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Carlin 04-25-2017 08:53 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167966](Answering some of my questions myself)

(Not sure how but) William Miller believes the Slavs were two distincts groups located as follows:

-Ezerites at Elos (this is at the Laconian Gulf between the middle and right finger of Peloponnese)

-Melingi at Taygetos Mountain (this mountain covers the middle finger of Peloponnese).[/QUOTE]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Illinois%20Classical%20Studies2C%20Volume%20182C%20Page%20333_zpsir26ud5d.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Illinois%20Classical%20Studies2C%20Volume%20182C%20Page%20333_zpsir26ud5d.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Carlin 04-25-2017 09:00 PM

- Akropolites' use of [I]Rhomaioi[/I] (and.. [I]'Latins' for 'Lakonians'[/I]?)

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Gill%20Page2C%20Being%20Byzantine%20etc2C%20Pages%20105-106.pdf_zpshnngoweb.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Gill%20Page2C%20Being%20Byzantine%20etc2C%20Pages%20105-106.pdf_zpshnngoweb.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Ruth%20Macrides2C%20George%20Akropolites2C%20The%20History%2028extracts29.pdf_zps1ukxbsmw.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Ruth%20Macrides2C%20George%20Akropolites2C%20The%20History%2028extracts29.pdf_zps1ukxbsmw.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

- Slavs of Skorta ([I]blue circled area in the map below[/I])

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/1_zpsicto0ifq.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/1_zpsicto0ifq.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/1_zpsfvv0raja.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/1_zpsfvv0raja.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/1_zpsvvifg174.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/1_zpsvvifg174.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/W.%20Leake2C%20Peloponnesiaca%20-%20A%20Supplement%20to%20Travels%20in%20the%20Morea%20Page%20154_zpsqnu8ykyc.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/W.%20Leake2C%20Peloponnesiaca%20-%20A%20Supplement%20to%20Travels%20in%20the%20Morea%20Page%20154_zpsqnu8ykyc.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Finlay%20George2C%20A%20history%20of%20Greece2C%20Crusades%20etc%20Pages%20213-214.pdf%201_zps3pmpzn19.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Finlay%20George2C%20A%20history%20of%20Greece2C%20Crusades%20etc%20Pages%20213-214.pdf%201_zps3pmpzn19.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/R.%20Jenkins2C%20Byzantium2C%20The%20Imperial%20Centuries2C%20Pages%2012-13_zpsokx4yufj.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/R.%20Jenkins2C%20Byzantium2C%20The%20Imperial%20Centuries2C%20Pages%2012-13_zpsokx4yufj.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

tchaiku 04-26-2017 11:28 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167923]What was the scale and impact of Roman colonization and immigration into Peloponnese & Greece? I am usually told, and hear, that the impact was minimal and that the number of colonists was not large (and that those who arrived were almost immediately hellenized).

[I][B]Processes of Cultural Change and Integration in the Roman World[/B][/I]
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=VDkLCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Roman+soldiers+settle+Patras+Corinth&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Roman%20soldiers%20settle%20Patras%20Corinth&f=false[/url]

Page 154: This paper presents the results of such context-specific case study. It focuses on the city of [B]Patras[/B], which was [B]colonized by Augustus in 14 B.C[/B]. [B]Colonization entailed a [U]massive influx of foreigners[/U] into the city[/B], among them [B]a large number of Roman army veterans.[/B]

Page 156: The [B]colonization[/B] of Patras took place in the context of the reorganization of Greece that was s[B]tarted by Caesar and continued by Augustus[/B].

Page 158: The settlement of veterans from Antony's legions after the battle of Actium must have posed a serious problem for Augustus, since, according to some estimations, [B]there were about [U]35,000[/U] veterans[/B] who had to be accommodated; [B]Patras was just one destination[/B] for the veterans. ...... [B]A third wave of immigration[/B] has been suggested by Keppie and Rizakis ........ The process of [B]large-scale immigration[/B] entailed major disruptions to local society. In the case of Patras the act of [B]colonization and the immigration of thousands of colonists[/B] led to a radical overthrow of the established order of things.





