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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

osiris 09-09-2008 10:44 PM

all the phil hellenic historians talk the same way, while realising the non greek origins of most greeks, they then claim but they have a right to be greek, and do you know why they all make this seemingly illogical claim. its because they need to justify their own pro hellenic notions, they want a greece to exist because its psychologically important for western historians and politicians to have a modern nation representing the glory of hellas.
a racist europe needs a pure greek nation to represnt the pure ancient greeks who apparently discovered everything and created everything form scratch, a preposterous and ahistorical view of ancient history.

Pelister 09-09-2008 11:40 PM

[QUOTE=osiris;1587]all the phil hellenic historians talk the same way, while realising the non greek origins of most greeks, they then claim but they have a right to be greek, and do you know why they all make this seemingly illogical claim. its because they need to justify their own pro hellenic notions, they want a greece to exist because its psychologically important for western historians and politicians to have a modern nation representing the glory of hellas.
[B]a racist europe [/B]needs a pure greek nation to represnt the pure ancient greeks who apparently discovered everything and created everything form scratch, a preposterous and ahistorical view of ancient history.[/QUOTE]

The E.U worships Greece, and Greece will always be the darling of the West.

Many members of the E.U very likely pity the modern Greeks, and their nationalism, or politely humor them. I don't for a second believe that the people in the E.U genuinely believe all the garbage come out of modern Greece.

Greece is turning out to be the brat, in all of this; and I think the E.U feels responsible for this child.

Giorikas 09-10-2008 01:02 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1552]Giorikas, you have used the example of both parents being Greek and the child being Macedonian at least a couple of times. A skeptical part of me feels that you are playing a little game with this. But I will leave that for now. If my parents were self-identifying as Greeks, I would question it. Like many Grkomani children do, they are perplexed with the idea of not being able to speak Greek and having different cultural customs to that of "mainstream Greeks". In the example you give, perhaps the child is acutely aware of the contradictions that it's parents are forced to live with. Who is more correct in this case?[/QUOTE]

Risto, the fact that I used the example 2 times is not the problem. The fact that that makes you skeptical is the problem. You are the problem, since apparently you have difficulties to accept that these things happen all over the Balkans or outside and are a 'normal phenomenon' and nothing more then that. It doesn't mean that the Greek government made also mistakes handling minorities in general, but many of you seem out of touch with reality thinking that the big bad Greek government is responsible for everything that you don't like to see happening. There are many things changing in Greece.

Apart from that I agree with your description of what happens with 'Grkomani'.

The example is particular case has to do with Greeks, but that can easily be substituted with any kind of nationality and be substituted with any kind of country. These things are found everywhere in the Balkans.

In this particular case, I worked together with the daughter of the Greek-Macedonian lady. The daughter just felt just local. Not Macedonian, not Greek. Spoke neither and was far away from her mother's weird customs and language. She in her turn just intermingled with er mainstream society and had her father's name on top of that.

The mother who came from Macedonia, married locally and spoke Macedonian (no Greek) and did not identify with anything else. Daughter told me she hates Greeks as I mentioned.
I can only speculate from here on, but I am not sure that she chose to identify with Macedonians instead of Greeks because of free choice, or by external pressure, but it happens all the time that children just don't want to be different then their environment is. She made her choice so it seems.

To answer your question: Correct is that she does what she feels comfortable with. I find it a shame that anybody should forget where they are from and what they are, but this is what she became and this is apparently what makes her feel better. Who are we to tell others what they should do and how they should feel?

Giorikas

Вардарец 09-10-2008 01:21 AM

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="7"][QUOTE=Giorikas;1608]Who are we to tell others what they should do and how they should feel?

Giorikas[/QUOTE][/SIZE][/FONT]

I quoted you. Now tell your quote to your government, and wait for an answer :)

Risto the Great 09-10-2008 01:28 AM

[QUOTE]Risto, the fact that I used the example 2 times is not the problem. The fact that that makes you skeptical is the problem. You are the problem, since apparently you have difficulties to accept that these things happen all over the Balkans or outside and are a 'normal phenomenon' and nothing more then that.[/QUOTE]
Can you highlight similar "happenings" in the Balkans outside of Greece?

Giorikas 09-10-2008 01:59 AM

[QUOTE=Vardarets;1611][FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="7"][/SIZE][/FONT]

I quoted you. Now tell your quote to your government, and wait for an answer :)[/QUOTE]

Well, depite what every else thinks here, Greece doesn't have police department checking on people what they should feel, you overestimate their efficiency a bit :)

Pelister 09-10-2008 02:20 AM

[QUOTE=Giorikas;1616]Well, depite what every else thinks here, Greece doesn't have police department checking on people what they should feel, you overestimate their efficiency a bit :)[/QUOTE]

You write that changing nationalities and identities happens all the time in the balkans. :eek:

Nothing could be further from the truth, unless of course, you come from Modern Greece.

The Serbs were always Serbs, the Macedonians were always Macedonians ...

The Modern Greeks, on the other hand, are very, very mixed ... Turks as Greeks, Albanians as Greeks, Vlachs as Greeks, and now Macedonians as Greeks, as so it goes on ... it follows a pattern of the expansion of Modern Greece into new territories that in modern terms were never Greek.

