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-   Exposing Lies and Propaganda (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 01:13 AM

[QUOTE=fatso;591]Greece's tactics in friendly assimilation have been one Turkey is following. Greeks from the south get drafted and do their service on the islands or up north. Greek's or Mak's from the north do their service in the south.

The use of Golden Dawn and other anarchy or neo nazi groups are protected by the government. American reporters exposed a link between November 17th and the PASOK party a few years before the Olympics.

Greece is a new Democratic country with an uncut Ambilicol cord from previous Balkan regimes.[/QUOTE]

The Greek army has changed considerably. Greek mommies who protest that their siblings are being harassed by the Greek army have imposed the exact opposite of what you suggest. The Greek army is trying to send the soldiers as close as possible to their homes (which is usually impossible since half the army is in the borders with Turkey and another 1/4 in the northern frontiers)

The link between ultra-right wing organizations and the Greek police has some basis, but it is more likely the result of the close relationship that they used to have during the junta and other black moments in Greek history, and it is only between certain die-hard members of the Greek police rather than the entire police force.

The link between PASOK and 17N is an outright slander. In effect, a PASOK government under Chrysochoidis as minister of interior captured the 17N (albeit more because of its' own mistakes, but also as a result of intensive surveillance)

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 01:15 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;559]It's stupid for anyone to claim ethnic purity in the Balcans..
that goes for both Greeks and Macedonians.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
More stupid is to claim pure Greekness and (as a consequence) claim to be Macedonian. :confused:

Areianos 09-06-2008 01:22 AM

Well we modern Greeks did not write history and Peloponesos was populated mainly by Dorians that migrated from Macedonia to Peloponesos. They were Greek speakers and founders of Linear B.

Besides when the royal houses were waging war amongst each other in southern Greece, Macedonian royalty invited the war refugees from Corinth, Argolis & Sparta to settle in Macedonia as it had vast land (according to Thucydides).

Perhaps it was these war refugees from Corinth, Argolis and Sparta that sent Macedonia to the stratosphere under the reign of Philip.

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 01:26 AM

Sorry, I wasn't there 2000 years ago.
I hear there was less arsenic in the water back then though.

Can I help you with something?

Areianos 09-06-2008 01:34 AM

We are all in this together are we not?

Who knows Risto, you may in fact be a part of us.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 01:36 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;724]Well we modern Greeks did not write history and Peloponesos was populated mainly by Dorians that migrated from Macedonia to Peloponesos. They were Greek speakers and founders of Linear B.

Besides when the royal houses were waging war amongst each other in southern Greece, Macedonian royalty invited the war refugees from Corinth, Argolis & Sparta to settle in Macedonia as it had vast land (according to Thucydides).

Perhaps it was these war refugees from Corinth, Argolis and Sparta that sent Macedonia to the stratosphere under the reign of Philip.[/QUOTE]

Sir havent you missed out on a millenia or two now, what happened in between....

Daskalot 09-06-2008 01:38 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;744]We are all in this together are we not?

Who knows Risto, you may in fact be a part of us.[/QUOTE]

part of us??? It is more likely that you are a part of the Slavic world....

Areianos 09-06-2008 01:40 AM

Yes we had Roman refugees when the Roman capitals changed, then we had the germanic Goths, then we had the Bulgars, then we had the Slavs, we had settlers from the Vangarian Guard, we had settlers from Spanish Aargon knights, we had settlers from French knights, we had Venetian & Genoan traders settle there and then Turks and lastly Spanish jews.

...and we are stil here.

Areianos 09-06-2008 01:42 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;751]part of us??? It is more likely that you are a part of the Slavic world....[/QUOTE]

No disputing that at all but we are talking about perhaps 7% according to genetic studies. The same would be true on your side as well.

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 01:43 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;744]We are all in this together are we not?

Who knows Risto, you may in fact be a part of us.[/QUOTE]
Actually you are 100% correct.
I am the Macedonian part that evolved from the pool of Hellenes.
I suspect you are the Greek part.

Areianos 09-06-2008 01:45 AM

I am Macedonian..just like an Athenian from Athens.