Who were then the medieval [I]Romaioi[/I] and [I]Tsacones[/I] of Peloponnese?[/QUOTE]

Many of those Medival Romans in Byzantine Empire were indeed ancient Hellenes, but I wonder how much did Roman conquest affect Greece?

tchaiku 04-26-2017 11:41 AM

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg[/IMG]

Carlin 04-26-2017 12:41 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167984]Many of those Medival Romans in Byzantine Empire were indeed ancient Hellenes, but I wonder how much did Roman conquest affect Greece?[/QUOTE]

Based on which sources do you base this belief on?

We have just read that up to 35,000 Roman veterans were settled in (southern) Greece, as well as having several waves of large-scale immigration into ([U]only[/U]) Corinth and Patras.

Furthermore, Justinian established Castle of Maina/[B]Mani[/B] and settled it with [B]Roman colonists[/B] from elsewhere. (I do not have the source handy.)

Let's not forget that - for want of Hellenes - 'Kapheroi, Thrakesians, Armenians, and others from different places and cities' were settled in Peloponnesos in the early ninth century.

Moreover, did we not already read (several times) the following:

- "And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythi-Slavs'."
- And for [U]Western Peloponnese[/U] in particular: "And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'".

There were also minor settlements of Christian Orthodox Seljuk Turk "Romaioi" in the Peloponnesos as well (sometime during/after the 13th century).

tchaiku 04-26-2017 12:54 PM

I meant ... before slavic migration. The Roman conquest and assimilation of Ancient Hellenes into Christian Romans but what I meant is that when Christianization took over, how many of those Pagans were Latin colonies or native Hellenes. You get me ...

Carlin 04-26-2017 06:48 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167988]I meant ... before slavic migration. The Roman conquest and assimilation of Ancient Hellenes into Christian Romans but what I meant is that when Christianization took over, how many of those Pagans were Latin colonies or native Hellenes. You get me ...[/QUOTE]

Ok, got it.

Before the Slavic migrations, I am sure there were some native Hellenes. However, let's not forget also that there were numerous incursions into the Balkans and Greece even earlier - and after the Roman conquest of Greece. One of the most devastating attacks was carried out by the Goths, in 3rd century AD.

The following is the same as my post #235 in this same thread:
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17&page=24[/url]

Citations are from Edward Gibbon's "The History of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". What was the extent of the Gothic invasion? Was it 'significant' or 'minor'? Interestingly, Gibbon himself states that troops of [U]Greek deserters and fugitive slaves[/U], which joined the Goths, were themselves [U]of German or Sarmatian[/U] (likely Slavic) extraction. How many Germans and Sarmatians were living in Greece at the time of the Gothic attack is impossible to determine.

Quotes:

- [I]At length the Gothic fleet anchored in the port of Piraeus, five miles distant from Athens, which had attempted to make some preparations for a vigorous defence. Cleodamus, one of the engineers employed by the emperor's orders to fortify the maritime cities against the Goths, had already begun to repair the ancient walls, fallen to decay since the time of Scylla. The efforts of his skill were ineffectual, and [B]the barbarians became masters of the native seat of the muses and the arts[/B]. But while the conquerors abandoned themselves to the license of plunder and intemperance, their fleet, that lay with a slender guard in the harbor of Piraeus, was unexpectedly attacked by the brave Dexippus, who, flying with the engineer Cleodamus from the sack of Athens, collected a hasty band of volunteers, peasants as well as soldiers, and in some measure avenged the calamities of his country.[/I]

- [I]But this exploit, whatever lustre it might shed on the declining age of Athens, served rather to irritate than to subdue the undaunted spirit of the northern invaders. [B]A [U]general conflagration blazed out[/U] at the same time in every district of Greece. Thebes and Argos, Corinth and Sparta, which had formerly waged such memorable wars against each other, were now [U]unable[/U] to bring an army into the field, or even to defend their ruined fortifications.[/B] [B][U]The rage of war[/U], both by land and by sea, [U]spread from the eastern point of Sunium to the western coast of Epirus[/U]. [/B]The Goths had already advanced within sight of Italy, when the approach of such imminent danger awakened the indolent Gallienus from his dream of pleasure.[/I]

[I]- But as their numbers were gradually wasted by the sword, by shipwrecks, and by the influence of a warm climate, they were perpetually renewed by troops of banditti and deserters, who flocked to the standard of plunder, and by a crowd of fugitive slaves, [B]often of German or Sarmatian extraction[/B], who eagerly seized the glorious opportunity of freedom and revenge.
[/I]

Amphipolis 04-26-2017 07:51 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167945][ Note that the Italians called the Byzantine Arberesh [B]Greci[/B]? So, WHO are then the Greci / Greeks? Isn't this a contradiction? :) ][/QUOTE]

The only reason that the Italians called these people Greek (Arberesh were Christian Albanians who escaped Ottoman Empire and moved to Italy) is because they were Greek-Orthodox. They were also (linguistically) Hellenized, for instance the Bilbe hadn't been translated in Albanian at that time.