Giorikas 09-10-2008 02:28 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1612]Can you highlight similar "happenings" in the Balkans outside of Greece?[/QUOTE]

The US melting pot for starters. First generation immigrants speak their native language, later they start developing accents, the next generation speaks the native language even less, and are already about to 'flip' to the otherside, meaning to become mainsteam ' gringo's ' :D (No I don't live in a Spanish speaking country). Why are you asking the obvious?

It's not a question of pressure, many kids just don't want to be different then their friends at school. It's natural.
I have met on Facebook Poker a Greek woman from Turkey. We were chatting in Greek when the other players were strangers. As soon as her Turkish friends joined the pokertable she directly changed to English with me. Apparently she wasn't comfortable with speaking/chatting to me in Greek in front of her friends (and this was a grown up). It doesn't automatically mean that Turkish society/government is imposing these restrictions on her, it was probably her own problem and to blame Turkish society for that is too easy.

As opposite example, I when I was in Turkey for work and stayed over in Istanbul in the weekend, I went to church and saw a loccal Greek lady with her grandchildren and heard her speaking Greek. It made me feel very proud and good that they preserve their heritage.

Myself, when I was young, I didn't like it to speak or to be spoken to in public in anything else then the local language. That changed fortunately but I can understand that logic. I guess most us of can relate to that.

Going back to your problems:

It might be an idea to play another record. I am sure that (especially in the past) being anything else then mainstream Greek would have had it's uncomfortable side to an extent in Greece. I also believe that the Greek government(s) did not handle minorities well (we know that for a fact when it comes to the Turkish/Moslim minorities in the East) but I read a lot of things blown way out of proportion. One keeps repeating the other and the end of the story is that minorities are being nazi-style persecuted and tortured in Greece. Ridiculous.

Giorikas 09-10-2008 03:20 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;1622]You write that changing nationalities and identities happens all the time in the balkans. :eek:

Nothing could be further from the truth, unless of course, you come from Modern Greece.

The Serbs were always Serbs, the Macedonians were always Macedonians ...

The Modern Greeks, on the other hand, are very, very mixed ... Turks as Greeks, Albanians as Greeks, Vlachs as Greeks, and now Macedonians as Greeks, as so it goes on ... it follows a pattern of the expansion of Modern Greece into new territories that in modern terms were never Greek.[/QUOTE]

Ah here we go again. Keep on living in denial thinking that Greeks are a complete mix and you guys are pure, plain and simple Macedonians. I am comfortable enough with what I am and what Greeks are to laugh about that.
I will not not discuss it further with you since that would probably lead to me being banned.
However, I would appreciate it is you could extend the same courtacy to me as I have to you and that is that you accept Greeks as they are and as they want to be referred to. Whatever you believe is your business. Keep your nazi style 'ethnicity by blood' rethorics for yourself and as I said keep on dreaming of your Greek mix theories, nobody else has inter mingled, and [I]especially[/I] not the etnically clean blooded Macedonians who have wonderfully kept their Blut clean from anybody else's and descend directly from the ancient Macedonians. Keep playing that record hombre don't expect me to listen to that crap.

Risto the Great 09-10-2008 04:02 AM

[QUOTE=Giorikas;1624]The US melting pot for starters. First generation immigrants speak their native language, later they start developing accents, the next generation speaks the native language even less, and are already about to 'flip' to the otherside, meaning to become mainsteam ' gringo's ' :D (No I don't live in a Spanish speaking country). Why are you asking the obvious?

It's not a question of pressure, many kids just don't want to be different then their friends at school. It's natural.
I have met on Facebook Poker a Greek woman from Turkey. We were chatting in Greek when the other players were strangers. As soon as her Turkish friends joined the pokertable she directly changed to English with me. Apparently she wasn't comfortable with speaking/chatting to me in Greek in front of her friends (and this was a grown up). It doesn't automatically mean that Turkish society/government is imposing these restrictions on her, it was probably her own problem and to blame Turkish society for that is too easy.

As opposite example, I when I was in Turkey for work and stayed over in Istanbul in the weekend, I went to church and saw a loccal Greek lady with her grandchildren and heard her speaking Greek. It made me feel very proud and good that they preserve their heritage.

Myself, when I was young, I didn't like it to speak or to be spoken to in public in anything else then the local language. That changed fortunately but I can understand that logic. I guess most us of can relate to that.

Going back to your problems:

It might be an idea to play another record. I am sure that (especially in the past) being anything else then mainstream Greek would have had it's uncomfortable side to an extent in Greece. I also believe that the Greek government(s) did not handle minorities well (we know that for a fact when it comes to the Turkish/Moslim minorities in the East) but I read a lot of things blown way out of proportion. One keeps repeating the other and the end of the story is that minorities are being nazi-style persecuted and tortured in Greece. Ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant In the Balkans ... but outside of Greece. Like a kid who calls himself Croatian but has parents who self-identify as Serbians.