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 01:53 AM

Oh, OK a geographic Macedonian.
No worries.

I am a real one. I am from Australia.

Areianos 09-06-2008 01:55 AM

Geographic, if you like no problem - culturally & linguistically MAKEDONAS.

Heritage - MACEDONIAN.

Ethnicity - GREEK

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 01:56 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;773]Oh, OK a geographic Macedonian.
No worries.

I am a real one. I am from Australia.[/QUOTE]

Argh, those Geographic Macedonians! Who were they?

[url]http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Macedonian_Matters#Can_Macedonia_turn_itself_into_a_separate_ethnographical_and_political_unit.3F_Has_it_already_done_so.3F_Is_it_doing_so_now.3F[/url]

Also from Maedonika wordpress (for those who don't like wikipedia or wikisource)

[url]http://makedonika.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/krste-misirkov-on-macedonian-matters-can-macedonia-turn-itself-into-a-separate-ethnographical-and-political-unit-1903/[/url]

"...These various names did not properly catch on, and gradually they began to give way until finally they were replaced by the natural description [COLOR="Red"]Slav" with a "Macedonian" reflection from the geographical area in which they were distributed[/COLOR]. The people who spoke these dialects had once been called "Slavs" and later either "Serbs" or "Bulgarians" until the rivalry between these two names made them both alien to the Macedonian Slavs, who started calling themselves after the old geographical name of their country. The name Macedonian [COLOR="red"]was first used by the Macedonian Slavs as a geographical term to indicate their origin[/COLOR]...."

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:03 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;777]Geographic, if you like no problem - culturally & linguistically MAKEDONAS.

Heritage - MACEDONIAN.

Ethnicity - GREEK[/QUOTE]

Interesting, how does your language differ from lets say Greeks from Thessaly?

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:06 AM

[QUOTE=Petros Houhoulis;779]Argh, those Geographic Macedonians! Who were they?

[url]http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Macedonian_Matters#Can_Macedonia_turn_itself_into_a_separate_ethnographical_and_political_unit.3F_Has_it_already_done_so.3F_Is_it_doing_so_now.3F[/url]

"...These various names did not properly catch on, and gradually they began to give way until finally they were replaced by the natural description [COLOR="Red"]Slav" with a "Macedonian" reflection from the geographical area in which they were distributed[/COLOR]. The people who spoke these dialects had once been called "Slavs" and later either "Serbs" or "Bulgarians" until the rivalry between these two names made them both alien to the Macedonian Slavs, who started calling themselves after the old geographical name of their country. The name Macedonian [COLOR="red"]was first used by the Macedonian Slavs as a geographical term to indicate their origin[/COLOR]...."[/QUOTE]

Petros, we cannnot usurp the Slav label for ourselves, the rest of the Slav world would mind, what are they then if we are the Slavs by ethnicity......

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:08 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;786]Petros, we cannnot usurp the Slav label for ourselves, the rest of the Slav world would mind, what are they then if we are the Slavs by ethnicity......[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is why Misirkov used Slav Macedonians, not just Slavs, and then he shortened that to Macedonians.

The Greek ethnographic maps of that time also refer to Slav Macedonians.

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 02:08 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;777]Geographic, if you like no problem - culturally & linguistically MAKEDONAS.

Heritage - MACEDONIAN.

Ethnicity - GREEK[/QUOTE]
Hey, maybe we are onto something.
For me, [B]my heritage AND ethnicity is MACEDONIAN.[/B]
Well done, you have shed some new light.
Now your Greek friends will kill you.
Clearly we disagree about your heritage. What makes you feel you have a Macedonian heritage?

Please define how long MAKEDONAS has been around for. I know I know, you will say 4000 years or something. But we all know that is rubbish. And that the Makedonas dialect of Greek is th purest form of Greek ... you know, learning a new language from a book is always helpful.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:10 AM

[QUOTE=Petros Houhoulis;789]Yes, that is why Misirkov used Slav Macedonians, not just Slavs, and then he shortened that to Macedonians.

