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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

Amphipolis 04-26-2017 08:37 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167972]

In addition, the entry refers to both the number of inhabitants of the area (40,000) at the time of the original work (1812) and its "ethnological recommendation" (in the view of the dictionary writer).

Specifically, it is reported that there was a mixture in that area (mescuglio = mixture in the Venetian language) of [B]Spartani[/B] and [B]Slavs[/B] ([B]Schiavoni[/B] = Slavs in the Venetian language) at that time.

("Albanians", "Vlachs", "Greeks", "Mardaites" are all absent. And who were these [I]Spartani[/I]?)[/QUOTE]

Spartani means... Spartans. You can't expect much. This is a generic dictionary so it draws basic information from other sources. Based on the various terms we've seen may times in this thread it could mean Peloponnesians, Maniotes (specifically as this is about Mani), I don't think this one refers to Tzaconians (who are also called Lacedaemonians, Laconians or Spartans).

Amphipolis 04-26-2017 09:11 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167975]- Akropolites' use of [I]Rhomaioi[/I] (and.. [I]'Latins' for 'Lakonians'[/I]?)[/QUOTE]

This is a translation mistake (Latins instead of Laconians) of this Bonn Edition as explained in page 382.

Carlin 04-26-2017 10:05 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167999]So this refers to two places or one with two alternate names? Are there other sources mentioning this Venetian Sclavonia?[/QUOTE]

This seems to refer to one place: Tzaconia [B][U]or[/U][/B] Sclavonia.

Greek author Amantos refused to accept that this testimony refers to the same country or region.

There is another testimony, which I already shared on this forum, which states: [I]Ad partes [U]Zachoniae vel Sclavoniae[/U] de Romania[/I] -- Maggior Consiglio, Deliberazioni. Zaneta, Pilosus [B]1287-1299[/B], c. 361 [B]Archives de Venise[/B].

The Venetian Chancery continued to call the department of Monemvasia or Tzaconia [B]Sclavonia[/B] until the fifteenth century. This denomination could have been a loan though - but we have seen that it was already circulating in the time of Saint Willibald.

Saint Willibald (723 AD) assigned to the department of Tzaconia the denomination of [I]terra Slavinia[/I], and this was centuries before the terms Tzaconia and Tzaconians even begin to take shape.

Carlin 04-26-2017 11:17 PM

Hi Amphipolis,

[I]1. At some point, Albanians DO live at the area that is called Tzaconia. That doesn’t mean the two groups are one, they were never confused.[/I]

I don’t necessarily disagree with you but there are quite a few [I]contradictions[/I], [I]confusions[/I] and [I]unclear[/I] references. [B]* - See below.[/B]


[I]2. Really? When? Were these Mardaites Albanians?[/I]

9th century. Post #10 in the following thread -
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=405[/url]

[I]Hard[/I] to know if these Mardaites were Albanians. It is a distinct possibility.


[I]3. Not after a while, as we can see. Everyone (for some reason) doesn’t avoid to single them out as a distinct linguistic group, not a social one.[/I]

Yes, and they are classified separately and distinguished even from the Greeks. As we saw, B. Randolph wrote that "THE Inhabitants of the Morea, are Turks, Greeks, Albaneses and T'Zackonians."

As a result, the Tzaconians can’t be confused with Greeks. This indicates they may have been hellenized at some point, or even bilingual.

Or do you think Randolph made an error, and a confusion?

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6633&page=12[/url]


[I]4. LOL, I didn’t know Tzaconians or Albanians were ancient. What does this phrase mean? We want to know more.[/I]

Verbatim quote from Sathas, translated from French. Check out google books.


[I]5. Slavs existing at the south of Tzaconia, there’s no problem with that, I can’t see your point. As seen in Mazaris, Tzaconians can’t be confused with Slavs. Also, they still exist today (unlike Slavs) and we can study their language.[/I]

Ok. Speaking of their language, Valentina Fedchenko stated the following on pages 77 and 78:
--> The dialect speakers [U]maintained contacts[/U] with the mainland throughout the Middle Ages until the early part of the 19th c. As a result, [U]the isolation argument can be questioned[/U].
--> Contacts with other languages and Greek dialects are confirmed on the syncronic level by the Tsakonian [U]lexical borrowings[/U].
--> The description of Tsakonian as having traces of ancient Greek Dorian (Laconian) dialect [U]seems to be a simplified one and neglects a few facts[/U] (one of them being the fact that different 'ancient' features ascribed to Tsakonian can be found is some other Greek dialects).