You seem distracted, you did not really deal with my issue very well. And then proceeded to tell me about the Turkish/Muslim minorities who had a hard time but not as bad as everyone makes out (Don't you know about the Macedonian persecution as well?). Whilst being completely irrelevant to my line of questioning, it does indicate you really want to say something here and it really does not align itself with the wonderful introduction you made for yourself.

I fear my friend Osiris was right and I was mistakenly sticking up for you. You see, most Greeks who introduce themselves with the loftiest of ideals usually reduce to the lowest denominator of scum over time. I realise they are harsh words, but I would rather someone comes here and is honest. Someone like Fatso comes here and blatantly tells us much to my utter discontent that he disagrees with the ancient Macedonian identity from our perspective. Nevertheless, he is human enough to see that we exist as a modern people and offers support to the much abused Macedonian race. That shows character.

You are here for a Spanish lesson and some other agenda it would appear.

But, I will let you prove that for yourself.

Giorikas 09-10-2008 05:24 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1640]Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant In the Balkans ... but outside of Greece. Like a kid who calls himself Croatian but has parents who self-identify as Serbians.

You seem distracted, you did not really deal with my issue very well. And then proceeded to tell me about the Turkish/Muslim minorities who had a hard time but not as bad as everyone makes out (Don't you know about the Macedonian persecution as well?). Whilst being completely irrelevant to my line of questioning, it does indicate you really want to say something here and it really does not align itself with the wonderful introduction you made for yourself.

I fear my friend Osiris was right and I was mistakenly sticking up for you. You see, most Greeks who introduce themselves with the loftiest of ideals usually reduce to the lowest denominator of scum over time. I realise they are harsh words, but I would rather someone comes here and is honest. Someone like Fatso comes here and blatantly tells us much to my utter discontent that he disagrees with the ancient Macedonian identity from our perspective. Nevertheless, he is human enough to see that we exist as a modern people and offers support to the much abused Macedonian race. That shows character.

You are here for a Spanish lesson and some other agenda it would appear.

But, I will let you prove that for yourself.[/QUOTE]

Well Risto, you seem to be much respected here but please don't lecture me with this 'distracted' stuff. I misread your question. Big deal. I gave you one example outside of Greece or Macedonia with this ex colleage. I gave you a few examples in Turkey. Others mention these Grkoman, Serboman, Bulgaroman theories (I hate these expressions as if these people are considered like some sort of halfbreed traiters) saying more or less the same thing. I added an example of the US and you want yet another.
I believe you are trying to make a point here, so say what's on your mind. My statements are not controversial or very much disputed. We can see it all around us regardless of nationality and regardless where those persons live.

Please be a bit more selective in your lectures as I have seen already a fair bit of unrelated (to the topics) nazi crap here from others with no relation to the original subjects whatsoever. I guess that this must be the 'Macedonians will always get he benefit of the doubt' - part of the Risto show you were talking about.
Rest assured that this respect you get from others presumably based upon hanging out for centuries behind your PC serving the cause does not mean you will get mine automatically. My anarchistic side always has a problem with self proclaimed experts acting like prosecutor, judge and jury such as yourself.
What I wrote hardly disqualifies my point and by the way I don't know any Serbians or Croatians. Wouldn't have a problem telling you that straight away too. It is clear that there are many Balkan examples.

Take Tito who was mixed Craotian Slovenian but preferred to be Yugoslavian instead. Take Bregovic who is Serbian Croatian from Sarajevo considering himself to be Yugoslavian. Take Ataturk who must surely 'by blood' have a fair bit of Slavic blood in him the way he looks but he or his forefathers chose to be Turkish.

Anyway, you were indeed not attacking me nor impolite and you welcomed me. I had no problem with that or with you. Fair enough, but that's not really the same as sticking up for me is it? Could it be that you've been too long hanging around these sites? Your reactions are really a bit over the top.

Make no mistake, I am all for a dialogue and have never said differently. Dialogue means 2 opinions in stead of having a monologue with everybody repeating the same over and over again (for years) reposting documents that have long been discussed before. I thought that that was clear and that regardless of that you still welcomed me.

I have had to follow your rules to be admitted and I did so and that is not something difficult for me.
But make no mistake. I have never compromised on anything I believed in, never said I would or should, and as far as I know it is not a pre-condition to be here. You don't even know where I stand since we hardly started discussing about that.

In fact you will read that in another message where I said that I disagree with the way Greek forums are run, but not necessarily with all they say. That I have never discussed about the probability that you descend from ancient Macedonians doesn't mean I believe in that. You seem really confused Risto. Please tell me where I said any differently.

And before boasting how you managed to lure me into making a confession with your years of experience exposing Grekomani etc, note that I had alread written before that as a whole I disagree with the pure blooded ancient Macedonian theories that most of you seem to adhere to.

Hasta la vista,

How's that for some Spanish hombre?

Risto the Great 09-10-2008 06:59 AM

I offered Fatso as an example of someone with a differing ideology but neverthless a respectable demeanour. I stuck up for you when Osiris made assumptions about you and offered you the benefit of the doubt. But you know what ... you are right, "I see Greek people" ... when they come across extra nice .... like you ... they have even more to hide. But we are here to explore each others perspectives.

