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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

vicsinad 02-19-2017 04:50 PM

What a great map depicting Macedonia as fyrom. I didn't know fyrom existed in 1769. Regardless, you shouldn't post such crap on this forum.

Amphipolis 02-19-2017 05:23 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167008]The map ignores many things, not just the [I]Vlach-Greeks[/I] in Albania. Many settlements/areas and villages seem to have been omitted. Some towns or cities which had a significant Vlach-speaking presence even before 1769 are excluded. The 'dots'/'shaded areas' on the map seem somewhat comical and the author asks us to believe and accept this was the state of Vlach ancestral group in [U]specifically[/U] 1769.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=vicsinad;167009]What a great map depicting Macedonia as fyrom. I didn't know fyrom existed in 1769. Regardless, you shouldn't post such crap on this forum.[/QUOTE]

The map is from 1997 (as seen in the legend) and refers to 1769.
Actually this is far from crap, this is a very serious effort. You can enter the book here, and see many similar maps (about 10 detailed maps per district or era). LOL, sorry it seems there's no chapter on Peloponnese.

[URL="http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900"]http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900[/URL]


===

Soldier of Macedon 02-19-2017 06:35 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167010]The map is from 1997 (as seen in the legend) and refers to 1769.
Actually this is far from crap, this is a very serious effort. You can enter the book here, and see many similar maps (about 10 detailed maps per district or era). LOL, sorry it seems there's no chapter on Peloponnese.

[URL="http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900"]http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900[/URL]


===[/QUOTE]
In future, don't post maps that refer to Macedonia by the idiotic acronym imposed by idiots from Morea. If you can't find an alternative because you're referencing a Greek website then post the statistics only. As for the Vlachs, they were more numerous than that map indicates.

vicsinad 02-19-2017 06:59 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167010]The map is from 1997 (as seen in the legend) and refers to 1769.
Actually this is far from crap, this is a very serious effort. You can enter the book here, and see many similar maps (about 10 detailed maps per district or era). LOL, sorry it seems there's no chapter on Peloponnese.

[URL="http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900"]http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900[/URL]


===[/QUOTE]

Obviously it doesn't just refer to 1769, as there was no fyrom terminology in that year. Any map that shows Macedonia as fyrom is crap.

Amphipolis 02-20-2017 01:39 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;167011]In future, don't post maps that refer to Macedonia by the idiotic acronym imposed by idiots from Morea. If you can't find an alternative because you're referencing a Greek website then post the statistics only. As for the Vlachs, they were more numerous than that map indicates.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=vicsinad;167013]Obviously it doesn't just refer to 1769, as there was no fyrom terminology in that year. Any map that shows Macedonia as fyrom is crap.[/QUOTE]

Didn't get who the idiot from Morea is. Well, you'll have to get over it about FYROM and keep from the maps what is useful for you, just as you do with Bulgarian statistics. You and me, we don't care about the Vlachs, but I posted this for Carlin who may have made more than 100 posts about Vlachs.

I would insist that these maps are very interesting. Unfortunately they are all in Greek, in this link you can see English grey scale versions of only half of these maps. Here, you can read the legends but not see the colors.

[URL="http://www.vlachs.gr/el/various-articles/chartografontas-ti-vlachiki-diaspora-sta-valkania"]http://www.vlachs.gr/el/various-articles/chartografontas-ti-vlachiki-diaspora-sta-valkania[/URL]

The maps refer to several periods and districts. They don't have numbers of people, but, for instance, main and full Vlach villages are indicated. In the book there are more (color) maps, including Thessaly and Eastern Macedonia. The book display has fullscreen, zoom and download options.

1769 is the key year of the destruction of Moschopolis which seems to have affected significantly the movements of Vlachs in the recent centuries.


==

Soldier of Macedon 02-20-2017 04:24 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167021]Didn't get who the idiot from Morea is.[/QUOTE]
Your politicians from the early 90's.
[QUOTE]Well, you'll have to get over it about FYROM.....[/QUOTE]
No, we don't have to get over it, and we won't validate that stupid acronym here.
[QUOTE].....keep from the maps what is useful for you, just as you do with Bulgarian statistics.[/QUOTE]
That's not the same thing. Sometimes it's impossible to avoid older sources due to the value of their content, but in this case you have a modern map which uses the acronym even though the period in question is during Ottoman times. Look harder and find another map or exclude the section which refers to the acronym. Next time you post such a map or links to such maps, they will be deleted. The acronym is an insult to us. Understand that and keep it in my mind when you post anything here.

