainly more archaic than the demotic Greek language of that time, or present-day. That makes it clearer that Laconians/Tzaconians are not related to any foreign entity (Slavs, Vlachs, Italians or Albanians).

By the way this was written in 1410s not in the 1800s.[/QUOTE]

[B]ZACHONIE VEL SLAVONIE[/B]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Stamatis%20Katsaros2C%20Les%20Tzakones_zpsytaij48i.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Stamatis%20Katsaros2C%20Les%20Tzakones_zpsytaij48i.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

In the above-mentioned text, derived from the book "Les Tsakones" by Stamatis Caratzas, an extract from a text that was first published in the 1st volume of K. Sathas' paper has been highlighted "Documents inédits relatifs à l'histoire de la Grèce au moyen âge", that is, in exactly the same volume in which he first formulated his theory of Slavic movements. In the highlighted text it appears that [B]the Venetians who wrote it reported in [U]1485[/U] the area of ​​Tsakonia as Slavonia[/B] (Tsakonia = Slavonia).

What is behind this? In 1464 the Venetians took control of Monemvasia and the surrounding area, which they held until 1540, although around 1500 they lost the rural area around the castle. This particular text, issued in 1485, is an order referring to the area around the castle of Monemvasia, which is again referred to Tsakonia as Slavonia. This order forbids the introduction of salt in this area from the area of ​​Glarenza, which in 1485, when it was written, was held by the Turks.

So it is certain that K. Sathas knew the existence of such Venetian texts. And that means that it is really a mystery because he finally proceeded to formulate his theory. Even if he thought the Byzantines were not (unintentionally unwittingly) accurate in this matter, he could never assume that the Venetians were equally inaccurate in their own references.

Thoughts? Why was Tsakonia referred to as Slavonia by the Venetians in 1485?

If, like you state, the Tsakonians are not related to any foreign entity (i.e. the Slavs, in this specific case) - why is Tsakonia referred to as Slavonia?

tchaiku 04-25-2017 12:34 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167944]Actually the "vulgarisms" Mazaris presents (piason ta, doson ta, erhontissan, kathezoutisan, elade, aetitiosen etc) are totally Greek and quite... archaic. Not as archaic as the language he uses, but certainly more archaic than the demotic Greek language of that time, or present-day. That makes it clearer that Laconians/Tzaconians are not related to any foreign entity (Slavs, Vlachs, Italians or Albanians).[/QUOTE]

Can you be more clear?

tchaiku 04-25-2017 12:39 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167949][B]ZACHONIE VEL SLAVONIE[/B]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Stamatis%20Katsaros2C%20Les%20Tzakones_zpsytaij48i.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Stamatis%20Katsaros2C%20Les%20Tzakones_zpsytaij48i.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

In the above-mentioned text, derived from the book "Les Tsakones" by Stamatis Caratzas, an extract from a text that was first published in the 1st volume of K. Sathas' paper has been highlighted "Documents inédits relatifs à l'histoire de la Grèce au moyen âge", that is, in exactly the same volume in which he first formulated his theory of Slavic movements. In the highlighted text it appears that [B]the Venetians who wrote it reported in [U]1485[/U] the area of ​​Tsakonia as Slavonia[/B] (Tsakonia = Slavonia).

What is behind this? In 1464 the Venetians took control of Monemvasia and the surrounding area, which they held until 1540, although around 1500 they lost the rural area around the castle. This particular text, issued in 1485, is an order referring to the area around the castle of Monemvasia, which is again referred to Tsakonia as Slavonia. This order forbids the introduction of salt in this area from the area of ​​Glarenza, which in 1485, when it was written, was held by the Turks.

So it is certain that K. Sathas knew the existence of such Venetian texts. And that means that it is really a mystery because he finally proceeded to formulate his theory. Even if he thought the Byzantines were not (unintentionally unwittingly) accurate in this matter, he could never assume that the Venetians were equally inaccurate in their own references.