You now cite mixed marriages as an example of why people in the Balkans "change" ethnicities. Fine ... irrelevant ... but fine. Keep going, you are fun.

El Bre 09-10-2008 08:07 AM

[QUOTE]Make no mistake, I am all for a dialogue[/QUOTE]

Is this dialogue gonna start anytime soon, or can I go and get some popcorn?

Delodephius 09-10-2008 08:33 AM

U u... get one for me too. And don't forget the butter.

Giorikas 09-10-2008 10:15 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1679]I offered Fatso as an example of someone with a differing ideology but neverthless a respectable demeanour. I stuck up for you when Osiris made assumptions about you and offered you the benefit of the doubt. But you know what ... you are right, "I see Greek people" ... when they come across extra nice .... like you ... they have even more to hide. But we are here to explore each others perspectives.

You now cite mixed marriages as an example of why people in the Balkans "change" ethnicities. Fine ... irrelevant ... but fine. Keep going, you are fun.[/QUOTE]

Risto, are you pulling my leg here? I read nothing else then stories about Grekomani, Bulgaromani, Serbomani. Now these are examples that you keep talking about. Point taken, mixed marriages should not be considered valid examples but still...
There are Bulgarians of Greek origin that got stuck on the other side of the border when they were drawn, there are Bulgarian that were stuck on the Greek side and so on.
Some will have kept their identity, some not. The ones that lost their identity either didn't care, or were more comfortable going into the into the big melting pot, others felt unwelcome and kept a low profile to eventually mingle in. This is something we see all over the place, in the Balkans, or outside the Balkans. Do you dispute it?

Moving on: So tell me oh Great Risto, see-er of Greeks. What is it what I have to hide ? I maintain what I said about having this place moderated and I honestly believe what I said. Being nice or not and believing what I believe are not related. I am sure that by default you will find me nicer if I buy the gospel you are spreading.

Let's face it, it's not like I have an agenda blowing up a website with years of experience converting the ignorant neutral reader into supporters for your cause. In fact has there been any registered conversion of a neutral reader for your cause, somebody not from the Balkans? Never mind though, we can forget about my suggestion. (it was merely that, a suggestion)

So tell me what my agenda is, keepin in mind that I had already expressed before you 'saw' me that I don't buy the story that you are the only unmixed people of the Balkans going straight back to the classical Macedonians. Is that so bad anyway, that I don't buy it? Anyway, I am not a disciple to the gospel and I have read many different stories by Macedonian on that subject, all with different explanations of what Macedonians are and where they came from. That doesn't help.
There seems to be more consensus from Macedonian side on Grekomani, Bulgaromani, Srbomani, the origins of Greeks, the origins of Bulgarians :D

Delodephius 09-10-2008 11:46 AM

Another advise if you will: never write long posts. Up to ten lines. Write them if you REALLY have to, but so far I have not seen the need to.

Giorikas 09-10-2008 02:04 PM

[QUOTE=Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas;1705]Another advise if you will: never write long posts. Up to ten lines. Write them if you REALLY have to, but so far I have not seen the need to.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, these oneliners seem to work really well here. Thanks

Delodephius 09-10-2008 02:25 PM

Long posts show insecurity and hiding behind words.

El Bre 09-10-2008 02:40 PM

[QUOTE]So tell me what my agenda is, keepin in mind that I had already expressed before you 'saw' me that [I][B]I don't buy the story that you are the only unmixed people of the Balkans going straight back to the classical Macedonians[/B][/I].[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=86[/url]

Risto the Great 09-10-2008 06:02 PM

[QUOTE=Giorikas;1695]Risto, are you pulling my leg here? I read nothing else then stories about Grekomani, Bulgaromani, Serbomani. Now these are examples that you keep talking about. Point taken, mixed marriages should not be considered valid examples but still...
There are Bulgarians of Greek origin that got stuck on the other side of the border when they were drawn, there are Bulgarian that were stuck on the Greek side and so on.
Some will have kept their identity, some not. The ones that lost their identity either didn't care, or were more comfortable going into the into the big melting pot, others felt unwelcome and kept a low profile to eventually mingle in. This is something we see all over the place, in the Balkans, or outside the Balkans. Do you dispute it?

Moving on: So tell me oh Great Risto, see-er of Greeks. What is it what I have to hide ? I maintain what I said about having this place moderated and I honestly believe what I said. Being nice or not and believing what I believe are not related. I am sure that by default you will find me nicer if I buy the gospel you are spreading.
[/QUOTE]
I see you still referred to Greeks and some other ethnicity near borders.
I asked about other examples in the Balkans EXCLUDING Greeks.
You have failed to cite one example other than mixed marriages which you now agree was a silly idea.

So, perhaps it is a problem with Greeks exclusively in the Balkans. I think my point is now very clear. The rest is fluff.

I have stated the term Grkoman once (oops twice now) on this forum. I have said Greek many more times. Why on earth do you enjoy the idea of painting us a bad Macedonians who disrespect the Greeks? That is the picture you seek to weave out with your many sentences. Macedonians have a very little request from Greeks, they be acknowledged for their Macedonian identity. Is that too hard for a reasonable person like you?