Amphipolis 04-26-2017 08:19 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167969]
1. The Venetian documents mention Albanians in Tzaconia.
2. The Mardaites inhabited the territory of Monemvasia, or modern Tzaconia.
3. Like 'Mardaite', the word 'Tzacon' did not mean a [I]people[/I], but a category of [I]soldiers[/I].
4. According to historian Sathas: the [I]ancient Tzaconians[/I] belong to [B]Albanian[/B] sailors of Kranidi, Hydra.
5. Philippson admits that Slavic colonies existed in Vatika also, that is to say south of the fortress of Tzaconia and close to Monemvasia. Some Slavic place names reinforce this supposition.
6. As per Chalkokondyles and geographer Meletios, the regions of Taygetos, land of Laconia, and promontory of Tenaron were long inhabited by Romani (that is, Vlachs / Armanoi).
7. The Vlachs / Armanoi have been variously called by different writers and in different places by a variety of names: Maniati, [B]Laconi[/B], Bui, Megalovlahiti, Dasareti, Meteori, etc.
8. Stam. C. Caratzas states that "Two indications argue for the existence of a relationship between Tzacones and Vlachs in popular poetry."
9. Per author F. Curta, the "Tzakonians" appear to have been settled in the Peloponnesus in the course of the ninth and tenth century. The viewpoint that the Tzakonians were settled in the Peloponnesus, from elsewhere, is also supported and shared by the author Stamatis C. Caratzas. There exists a legend which states that Tzakonians originate from Macedonia, namely from the area of Chalkidiki peninsula - and specifically, from the vicinity of Mount Athos district (Holy Mountain).
10. Evliya Tchelebi compares the physical features of the inhabitants of Tzaconia between Molai and Monemvasia, to those of Tatar-Kalmyks.
11. Investigator Katsanis: "The Tsakonian was influenced without doubt by the Aromanian tongue."
12. In village Geraki of Laconia the words ‘κρούσκος/krouskos=relation by marriage’ and ‘τάτας/tatas=father’ correspond to Aromanian ‘cúscru’ and ‘táta’. ‘Γκάλμπινος/galmpinos/ in Greek idioms of the Peloponnese and Epirus means 'blond’, ‘pale yellow’, ‘sallow’, ‘gook’, while ‘galbinu’ is the ‘yellow’ in Aromanian."
13. In the petition of Monembasiotes (1527), the nearby residents of Monemvasia are named Vlachs (Βλάχοι).

[/QUOTE]
Not sure where to start, I numbered the above points:

1. At some point, Albanians DO live at the area that is called Tzaconia. That doesn’t mean the two groups are one, they were never confused.

2. Really? When? Were these Mardaites Albanians?

3. Not after a while, as we can see. Everyone (for some reason) doesn’t avoid to single them out as a distinct linguistic group, not a social one.

4. LOL, I didn’t know Tzaconians or Albanians were ancient. What does this phrase mean? We want to know more.

5. Slavs existing at the south of Tzaconia, there’s no problem with that, I can’t see your point. As seen in Mazaris, Tzaconians can’t be confused with Slavs. Also, they still exist today (unlike Slavs) and we can study their language.

6. Yes, but that is not in Tzaconia. I understand you lost these Vlachs and you can’t find them anywhere. Also, it’s clear that these Vlachs had just arrived, they were not there during Mazaris work, were they already lost during Celebi’s travels?

7. No, no, no. That’s totally wrong and should be further discussed, investigated. Maniotes or Laconians/Tzaconians were not Vlachs.

8. This could be the fuzziest statement ever. Why do you keep repeating it since it means nothing? Which are these indications?

9. Mount Athos doesn’t have people, it is only restricted to monks.

10. There’s a bit of a problem, that these areas are not inhabited by Tzaconians at the moment (remember? You had busted our balls about that) but we certainly want to know more about this passage anyway. I’m very interested in Celebi.