[url]http://www.academia.edu/5743870/Subdialectal_diversity_in_the_Tsakonian-speaking_area_of_Arcadia[/url]


[I]6. Yes, but that is not in Tzaconia. I understand you lost these Vlachs and you can’t find them anywhere. Also, it’s clear that these Vlachs had just arrived, they were not there during Mazaris work, were they already lost during Celebi’s travels?[/I]

I thought Tzaconia encompassed a much larger territory in the distant past?

Peloponnesiaca: A Supplement to Travels in the Moréa, By William Martin Leake.
Page 336, Laconians = Tzakonians = Maniates:

".. for it is evident from the anonymous Metrical Chronicle of the Wars of the Franks in the Morea in the 13th century, that Tzakonia had then a much wider signification. Even as late as the beginning of the 18th century we find the Venetians applying the name Zaccunia to all the ancient Laconia, [U]including Mani[/U]. There remains, therefore, the strongest reason to believe that the Lakones or Tzakones mentioned by Pachymer and Gregoras [U]consisted chiefly of Maniates[/U]."

I am lost for sure. : )


[I]7. No, no, no. That’s totally wrong and should be further discussed, investigated. Maniotes or Laconians/Tzaconians were not Vlachs.[/I]

Verbatim quote from a Romanian author.


[I]8. This could be the fuzziest statement ever. Why do you keep repeating it since it means nothing? Which are these indications?[/I]

Lifted from Caratzas. I can provide futher and more detailed translations. Parts of his book can be found on google books.


[I]9. Mount Athos doesn’t have people, it is only restricted to monks.[/I]

[I]To reduce temptations to a minimum, a ban on women and female livestock has been in effect for nearly 10 centuries. The official stories carefully fail to mention the real reason why they are not allowed in the monastic state:[B] the Vlachs[/B]. For centuries, [B]the monks [U]and these nomad shepherds[/U], who went there to find winter pasture for their sheep, [U]lived side by side[/U] in relative peace.[/B]

Gradually, an increasing number of monks were “tempted” into sneaking ladies wearing men's clothes into the monasteries. “The things that occurred are shameful both to tell and to hear,” said a witness to these events.[/I]

[url]https://www.vagabond.bg/travel/foreign-travel/item/622-for-mens-eyes-only.html[/url]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=tK6OAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=women+mount+athos+vlachs&source=bl&ots=YrcZwZbR_Y&sig=WOG8EjXT5mgn2dmZ-3A-t_l5R1o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1-N762sPTAhWC6oMKHUFDBsEQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=women%20mount%20athos%20vlachs&f=false[/url]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=J6bxIhNMRn0C&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=vlachs+mount+athos&source=bl&ots=gdZQ3jJWX-&sig=vC_-oHibTK1JUIutuf004W1uq28&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC06yH2sPTAhWH2YMKHSMdBz0Q6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=vlachs%20mount%20athos&f=false[/url]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=qlU37xo9LeUC&pg=PA256&dq=vlachs+expelled+mount+athos&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3hauE3cPTAhUm94MKHarJBcUQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=vlachs%20expelled%20mount%20athos&f=false[/url]

The expelled laity / Vlachs from Mt. Athos were resettled in the Peloponnese, namely Tzaconia. Can elaborate on this.


[I]10. There’s a bit of a problem, that these areas are not inhabited by Tzaconians at the moment (remember? You had busted our balls about that) but we certainly want to know more about this passage anyway. I’m very interested in Celebi.[/I]

Post #48 in the following thread (it includes the screenshot of page 204, in French) -
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6633&page=5[/url]


[I]11. LOL, Is it without doubt because of the …
12. … huge linguistic connection presented here?[/I]

#11 was lifted from the article Waren die peloponnesischen Melinger Vlachen? by Johann Benos, where Katsanis was cited. Katsanis wrote [Κατσάνης, Ν.] 1989. Κουτσοβλάχικα και Τσακώνικα (Arumanian and Tsakonian). Ελληνική Διαλεκτολογία 1: 41-54 -- which Benos referenced, so we should check with him. Unfortunately, I am unable to find or order this book online.