Giorikas 09-10-2008 11:51 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1763]I see you still referred to Greeks and some other ethnicity near borders.
I asked about other examples in the Balkans EXCLUDING Greeks.
You have failed to cite one example other than mixed marriages which you now agree was a silly idea.

So, perhaps it is a problem with Greeks exclusively in the Balkans. I think my point is now very clear. The rest is fluff.

I have stated the term Grkoman once (oops twice now) on this forum. I have said Greek many more times. Why on earth do you enjoy the idea of painting us a bad Macedonians who disrespect the Greeks? That is the picture you seek to weave out with your many sentences. Macedonians have a very little request from Greeks, they be acknowledged for their Macedonian identity. Is that too hard for a reasonable person like you?[/QUOTE]

Risto, I repeat, are you pulling my leg? This is not about Greeks and I am sorry that I confused you. You claim kinsmen all around your borders in fantastic guesstimated numbers too I might add.
I thought you understood that my examples are interchangeable with most Balkan peoples. Put Greeks aside. Do you deny it? Why do you focus on details and do you overlook the big picture?

I acknowledge making many sentences and have already been advised by my much appreciated tutor that it doesn't read well, but thanks for pointing that out to me. I wonder if you would ever tell a Macedonian member that though, but never mind. I am not a native English speaker as yourself so I sometimes need more words to make my point. Also I find short messages with one liners intended to be humorous not to add very much.

Risto the Great 09-11-2008 12:03 AM

[QUOTE]I thought you understood that my examples are interchangeable with most Balkan peoples. Put Greeks aside. Do you deny it? Why do you focus on details and do you overlook the big picture?[/QUOTE]
I asked you to give me examples of this behaviour using any country other than Greece (but still in the Balkans). And you still can't. Even though you suggest it happens all the time. I disagree on this point and you still go on about how normal it is.

I like your sentences. Carry on.

Giorikas 09-11-2008 01:18 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1796]I asked you to give me examples of this behaviour using any country other than Greece (but still in the Balkans). And you still can't. Even though you suggest it happens all the time. I disagree on this point and you still go on about how normal it is.

I like your sentences. Carry on.[/QUOTE]

Risto, you are missing the point by far. I was not talking about countries but about the behavior of minorities. Read back and it will become more clear. I am not accusing Macedonia of turning these people (Greeks in this example I gave) into Macedonians. I just don't know what happened but I don't think she mingled necessarily because of external pressure.
Examples are ample. You have Sudeten Germans that sided with Germans in WW II and then miraculously blended after being part of the Warshaw pact. The reason is obvious, last thing you'd want to be seen as was as Sudeten German. Everyone who decides to give up has it's own reasons and I think in most cases it is not a decision but a gradual process.
There are Jewish who blended all over the Balkans. Some didn't and others went abroad to Israel or the US.
I heard examples when I met an Israeli whose parents escaped Bulgaria in WW II, went to Israel, but other family members stayed losing eventually their Jewish identity. Bit further away (Kiev), you have Vladimir Horowitz marrying the daughter of Toscanini and ended up giving the religious identity.
I believe there are politicians in your country saying the exact opposite. That they were not going to continue denying their heritage after all these years. They seem to have refound their Bulgarian heritage. I have met a Turkish guy (in Moscow) who told me that he was adopted by a Turkish family when he got separated in the 1974 war as a baby. He always wanted to go through life as a Turkish even after his parents told him the story. I can understand that. (even if he wouldn't be pressured by his environment in Ankara)
Being a minority is lonely business sometimes. He even joined and eventually left the Turkish army. This guy eventually refound his Greek (Cypriot) identity without actually knowing his real Greek name he would have had. I can respect that regardless of the example or nationality.
Yugoslavia is a bad example since there the tendancy was NOT to highlight your identity but to become Yugoslavian, the rest was less relevant. The ex-Yugoslavians always pointed out that on personal level tghere were never any problems and even now many Croats have good contacts with Serbians and vica versa (on personal level) Nowadays, the borders are pretty much drawn along ethnic lines, but without being able to give you an example, I am pretty sure that there are still Serbians living in the Krajina scared shitless after the largest etchnic cleansing in the modern Balkan wars (the expulsion of Serbs) who will pass as Croatians.

Satisfied? Can you please tell me what the relevance was of all that? It is obvious that these things happen for all different reasons. By external pressure, or voluntarily. It happens in all countries in the Balkans, and outside the Balkans.

Waiting for your one-liner oh Great Risto, where you will isolate one example that you don't agree with or will disqualify, thus missing utterly the point.
Can you tell me why you disagree with me. Thanks for clarifying that. Also, I asked you what my hidden agenda was. You must have overlooked that one. Please clarify also.

Apologies for the long reply.

Risto the Great 09-11-2008 01:45 AM

My point to this painful exercise G is that only in Greece is this kind of metamorphosis imposed on its people. Rather than a natural erosion of identity after moving country, we are talking about indigenous people losing their identity. This is prevalent in Greece and at least 10 times faster than any other region on the Balkans.