11. LOL, Is it without doubt because of the …

12. … huge linguistic connection presented here?

13. Not sure what this means, but I’d like to see it again. So when are the Vlach traces finally lost?


===

Amphipolis 04-26-2017 08:28 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167968]
The full translation of the highlighted text is:
[I]
It is forbidden to the Venetians and subjects of the Republic to transport salt ... from Glarenza/Clarence and elsewhere to [B]Tzaconia or Sclavonia[/B].[/I][/QUOTE]

So this refers to two places or one with two alternate names? Are there other sources mentioning this Venetian Sclavonia?

Amphipolis 04-26-2017 08:37 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167972]

In addition, the entry refers to both the number of inhabitants of the area (40,000) at the time of the original work (1812) and its "ethnological recommendation" (in the view of the dictionary writer).

Specifically, it is reported that there was a mixture in that area (mescuglio = mixture in the Venetian language) of [B]Spartani[/B] and [B]Slavs[/B] ([B]Schiavoni[/B] = Slavs in the Venetian language) at that time.

("Albanians", "Vlachs", "Greeks", "Mardaites" are all absent. And who were these [I]Spartani[/I]?)[/QUOTE]

Spartani means... Spartans. You can't expect much. This is a generic dictionary so it draws basic information from other sources. Based on the various terms we've seen may times in this thread it could mean Peloponnesians, Maniotes (specifically as this is about Mani), I don't think this one refers to Tzaconians (who are also called Lacedaemonians, Laconians or Spartans).

Amphipolis 04-26-2017 09:11 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167975]- Akropolites' use of [I]Rhomaioi[/I] (and.. [I]'Latins' for 'Lakonians'[/I]?)[/QUOTE]

This is a translation mistake (Latins instead of Laconians) of this Bonn Edition as explained in page 382.

Carlin 04-26-2017 10:05 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;167999]So this refers to two places or one with two alternate names? Are there other sources mentioning this Venetian Sclavonia?[/QUOTE]

This seems to refer to one place: Tzaconia [B][U]or[/U][/B] Sclavonia.

Greek author Amantos refused to accept that this testimony refers to the same country or region.

There is another testimony, which I already shared on this forum, which states: [I]Ad partes [U]Zachoniae vel Sclavoniae[/U] de Romania[/I] -- Maggior Consiglio, Deliberazioni. Zaneta, Pilosus [B]1287-1299[/B], c. 361 [B]Archives de Venise[/B].

The Venetian Chancery continued to call the department of Monemvasia or Tzaconia [B]Sclavonia[/B] until the fifteenth century. This denomination could have been a loan though - but we have seen that it was already circulating in the time of Saint Willibald.

Saint Willibald (723 AD) assigned to the department of Tzaconia the denomination of [I]terra Slavinia[/I], and this was centuries before the terms Tzaconia and Tzaconians even begin to take shape.

Carlin 04-26-2017 11:17 PM

Hi Amphipolis,

[I]1. At some point, Albanians DO live at the area that is called Tzaconia. That doesn’t mean the two groups are one, they were never confused.[/I]

I don’t necessarily disagree with you but there are quite a few [I]contradictions[/I], [I]confusions[/I] and [I]unclear[/I] references. [B]* - See below.[/B]


[I]2. Really? When? Were these Mardaites Albanians?[/I]

9th century. Post #10 in the following thread -
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=405[/url]

[I]Hard[/I] to know if these Mardaites were Albanians. It is a distinct possibility.


[I]3. Not after a while, as we can see. Everyone (for some reason) doesn’t avoid to single them out as a distinct linguistic group, not a social one.[/I]

Yes, and they are classified separately and distinguished even from the Greeks. As we saw, B. Randolph wrote that "THE Inhabitants of the Morea, are Turks, Greeks, Albaneses and T'Zackonians."

As a result, the Tzaconians can’t be confused with Greeks. This indicates they may have been hellenized at some point, or even bilingual.

Or do you think Randolph made an error, and a confusion?

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6633&page=12[/url]


[I]4. LOL, I didn’t know Tzaconians or Albanians were ancient. What does this phrase mean? We want to know more.[/I]

Verbatim quote from Sathas, translated from French. Check out google books.