The Greek ethnographic maps of that time also refer to Slav Macedonians.[/QUOTE]

Because that was what we were then and what we are today, Macedonians.

toothpaste 09-06-2008 02:11 AM

What about Greeks of Macedonia prior to 1912 ?
Did they come from Mars?

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 02:12 AM

Petros.
I really think English is not your native language is it?
You don't really seem to understand "nuance" .
I will try to work with you. But this is a little painful mate.

The geographic Macedonians you raised referring to Misirkov is another issue altogether. He said we Macedonians were a group of people with identifiable ethnic character who identified with the geographic region of Macedonia (where we came from). This became the national/ethnic descriptor. What is so hard?

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 02:13 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;792]What about Greeks of Macedonia prior to 1912 ?
Did they come from Mars?[/QUOTE]
Which ones?

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:14 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;785]Interesting, how does your language differ from lets say Greeks from Thessaly?[/QUOTE]

Άι βε; εiσαι σάψαλης; δεν ξέρεις πως πλαλούν τ'άλογα στον κάμπο;

(Darnakika dialect from my native region. The above sentence is not intelligible to any person who has not learned some basic terminology from our villages).

toothpaste 09-06-2008 02:14 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;793]

The geographic Macedonians you raised referring to Misirkov is another issue altogether. He said we Macedonians were a group of people with identifiable ethnic character who identified with the [B]geographic[/B] region of Macedonia (where we came from). This [SIZE="4"]became[/SIZE] the [B]national/ethnic[/B] descriptor. What is so hard?[/QUOTE]

When did this become ?
I guess he didnt think 1000 BC...

toothpaste 09-06-2008 02:16 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;794]Which ones?[/QUOTE]

My great grandpas from Emathia and Chalkidiki for ex.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:18 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;800]My great grandpas from Emathia and Chalkidiki for ex.[/QUOTE]

I sense that we have one that soon will claim purity......

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:19 AM

Well Risto, it's great to know we share the same heritage, I think it is great.

What do you think of Alexandros spreading Greek culture to the known world?

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:21 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;792]What about Greeks of Macedonia prior to 1912 ?
Did they come from Mars?[/QUOTE]

No, but there numbers was very small, you have also to be aware that many peoples adopted the Greek label when they moved upwards in the social network in the Ottoman empire, thus they were not Greek in the way you seem to mean it today.

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:21 AM

Considering we share the same heritage I am sure you go warm and fuzzu inside when you read this Homeric Hymn. Obviously Ares was reverred to the Northern Greeks as he was in SParta and Thessaly so i am sure you will feel some fuzziness inside.

(ll. 1-17) Ares, exceeding in strength, chariot-rider, golden- helmed, doughty in heart, shield-bearer, Saviour of cities, harnessed in bronze, strong of arm, unwearying, mighty with the spear, O defence of Olympus, father of warlike Victory, ally of Themis, stern governor of the rebellious, leader of righteous men, sceptred King of manliness, who whirl your fiery sphere among the planets in their sevenfold courses through the aether wherein your blazing steeds ever bear you above the third firmament of heaven; hear me, helper of men, giver of dauntless youth! Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life, and strength of war, that I may be able to drive away bitter cowardice from my head and crush down the deceitful impulses of my soul. Restrain also the keen fury of my heart which provokes me to tread the ways of blood-curdling strife. Rather, O blessed one, give you me boldness to abide within the harmless laws of peace, avoiding strife and hatred and the violent fiends of death.

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:22 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;793]Petros.
I really think English is not your native language is it?
You don't really seem to understand "nuance" .
I will try to work with you. But this is a little painful mate.

The geographic Macedonians you raised referring to Misirkov is another issue altogether. He said we Macedonians were a group of people with identifiable ethnic character who identified with the geographic region of Macedonia (where we came from). This became the national/ethnic descriptor. What is so hard?[/QUOTE]

So, why did you use the names "Slavs", "Bulgarians", "Serbs" e.t.c. until the last half of the 19th century? Maybe because the name "Macedonia" was unknown to you until then?

Why did you call your original language "old church Slavonic" instead of "Old church Macedonian"?