If you do not think this is significant or interesting, then that is your problem. I think it is significant and wonder why it happens and what conditions do people live in that facilitates such rapid change.

In relation to your agenda well apparently there are very few Macedonians in Greece according to you. A casual reader will say ... yes, Giorikas appears to know what he is talking about ... and you are really just another person who tries to downplay the indigenous populations and their significance in Northern Greece.

You say you do not come from there, yet you comment on this often.

Sv. Nikola 09-11-2008 02:05 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1612]Can you highlight similar "happenings" in the Balkans outside of Greece?[/QUOTE]

But as we are outside Macedonia, it is ease to give suggestion, maybe it is brave to learn new but it is on them to try as they live in balkan nation envelop (surround) in their national borders.

They can eat, live thing and learn what is serve to them fro politics.

There are small group who thing for improvement, economically but let ask all balkan nations would the like to have prefer name as it is here in Australia. This +.:rolleyes:

Maybe we ask where are gone all fact in Greeks history regarding Macedonian population. Yes Srebrenica ethnic killing -Muslims in Bosnia, new writing in Balkans history,aswell for Macedonian from 1903 till 1948. :eek:

Ask them how the are file about whet you have to leave with nothing and build all your live, and takeover for no reason, just because you are different but yours ethnic orientation. :confused:

Giorikas 09-11-2008 02:45 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1817]My point to this painful exercise G is that only in Greece is this kind of metamorphosis imposed on its people. Rather than a natural erosion of identity after moving country, we are talking about indigenous people losing their identity. This is prevalent in Greece and at least 10 times faster than any other region on the Balkans.

If you do not think this is significant or interesting, then that is your problem. I think it is significant and wonder why it happens and what conditions do people live in that facilitates such rapid change.

In relation to your agenda well apparently there are very few Macedonians in Greece according to you. A casual reader will say ... yes, Giorikas appears to know what he is talking about ... and you are really just another person who tries to downplay the indigenous populations and their significance in Northern Greece.

You say you do not come from there, yet you comment on this often.[/QUOTE]

Not as much painful as annoying. I take it that with the '10 times faster remark' you admit that these things happen(ed) outside of Greece in the Balkans. Doesn't hurt to say that I was right Risto and even if I'm right on this one it doesn't mean you are wrong on whatever you believe.

So having established that minorities have have mixed in the Balkans, you claim that Greece is an exception to the rest. By 10 times. ( By the way, I never spoke about indigenous people Risto, nice of you to change that essential part of information, but I'll take the bite for the sake of having something to discuss :D)
Please back that up, since I think that that is difficult for anyone to judge. I do not have a problem with anybody making estimations but for sure you would ask me the same question back. Even you can admit that:D. So interrogating the Risto way:''please provide me credible and objective numbers of this population size of Macedonians then, and now'.
For this part of the exercise it is important to work the figures to a factor of minimum 10. Of course you are comparing with outside of Greece so kindly provide me a couple of countries to compare it with.

You are making assumptions about what my opinion is, what my agenda and my position on number and the existance of Macedonians in Greece. In fact you are turning this whole discussion around and distorting the point I was making. Please don't do that. I can express myself, though I still have a lot to learn from the one-liner messages you make. Damn :D Why don't you ask me what I think about it? So much more easy:D.

Risto the Great 09-11-2008 04:02 AM

Sure, it will happen over many hundreds of years ... even in the Balkans (I am yet to find a good Venetian in Greece or a good Circassian or Armenian in Macedonia). But in Greece, it happened over about 20 years. That is interesting. I just wanted you to give me examples. The Jews in Macedonia still practice their faith without any conversions I am led to believe. The Germans etc ... well, not my concern right now. (But I hope the Lusatian Sorbs retain their identity.)

Naturally I referred to the indigenous people, do you think I am interested in the transformation of the Christians who arrived from Turkey? Not at all.

Now you want me to confirm numbers of indigenous people. I will do that another time. But I simply queried your expertise on the matter based on the fact you said you did not come from there so could not possibly understand the quantum of indigenous people that "transformed" overnight in Northern Greece. You are probably right about me making assumptions, I do that about people.

[QUOTE]In fact you are turning this whole discussion around and distorting the point I was making.
[/QUOTE]
Please remind me about what your point was. I honestly can't remember, my eyes glazed over once I started reading about the Turk who was a Cypriot who became a Russian then mated a donkey and turned to Judaism. Seriously, what was the point you were trying to make.

Giorikas 09-11-2008 04:58 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1836]Sure, it will happen over many hundreds of years ... even in the Balkans (I am yet to find a good Venetian in Greece or a good Circassian or Armenian in Macedonia). But in Greece, it happened over about 20 years. That is interesting. I just wanted you to give me examples. The Jews in Macedonia still practice their faith without any conversions I am led to believe. The Germans etc ... well, not my concern right now. (But I hope the Lusatian Sorbs retain their identity.)

Naturally I referred to the indigenous people, do you think I am interested in the transformation of the Christians who arrived from Turkey? Not at all.