Carlin 02-20-2017 04:46 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167010]The map is from 1997 (as seen in the legend) and refers to 1769.
Actually this is far from crap, this is a very serious effort. You can enter the book here, and see many similar maps (about 10 detailed maps per district or era). LOL, sorry it seems there's no chapter on Peloponnese.

[URL="http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900"]http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900[/URL]


===[/QUOTE]

I don't doubt this is a serious effort, the issue here seems to be is that this is a serious effort of [I]present[/I] (remaining) Vlach villages and culture.

The [I]current[/I] ethnographic situation is then taken and projected back into the past, to specifically 1769 (the destruction of Moschopolis), and we are asked to believe and accept the map as is.

There are many questions that arise, but I will only ask two very specific questions:

1) Why was the "[I]Probable Mijak[/I]" group included in the first map of the Vlach ancestral group in 1769? If the "Mijaks" were included (who are at best a mix of Slavophones and Vlachophones), why not include other similar groups? More importantly, and I ask this seriously, what is the evidence / facts that the "Mijaks" spoke (exclusively) Vlach in 1769?

2) Why were the Vlachs of Acarnania excluded? There are no tiny/small 'dots' of Vlachs in Acarnania. This is interesting because, number 1) does the author know the Vlachs emigrated here [U]after 1769[/U], and number 2) what is the evidence of this emigration to Acarnania after 1769?

If there was even one or two such villages at/prior to 1769, why do we not see small 'dots' in Acarnania?

... And we do know there are Vlachs in Acarnania for the following simple reason:

[I][B]The language of Acarnania's Vlachs (Karagounidhes): recording of language under disappearance[/B][/I]
[url]https://www.didaktorika.gr/eadd/handle/10442/34870?locale=en[/url]

[I]The subject of this thesis is the study of the idiom of Vlach (Karagouniki) language group of Acarnania. Its purpose is the cross-sectional study of the important elements of the Vlach idiom (phonetics-phonology, morphology, syntax, etc.). Additionally, its aim is to record and annotate the vocabulary of this idiom especially in areas where it is of particular interest, namely in the field of onomasiology (anthroponymy and toponymy). The work is based primarily on primary (on the spot) research but also secondary research (reviews) is employed.[/I]

Carlin 02-20-2017 04:47 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;166302]How much is the proportion of modern Greek population of Wallachian origin?[/QUOTE]

At least 30%.

Carlin 02-20-2017 04:58 PM

1) [B]Anonymi Descriptio Europae orientalis[/B]. Imperium Constantinopolitanum, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Ungaria, Polonia, Bohemia. Anno MCCCVIII exarata. Cracoviae, 1916: As per the anonymous traveler of Eastern Europe [B]from the XIV century[/B], it is stated that Vlachs (whom the author calls "Blasi"), are a [B]numerous people living [U]between Macedonia, Achaia and Salonika[/U][/B].

2) [B]Johann Thunmann[/B], Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, [B]1774[/B]: The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of Thessaly and Macedonia combined.

3) Inhabitants of Greece through the eyes of various foreign visitors and travelers. Various regions/areas:

"The once glorious Athens is so desolate that it seems incredible that it was once glorious. I, for one, did not see anywhere a more terrible place. Wilderness, swamps...." »DAramon, French ambassador.

"The population of Samos is Turkish." Ruy Gonzales de Clavijo, envoy of the king of Castile, Henry III, the court of Tamerlane.

"Eleusis is now a poor village with 1,200 inhabitants, mostly Albanians." - John Fulleylove MClymont JA, 1902.

[B]"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks." » (The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, [U]1686[/U]).[/B]

"Kos is inhabited by Turks." (Pierre Belon, a French physician and botanist, 1546.)

"Mykonos.. It was almost uninhabited." Thevenot (1655).

Amphipolis 02-20-2017 05:20 PM

For Akarnania you'll have to look at the map of page 12. There are different colors depending on the era of arrival. For some towns and villages there are exact dates on the map.

For details you'll have to find his articles. His books are attractive and awarded but as far as I can see this guy (Koukoudis) as a scientist is so-so.

By the way, are you writing a PhD on Vlachs?


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