Thoughts? Why was Tsakonia referred to as Slavonia by the Venetians in 1485?

If, like you state, the Tsakonians are not related to any foreign entity (i.e. the Slavs, in this specific case) - why is Tsakonia referred to as Slavonia?[/QUOTE]

Can you quote the citation in english and elaborate? The text does not directly indicate that Tsakones are Slavs, for example just as '' Slavs in Germany'' does not mean that Germans are Slavs.

Amphipolis 04-25-2017 04:07 PM

I'm sorry what is the Sathas theory?

If Tzaconia once covered all SE Peloponnese, it's clear that Tzacones were gradually limited to a small part of middle-East Peloponnese (as we can see in the famous map of 1800s). As for the area below (where Monemvasia is) it seems it was populated by other Greeks and Albanians.

As for Slavs, I'm not sure I remember where the last Slavs were located (by 1400s) or when they are last mentioned (I think Celebi didn't find any in the 1600s).

The nine phrases/verbs Mazaris mentions are in a Greek dialect, a distortion of ancient Greek, yet very close to Medieval and present-day vernacular Greek.

Amphipolis 04-25-2017 05:32 PM

(Answering some of my questions myself)

(Not sure how but) William Miller believes the Slavs were two distincts groups located as follows:

-Ezerites at Elos (this is at the Laconian Gulf between the middle and right finger of Peloponnese)

-Melingi at Taygetos Mountain (this mountain covers the middle finger of Peloponnese).

Carlin 04-25-2017 06:54 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167964]Can you quote the citation in english and elaborate? The text does not directly indicate that Tsakones are Slavs, for example just as '' Slavs in Germany'' does not mean that Germans are Slavs.[/QUOTE]

I agree, but it says [U]Tsakonia [B]or[/B] Slavonia[/U]. As an example, if the Venetians happened to arrive and colonize Bavaria - and mention in an official document Bavaria [U]or Slavonia[/U] (Sclavonia), what would you think? Wouldn't you think this is a reason to at least explore this a bit further, or to ask why does Bavaria=Slavonia in the eyes of the Venetians? (It doesn't mean that Germans are Slavs though.)

The full translation of the highlighted text is:
[I]
It is forbidden to the Venetians and subjects of the Republic to transport salt ... from Glarenza/Clarence and elsewhere to [B]Tzaconia or Sclavonia[/B].[/I]

Carlin 04-25-2017 08:01 PM

[U]More ramblings on the Tzakonians/Tzakonia[/U]

I have already written/added material regarding Tzakonia and Tzakonians that can be found in these threads:

1) [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=405[/url]
2) [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6633&page=6[/url]

To summarize from various books and sources (I will not explicitly list the names of all the authors - all can be found in the above two threads including citations and screenshots):