Now you want me to confirm numbers of indigenous people. I will do that another time. But I simply queried your expertise on the matter based on the fact you said you did not come from there so could not possibly understand the quantum of indigenous people that "transformed" overnight in Northern Greece. You are probably right about me making assumptions, I do that about people.

Please remind me about what your point was. I honestly can't remember, my eyes glazed over once I started reading about the Turk who was a Cypriot who became a Russian then mated a donkey and turned to Judaism. Seriously, what was the point you were trying to make.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that Risto:

I was making a general point. You don't waste time and link that to Greece and Macedonians. Fair enough. Couldn't you just make that point from the beginning instead of dismissing each example? With all respect, you react very dodgy and evasive. I am sure you developed this style using oneliners, ansswering question with other questions over the years and serves you well but things can be so much easier if you just get to the point ask me what you want to know.

So you wanted to talk about the indiginous people of Greece (disputed by me) yet you insist on examples outside of Greece in the Balkans and dismiss perfectly good examples. Okaay

So it seems that this discussion is blocked a bit until you substantiate your claims that you seemed very sure of. I will look forward to the information that we need, and please do not change the question I asked you (as you did here): The number of indiginous people is not enough to back up the claim you made. If you want to back it up you need the numbers then (when?), now, the factor has to been seen, and since you are comparing it to other countries, maybe you can mention the countries and the factors etc too. All this from neutral undisputed sources please. Don't dogde this bullet please Risto. I have seen you doing it before when making unsubstantiated claims.

Then: the point..

Please read back my first messages in this thread. My comments were quite harmless and not intended (yet) as an attack on your version of the truth. I would have said so otherwise. I have no problem with that and it's not something that I am uncomfortable with. Heck, the worst thing that can happen is that you convince me of the opposite. That's ok too, I'm open to that.
Anyway, the point, if you do not understand it after reading back, then I will gladly clarify. For now I am trying to minimize the number of lines and not doing a very good job at it too

Your comments on my examples are a bit cheap wouldn't you say? Not even very funny. All the examples I used were genuine and in the end it was you making me come up with examples. You might even find it funny considering your obsession with Greeks but the Cypriot case is not funny. Cheap discussion techniques too, but I am sure all your friends will find it hilarious.

Risto the Great 09-11-2008 05:11 AM

I note you did not spell out what the point was. This thread has 19 pages now and I was merely asking what your initial point was.

And, I know you did it by mistake so will not do anything about it this time, but please do not change any of my text when you quote me. Other people might think I said something different.

Giorikas 09-11-2008 06:41 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;1850]I note you did not spell out what the point was. This thread has 19 pages now and I was merely asking what your initial point was.

And, I know you did it by mistake so will not do anything about it this time, but please do not change any of my text when you quote me. Other people might think I said something different.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, I appreciate that.

The point was: Things are not so black and white, especially not in the Balkans. You are what you identify with. In your case Macedonian. In the case of the ex-colleage's mother: Macedonian. Her blood or ancestry was not, and according to me that is irrelevant. She choses (probably) based upon her background in Macedonia to identify with them. I dismiss the argument 'blood' for describing what you are and this is actually what happens all around the world. Those who do this are practicing nazi theories and that includes most of you here bashing Greeks for having mixed with other peoples over the last 3000 years. I find it ridiculous. No country can claim this in Europe apart fdrom the Islanders maybe being so isolated.
As I asked you before, I would really like to hear serious reactions from all of you what it is that makes you Macedonian. Please do not answer that back with a question, I believe this forum in the short time that it exists has spent more then enough topics on the subject of Greeks.

Soldier of Macedon 09-11-2008 06:47 AM

This particular part of the forum is for Exposing Lies and Propaganda, so don't be suprised in you see quite a few topics about Greeks.

sydney 09-11-2008 06:50 AM

and a greek i know is from kefalonia, he speaks greek, he says "i'm greek", people call him greek. so what's my point? deeper in conversation he'll tell you his ancestors are italian. and even deeper he'll tell you he doesn't really feel that greek, he feels different because the way he was treated inside greece.

so, you're right, things aren't what they seem, or as you say, black and white. but if they were, we would be the white ones (and that's obvious).

and what makes us macedonian? answer: that's all we know ... you should ask my great-great-great-great grandfathers for your answer.

Giorikas 09-11-2008 06:56 AM

[QUOTE=sydney;1869]and a greek i know is from kefalonia, he speaks greek, he says "i'm greek", people call him greek. so what's my point? deeper in conversation he'll tell you his ancestors are italian. and even deeper he'll tell you he doesn't really feel that greek, he feels different because the way he was treated inside greece.

so, you're right, things aren't what they seem, or as you say, black and white. but if they were, we would be the white ones (and that's obvious).

and what makes us macedonian? answer: that's all we know ... you should ask my great-great-great-great grandfathers for your answer.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, so that makes the Grekoman who speaks only Greek and knows no better then he is also per definition Greek. That is his reference, and myself I would not find that incorrect. Like your reference is that you are Macedonian.

sydney 09-11-2008 06:58 AM

spot on. i only pity the grkomani, i do not seek to claim them, they are greek in the modern sense of the word.