#12 is a separate remark which was made by Antonis Bousboukis here:

[url]http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-relationship-of-aromanians-with.html[/url]


[I]13. Not sure what this means, but I’d like to see it again. So when are the Vlach traces finally lost?[/I]

Here - [U]page 120[/U] in the book [B]Les Tzacones[/B], [B]footnote 190[/B]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=i_vafS-PiDoC&pg=PA120&dq=Apud+Volchiam+et+alias&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNl4uA4sPTAhUM24MKHRmnDR8Q6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=Apud%20Volchiam%20et%20alias&f=false[/url]


Also here - check the footnotes, where it says: [I]Dans la petition des Monembasiotes (1527)...[/I]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=0bUdvmsCP7IC&pg=PR71&lpg=PR71&dq=Vulachi+Monembasiotes&source=bl&ots=UpKceGf2v6&sig=YGpMJbisr_AzP-6sk_10fQgWcGE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidvdGu4cPTAhUL2IMKHft1DNcQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=Vulachi%20Monembasiotes&f=false[/url]


I guess (only small, perhaps last) traces is in Cousinery’s reference in 1831 to the presence of Vlach-speakers, probably Arvanitovlachs, in the area of Argos in the Peloponnese. He reports that, after the War of Independence of 1821, he met some Vlachs, men and women, in Argos market, who told him that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the mountains around Argos. He also notes that these Vlachs spoke a Latinate language, like the Vlachs he had met in Macedonia.

[url]http://www.vlachs.gr/en/home/english/studies-on-the-vlachs/the-vlachs-metropolis-and-diaspora/the-arvanitovlachs-in-roumeli-mainland-greece[/url]



[B]* - From #1 [/B](I wonder how accurate is Sathas in his interpretations..):

[B]PAGE LXXII OF Documents inédits relatifs à l'histoire de la Grèce au Moyen âge publiés ... By Konstantinos N. Sathas[/B]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=0bUdvmsCP7IC&pg=PR72&dq=Tzaconiens+Pindus&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiO46625sPTAhWI6IMKHdofB9cQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Tzaconiens%20Pindus&f=false[/url]
[B]
French: Chalcondyle et l'archeveque Meletius pretendent que les Tzaconiens sont originaires du mont Pindus. Au temps de lempereur Cantacuzene, cette montagne appartenait aux Albanais.
[/B]
[B]English:[/B]
[B]Chalcocondyle and Archbishop Meletius claim that [U]the Tzaconians are from Mount Pindus[/U]. In the time of the Emperor Cantacuzene, this mountain belonged to the Albanians.[/B]

tchaiku 04-27-2017 06:47 AM

Mardaites, Albanians and Vlachs were Christians unlike Tsakones who were Pagans.

If they were worshiping Slavic Gods, Constantine VII wouldn't call them ''older Romans''.
They were probably worshiping Zeus/Jupiter.

Carlin 04-28-2017 01:39 PM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/MishewTitle_zpszopc9xlf.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/MishewTitle_zpszopc9xlf.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Mishew10_zpsjtsh7eki.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew10_zpsjtsh7eki.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Mishew11_zpsgsf8ouq1.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew11_zpsgsf8ouq1.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Mishew12_zpsq5zqnwur.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew12_zpsq5zqnwur.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Mishew15_zpsdhi42dim.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew15_zpsdhi42dim.png[/IMG][/URL]

Amphipolis 04-28-2017 06:52 PM

Did you know there's a village of black people in Greece? I first heard about it in the 1980s and thought of searching about them in the internet era. The village is called Avaton and is in Thrace. Back then (in less politically correct times) they were saying these blacks were so idiot that they didn't even know when/where they came from, even though they came quite recently.

The first theory was that they were African slaves of the Turks that were offered liberty during the population exchanges.

Another theory was that they were a black battalion of a European Army that stayed in Thrace after WWI.

Here's a link and pictures of them. As they say, now that they have started to mix with whites, they have become whiter/colorful. I may be wrong, but I think they are Muslims, and according to the link they come from Sudan or they were originally sold as slaves in Saudi Arabia.

[URL="http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=415642"]http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=415642[/URL]


===

Risto the Great 04-28-2017 07:36 PM

[IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew12_zpsq5zqnwur.png[/IMG]

75% slavic, 10% "new Greek", 10% "ancient" and 10% Albanian.

Almost 1000 years ago.
But pure Greek now.
:blink:

Amphipolis 04-29-2017 12:39 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;168104]
75% slavic, 10% "new Greek", 10% "ancient" and 10% Albanian.

Almost 1000 years ago.
But pure Greek now.
:blink:[/QUOTE]

LOL, If Kiepert considers 75% of the toponyms in South Greece as Slavic, I would like to see this paper and this list.

Risto the Great 04-29-2017 12:43 AM

LOL, nobody is talking about the names they use now. We all know they're pure Greek now


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