What does Misirkov mean when he says the following:

[url]http://makedonika.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/krste-misirkov-on-macedonian-matters-can-macedonia-turn-itself-into-a-separate-ethnographical-and-political-unit-1903/[/url]

[url]http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Macedonian_Matters#Can_Macedonia_turn_itself_into_a_separate_ethnographical_and_political_unit.3F_Has_it_already_done_so.3F_Is_it_doing_so_now.3F[/url]

"Certain historians and philologists claim that from the very time when the South Slavs first came to the Balkans differences existed among them, i.e. they were two separate peoples: the Slavs (Bulgarians and Slovenes) and the Serbo-Croats. This is the opinion of Kopitar, Miklosic and Safarik. Other historians, and particularly linguists, claim that all the South Slavs when they came to the Balkan Peninsula spoke different dialects (speech-forms) of a single language and that they were known by a common name: Slavs. The Serbo-Croats were also known as Slavs; the names Serb and Croat originated from the smaller South Slav groups and were tribal names which became national names only when the people who shared these names, i.e. the Serbs and the Croats, began to form larger states. All the Slavs who were subjects of the state of Serbia called themselves Serbs instead of Slavs, and all those who were subjects of the state of Croatia called themselves Croats. This is the opinion of Prof. Jagic and of many of his students. He regards the present South Slav languages not as three units strictly separated from one another but as a stream of individual speech-forms all running into one another, and forming, as it were, links in a chain."

How do you interpret it?

From what I see, you were Slavs who arrived in Macedonia, and used the name Macedonian Slav because that name was already there. There is no doubt that you didn't discover the name Macedonia on your own.

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:22 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;806]No, but there numbers was very small, you have also to be aware that many peoples adopted the Greek label when they moved upwards in the social network in the Ottoman empire, thus they were not Greek in the way you seem to mean it today.[/QUOTE]

According to whom's source is leading you to believe Greeks in Macedonia were small in number considering only Greeks revolted in Macedonia in the 17th century?

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:23 AM

Greeks in Macedonia before the arrival of refugees was 850,000.

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:24 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;806]No, but there numbers was very small, you have also to be aware that many peoples adopted the Greek label when they moved upwards in the social network in the Ottoman empire, thus they were not Greek in the way you seem to mean it today.[/QUOTE]

Why was their number very small? Who were these Greek people in Macedonia, and what happened to the Macedonians when the Slavs arrived in the Balkans?

Can you answer those questions?

toothpaste 09-06-2008 02:25 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;806]No, but there numbers was very small, you have also to be aware that many peoples adopted the Greek label when they moved upwards in the social network in the Ottoman empire, thus they were not Greek in the way you seem to mean it today.[/QUOTE]

Sources?
Was there a massive "Greek migration" then ?:)

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:27 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;809]According to whom's source is leading you to believe Greeks in Macedonia were small in number considering only Greeks revolted in Macedonia in the 17th century?[/QUOTE]

Now you are being naive, what did the term "Greek" mean in the 17th century?

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:28 AM

It was definitely Ellhnes not Romioi.

This is not my arguement, Greeks were the only ones that revolted in Macedonia in 1821 then again in 1856.

..and almost accomplished it.

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:28 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;814]Now you are being naive, what did the term "Greek" mean in the 17th century?[/QUOTE]

The term Greek was used for the Hellenes by the Western people since the Romans adopted that name for us since time immemorable.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:30 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;813][B]Sources?[/B]
Was there a massive "Greek migration" then ?:)[/QUOTE]

Friedman and Danforth for starters.

Yes there was a MASSIVE Greek migration in the 1920s, see this map:
[B][URL="http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/mapofgreecerefugeesettlements-1926.jpg"]CLICK HERE[/URL][/B]

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:32 AM

No denying 500,000 Eastern Greeks and others settled in Macedonia.
in 1925 the census in Macedonia read 1.3 million Greeks.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:32 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;816]It was definitely Ellhnes not Romioi.

This is not my arguement, Greeks were the only ones that revolted in Macedonia in 1821 then again in 1856.

..and almost accomplished it.[/QUOTE]

But Ellines was considered to be a term used for Pagans thus the Church was very much against that term.


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