Giorikas 09-11-2008 08:17 AM

[QUOTE=sydney;1875]spot on. i only pity the grkomani, i do not seek to claim them, they are greek in the modern sense of the word.[/QUOTE]

We made progress today my friend :)

El Bre 09-11-2008 09:44 AM

[QUOTE=Giorikas;1873]Thanks, so that makes the Grekoman who speaks only Greek and knows no better then he is also per definition Greek. That is his reference, and myself I would not find that incorrect. Like your reference is that you are Macedonian.[/QUOTE]

It all depends on your definition of a Gerkoman. I don't know who it is you are referencing, but the Gerkomani I know were neighbours and at times even relatives. Their metamorphisis was witnessed first hand and they definately didn't speak only Greek.

Risto the Great 09-14-2008 06:43 AM

[QUOTE=sydney;1875]spot on. i only pity the grkomani, i do not seek to claim them, they are greek in the modern sense of the word.[/QUOTE]
They live there ... in a country that does not let them be anything else.
How long will you maintain the rage?
I know one Macedonian who can barely live in that country. He is virtually the equivalent of the Muslims wearing hijabs and completely unable to speak English in Australia. Very much marginalised and a social outcast after the 80 year strategy in Northern Greece. He is what we Macedonians respect and admire. He is 50 years old and unmarried due to his no-compromise brand of being Macedonian in a country that remains backwards in human rights.

Is this what we want for our Macedonian brothers & sisters in Greece?

We want them to rise up for their human rights. We are talking about people oppressed for 600 years. They are so whipped they even believe the new brand of Greekness is a superior culture. How utterly pathetic. Is this rational thought? Clearly not, but we are talking about Greece!

Yet these people hate mixed marriages in Greece. They are still annoyed at the preferential treatment of the transplanted Christians from Turkey and make fun of the Macedonians who pretend to not remember how their ancestors were not the ideal Greeks they have become now.

I do not call these people Grkomani. They are modern Greeks in an ethnically diverse environment that denies diverse ethnicities. But modern Greeks like the Macedonians of Greece used to be very different people 50 years ago. Many like me are testament to that.

toothpaste 09-14-2008 08:37 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;2170]They live there ... in a country that does not let them be anything else.
How long will you maintain the rage?
I know one Macedonian who can barely live in that country. He is virtually the equivalent of the Muslims wearing hijabs and completely unable to speak English in Australia. Very much marginalised and a social outcast after the 80 year strategy in Northern Greece. He is what we Macedonians respect and admire. He is 50 years old and unmarried due to his no-compromise brand of being Macedonian in a country that remains backwards in human rights.

Is this what we want for our Macedonian brothers & sisters in Greece?

We want them to rise up for their human rights. We are talking about people oppressed for 600 years. They are so whipped they even believe the new brand of Greekness is a superior culture. How utterly pathetic. Is this rational thought? Clearly not, but we are talking about Greece!

Yet these people hate mixed marriages in Greece. They are still annoyed at the preferential treatment of the transplanted Christians from Turkey and make fun of the Macedonians who pretend to not remember how their ancestors were not the ideal Greeks they have become now.

I do not call these people Grkomani. They are modern Greeks in an ethnically diverse environment that denies diverse ethnicities. But modern Greeks like the Macedonians of Greece used to be very different people 50 years ago. Many like me are testament to that.[/QUOTE]

Most of the people you call Grecomans ,have lost grandfathers who fought and were killed for the Greek cause against the Bulgarians.

They were the most enthusiastic makedonomachi.I guess they ll turn in their graves ..if their grandchildren (who have Greek as mother language) refuse they are Greek.

El Bre 09-14-2008 12:02 PM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;2174]Most of the people you call Grecomans ,have lost grandfathers who fought and were killed for the Greek cause against the Bulgarians.

They were the most enthusiastic makedonomachi.I guess they ll turn in their graves ..if their grandchildren (who have Greek as mother language) refuse they are Greek.[/QUOTE]

Oh how romantic. Go stick your face back into a book and leave the history to those who acutally lived it.

People ratting out their friends and neighbours being turned into a noble endeavour. Now I've heard it all.

toothpaste 09-14-2008 02:44 PM

[QUOTE=El Bre;2182]1.Oh how romantic. Go stick your face back into a book and leave the history to those who acutally lived it.

2.People ratting out their friends and neighbours being turned into a noble endeavour. Now I've heard it all.[/QUOTE]


1.You re too dazed of your nationalism ,so u see everything blurred.There was a nasty war these times..and victims suffered both sides.
If you believe your ancestors were pure as white pigeons..go on ,but you ll sound somehow between romantic and silly.

As for "those actually lived history" ,my great grandfather was assassinated by locals of the Exarchy (my grandfather called them "Bulgarians") in the beginning of the 20th cent.
My family also suffered during the occupation of Eastern Macedonia by the Bulgarians in WWI (1916) and WWII (1943)...counting 2 more victims.

You know...there are not any pure and innocent nations.

2.Some of these people you re talking about(slavophone Greeks or Grecomans or whatever) ,were tortured and preferred to die instead of denying what they wanted to self-determinate themselves-Greeks.

Does the right of [B]self-determination[/B] exist only for you ?


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