[I]5. Slavs existing at the south of Tzaconia, there’s no problem with that, I can’t see your point. As seen in Mazaris, Tzaconians can’t be confused with Slavs. Also, they still exist today (unlike Slavs) and we can study their language.[/I]

Ok. Speaking of their language, Valentina Fedchenko stated the following on pages 77 and 78:
--> The dialect speakers [U]maintained contacts[/U] with the mainland throughout the Middle Ages until the early part of the 19th c. As a result, [U]the isolation argument can be questioned[/U].
--> Contacts with other languages and Greek dialects are confirmed on the syncronic level by the Tsakonian [U]lexical borrowings[/U].
--> The description of Tsakonian as having traces of ancient Greek Dorian (Laconian) dialect [U]seems to be a simplified one and neglects a few facts[/U] (one of them being the fact that different 'ancient' features ascribed to Tsakonian can be found is some other Greek dialects).

[url]http://www.academia.edu/5743870/Subdialectal_diversity_in_the_Tsakonian-speaking_area_of_Arcadia[/url]


[I]6. Yes, but that is not in Tzaconia. I understand you lost these Vlachs and you can’t find them anywhere. Also, it’s clear that these Vlachs had just arrived, they were not there during Mazaris work, were they already lost during Celebi’s travels?[/I]

I thought Tzaconia encompassed a much larger territory in the distant past?

Peloponnesiaca: A Supplement to Travels in the Moréa, By William Martin Leake.
Page 336, Laconians = Tzakonians = Maniates:

".. for it is evident from the anonymous Metrical Chronicle of the Wars of the Franks in the Morea in the 13th century, that Tzakonia had then a much wider signification. Even as late as the beginning of the 18th century we find the Venetians applying the name Zaccunia to all the ancient Laconia, [U]including Mani[/U]. There remains, therefore, the strongest reason to believe that the Lakones or Tzakones mentioned by Pachymer and Gregoras [U]consisted chiefly of Maniates[/U]."

I am lost for sure. : )


[I]7. No, no, no. That’s totally wrong and should be further discussed, investigated. Maniotes or Laconians/Tzaconians were not Vlachs.[/I]

Verbatim quote from a Romanian author.


[I]8. This could be the fuzziest statement ever. Why do you keep repeating it since it means nothing? Which are these indications?[/I]

Lifted from Caratzas. I can provide futher and more detailed translations. Parts of his book can be found on google books.


[I]9. Mount Athos doesn’t have people, it is only restricted to monks.[/I]

[I]To reduce temptations to a minimum, a ban on women and female livestock has been in effect for nearly 10 centuries. The official stories carefully fail to mention the real reason why they are not allowed in the monastic state:[B] the Vlachs[/B]. For centuries, [B]the monks [U]and these nomad shepherds[/U], who went there to find winter pasture for their sheep, [U]lived side by side[/U] in relative peace.[/B]

Gradually, an increasing number of monks were “tempted” into sneaking ladies wearing men's clothes into the monasteries. “The things that occurred are shameful both to tell and to hear,” said a witness to these events.[/I]

[url]https://www.vagabond.bg/travel/foreign-travel/item/622-for-mens-eyes-only.html[/url]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=tK6OAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=women+mount+athos+vlachs&source=bl&ots=YrcZwZbR_Y&sig=WOG8EjXT5mgn2dmZ-3A-t_l5R1o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1-N762sPTAhWC6oMKHUFDBsEQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=women%20mount%20athos%20vlachs&f=false[/url]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=J6bxIhNMRn0C&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=vlachs+mount+athos&source=bl&ots=gdZQ3jJWX-&sig=vC_-oHibTK1JUIutuf004W1uq28&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC06yH2sPTAhWH2YMKHSMdBz0Q6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=vlachs%20mount%20athos&f=false[/url]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=qlU37xo9LeUC&pg=PA256&dq=vlachs+expelled+mount+athos&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3hauE3cPTAhUm94MKHarJBcUQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=vlachs%20expelled%20mount%20athos&f=false[/url]

The expelled laity / Vlachs from Mt. Athos were resettled in the Peloponnese, namely Tzaconia. Can elaborate on this.