- The Venetian documents mention Albanians in Tzaconia.
- The Mardaites inhabited the territory of Monemvasia, or modern Tzaconia.
- Like 'Mardaite', the word 'Tzacon' did not mean a [I]people[/I], but a category of [I]soldiers[/I].
- According to historian Sathas: the [I]ancient Tzaconians[/I] belong to [B]Albanian[/B] sailors of Kranidi, Hydra.
- Philippson admits that Slavic colonies existed in Vatika also, that is to say south of the fortress of Tzaconia and close to Monemvasia. Some Slavic place names reinforce this supposition.
- As per Chalkokondyles and geographer Meletios, the regions of Taygetos, land of Laconia, and promontory of Tenaron were long inhabited by Romani (that is, Vlachs / Armanoi).
- The Vlachs / Armanoi have been variously called by different writers and in different places by a variety of names: Maniati, [B]Laconi[/B], Bui, Megalovlahiti, Dasareti, Meteori, etc.
- Stam. C. Caratzas states that "Two indications argue for the existence of a relationship between Tzacones and Vlachs in popular poetry."
- Per author F. Curta, the "Tzakonians" appear to have been settled in the Peloponnesus in the course of the ninth and tenth century. The viewpoint that the Tzakonians were settled in the Peloponnesus, from elsewhere, is also supported and shared by the author Stamatis C. Caratzas. There exists a legend which states that Tzakonians originate from Macedonia, namely from the area of Chalkidiki peninsula - and specifically, from the vicinity of Mount Athos district (Holy Mountain).
- Evliya Tchelebi compares the physical features of the inhabitants of Tzaconia between Molai and Monemvasia, to those of Tatar-Kalmyks.
- Investigator Katsanis: "The Tsakonian was influenced without doubt by the Aromanian tongue."
- In village Geraki of Laconia the words ‘κρούσκος/krouskos=relation by marriage’ and ‘τάτας/tatas=father’ correspond to Aromanian ‘cúscru’ and ‘táta’. ‘Γκάλμπινος/galmpinos/ in Greek idioms of the Peloponnese and Epirus means 'blond’, ‘pale yellow’, ‘sallow’, ‘gook’, while ‘galbinu’ is the ‘yellow’ in Aromanian."
- In the petition of Monembasiotes (1527), the nearby residents of Monemvasia are named Vlachs (Βλάχοι).

As a result, in a small area such as Tzakonia we have explicit testimonies and references to a few different ethno-linguistic groups: Vlachs, Slavs, Albanians, Mardaites, etc.

Furthermore -
[url]http://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-5598_1963_num_21_1_1311?q=ahrweiler%20tzakon[/url]

- The ζακα-σακα terms are identical: both are forms of the same word, surely a foreign term, as shown by the vacillation that marked its transcription in Greek, gender (ό σάκας, ή ζάκα, τό σάκα) and declination (ή ζαζ -κός, ο σάκας -α, το σάκα -α), and the expression τό λεγόμενον or καλούμενον σάκα constant in texts that mention the term, which usually introduces a foreign word. A. Dain, who dedicated a note to σάκα (29), attached to the word Arabic saqat.

- The Arabic term (saqat) is the procession mounted prince.

- To sum up: it seems that the term ζάκα-σάκα (Arabic term and not Greek, as Sathas previously thought), designating the guard, the procession mounted prince comes through the non-certified form ζάκων- σάκων the τζάκων τσάκων-term, designating one who stands guard. The transformation of σ-ζ in τζ-τσ early in a foreign word is in common purpose in the transcription of the word in Greek (include for example: ζεμπίλι-τσεμπίλί, Ζανής-Τζανής, Ζαμαν- δός-Τζαμανδός , Σαούσης-Τζαούσης, Ζαμπουρνίζω-τσαμπουρνίζω, etc.).


I have a few more points to make, but leave it at that for now.

Carlin 04-25-2017 08:26 PM

The following figure illustrates page 80 of a short dictionary published in Venice in 1827 and known under the title Nuovo Dizionario Geografico Portatile (New Geographical Dictionary, Portable).

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Nuovo%20Dizionario%20Geografico%20Portatile%20%20page%2080_zpspdvl5o0x.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Nuovo%20Dizionario%20Geografico%20Portatile%20%20page%2080_zpspdvl5o0x.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

The above dictionary is a summary of a much larger work of the Danish geographer of the 19th century, Malte Brun, which was written around 1812. In the above picture, with a yellow mark, the dictionary for a region of the Peloponnese appears. From the name one can easily understand which area it is.

In addition, the entry refers to both the number of inhabitants of the area (40,000) at the time of the original work (1812) and its "ethnological recommendation" (in the view of the dictionary writer).

Specifically, it is reported that there was a mixture in that area (mescuglio = mixture in the Venetian language) of [B]Spartani[/B] and [B]Slavs[/B] ([B]Schiavoni[/B] = Slavs in the Venetian language) at that time.

("Albanians", "Vlachs", "Greeks", "Mardaites" are all absent. And who were these [I]Spartani[/I]?)


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