[I]10. There’s a bit of a problem, that these areas are not inhabited by Tzaconians at the moment (remember? You had busted our balls about that) but we certainly want to know more about this passage anyway. I’m very interested in Celebi.[/I]

Post #48 in the following thread (it includes the screenshot of page 204, in French) -
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6633&page=5[/url]


[I]11. LOL, Is it without doubt because of the …
12. … huge linguistic connection presented here?[/I]

#11 was lifted from the article Waren die peloponnesischen Melinger Vlachen? by Johann Benos, where Katsanis was cited. Katsanis wrote [Κατσάνης, Ν.] 1989. Κουτσοβλάχικα και Τσακώνικα (Arumanian and Tsakonian). Ελληνική Διαλεκτολογία 1: 41-54 -- which Benos referenced, so we should check with him. Unfortunately, I am unable to find or order this book online.

#12 is a separate remark which was made by Antonis Bousboukis here:

[url]http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-relationship-of-aromanians-with.html[/url]


[I]13. Not sure what this means, but I’d like to see it again. So when are the Vlach traces finally lost?[/I]

Here - [U]page 120[/U] in the book [B]Les Tzacones[/B], [B]footnote 190[/B]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=i_vafS-PiDoC&pg=PA120&dq=Apud+Volchiam+et+alias&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNl4uA4sPTAhUM24MKHRmnDR8Q6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=Apud%20Volchiam%20et%20alias&f=false[/url]


Also here - check the footnotes, where it says: [I]Dans la petition des Monembasiotes (1527)...[/I]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=0bUdvmsCP7IC&pg=PR71&lpg=PR71&dq=Vulachi+Monembasiotes&source=bl&ots=UpKceGf2v6&sig=YGpMJbisr_AzP-6sk_10fQgWcGE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidvdGu4cPTAhUL2IMKHft1DNcQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=Vulachi%20Monembasiotes&f=false[/url]


I guess (only small, perhaps last) traces is in Cousinery’s reference in 1831 to the presence of Vlach-speakers, probably Arvanitovlachs, in the area of Argos in the Peloponnese. He reports that, after the War of Independence of 1821, he met some Vlachs, men and women, in Argos market, who told him that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the mountains around Argos. He also notes that these Vlachs spoke a Latinate language, like the Vlachs he had met in Macedonia.

[url]http://www.vlachs.gr/en/home/english/studies-on-the-vlachs/the-vlachs-metropolis-and-diaspora/the-arvanitovlachs-in-roumeli-mainland-greece[/url]



[B]* - From #1 [/B](I wonder how accurate is Sathas in his interpretations..):

[B]PAGE LXXII OF Documents inédits relatifs à l'histoire de la Grèce au Moyen âge publiés ... By Konstantinos N. Sathas[/B]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=0bUdvmsCP7IC&pg=PR72&dq=Tzaconiens+Pindus&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiO46625sPTAhWI6IMKHdofB9cQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Tzaconiens%20Pindus&f=false[/url]
[B]
French: Chalcondyle et l'archeveque Meletius pretendent que les Tzaconiens sont originaires du mont Pindus. Au temps de lempereur Cantacuzene, cette montagne appartenait aux Albanais.
[/B]
[B]English:[/B]
[B]Chalcocondyle and Archbishop Meletius claim that [U]the Tzaconians are from Mount Pindus[/U]. In the time of the Emperor Cantacuzene, this mountain belonged to the Albanians.[/B]

tchaiku 04-27-2017 06:47 AM

Mardaites, Albanians and Vlachs were Christians unlike Tsakones who were Pagans.

If they were worshiping Slavic Gods, Constantine VII wouldn't call them ''older Romans''.
They were probably worshiping Zeus/Jupiter.

Carlin 04-28-2017 01:39 PM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/MishewTitle_zpszopc9xlf.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/MishewTitle_zpszopc9xlf.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Mishew10_zpsjtsh7eki.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew10_zpsjtsh7eki.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Mishew11_zpsgsf8ouq1.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew11_zpsgsf8ouq1.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Mishew12_zpsq5zqnwur.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew12_zpsq5zqnwur.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Mishew15_zpsdhi42dim.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew15_zpsdhi42dim.png[/IMG][/URL]

Amphipolis 04-28-2017 06:52 PM

Did you know there's a village of black people in Greece? I first heard about it in the 1980s and thought of searching about them in the internet era. The village is called Avaton and is in Thrace. Back then (in less politically correct times) they were saying these blacks were so idiot that they didn't even know when/where they came from, even though they came quite recently.

The first theory was that they were African slaves of the Turks that were offered liberty during the population exchanges.

Another theory was that they were a black battalion of a European Army that stayed in Thrace after WWI.

Here's a link and pictures of them. As they say, now that they have started to mix with whites, they have become whiter/colorful. I may be wrong, but I think they are Muslims, and according to the link they come from Sudan or they were originally sold as slaves in Saudi Arabia.

[URL="http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=415642"]http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=415642[/URL]


===

Risto the Great 04-28-2017 07:36 PM

[IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Mishew12_zpsq5zqnwur.png[/IMG]

75% slavic, 10% "new Greek", 10% "ancient" and 10% Albanian.

Almost 1000 years ago.
But pure Greek now.
:blink:

Amphipolis 04-29-2017 12:39 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;168104]
75% slavic, 10% "new Greek", 10% "ancient" and 10% Albanian.

Almost 1000 years ago.
But pure Greek now.
:blink:[/QUOTE]

LOL, If Kiepert considers 75% of the toponyms in South Greece as Slavic, I would like to see this paper and this list.

Risto the Great 04-29-2017 12:43 AM

LOL, nobody is talking about the names they use now. We all know they're pure Greek now

Amphipolis 04-29-2017 12:55 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;168116]LOL, nobody is talking about the names they use now. We all know they're pure Greek now[/QUOTE]

I'm interested in all eras and lists of names. This is Kiepert's map (good zoom options):

[URL="https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/collections/maps/kiepert/G6801-E1-1882-K5.html"]https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/collections/maps/kiepert/G6801-E1-1882-K5.html[/URL]

Where are the Slavic names?

tchaiku 04-29-2017 02:14 AM

Tsakonians called themselves Tsakones. So I ask if they were indeed ancient Hellenes, why didn't they call themselves Ellines or Dorian like an Hellene would?

Carlin 04-29-2017 05:44 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;168103]Did you know there's a village of black people in Greece? I first heard about it in the 1980s and thought of searching about them in the internet era. The village is called Avaton and is in Thrace. Back then (in less politically correct times) they were saying these blacks were so idiot that they didn't even know when/where they came from, even though they came quite recently.

The first theory was that they were African slaves of the Turks that were offered liberty during the population exchanges.

Another theory was that they were a black battalion of a European Army that stayed in Thrace after WWI.

Here's a link and pictures of them. As they say, now that they have started to mix with whites, they have become whiter/colorful. I may be wrong, but I think they are Muslims, and according to the link they come from Sudan or they were originally sold as slaves in Saudi Arabia.

[URL="http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=415642"]http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=415642[/URL]


===[/QUOTE]

This is quite interesting. I assume these villagers are rather fluent Greek-speakers?

It shows plainly and demonstrates how [I]irrelevant[/I], 'scientifically' speaking, are people's beliefs in terms of how [I]they feel[/I] regarding their ethnic or racial descent. The Avanton residents came recently, no? (I wonder when did they actually arrive?)

Nevertheless, they arrived "recently" yet there are already at least a couple of "competing theories" floating around as to their history, country or place of origin.

If these villagers had a different skin color or religion (i.e. same skin color as modern Greeks) I am sure they would have the 'right' and 'option' to declare themselves as descendants of ancient Hellenes. I am sure there would be scholars formulating theories to this effect. Alas, their skin color betrays their origin.

Carlin 04-29-2017 05:46 PM

Just sharing the following. Do not agree with some of the explanations & theories, as they seem to be [I]speculation[/I].

THE SLAVS IN THE PELOPONNESUS — (P. 323-4)

All unprejudiced investigators now admit the cogency of the evidence which shows that by the middle of the eighth century there was a very large Slavonic element in the population of the Peloponnesus1 The Slavonic settlements began in the latter half of the sixth century, and in the middle of the eighth century the depopulation caused by the great plague invited the intrusion of large masses. The general complexion of the peninsula was so Slavonic that it was called Sclavonia. The only question to be determined is, how were these strangers distributed, and what parts of the Peloponnesus were Slavised? For answering these questions, the names of places are our chief evidence. Here, as in the Slavonic districts which became part of Germany, the Slavs ultimately gave up their own language and exerted hardly any sensible influence on the language which they adopted; but they introduced new local names which survived. It was just the reverse, as has been well remarked by Philippson, in the case of the Albanese settlers, who in the fourteenth century brought a new ethnical element into the Peloponnesus. The Albanians preserved their own language, but the old local names were not altered.


Now we find Slavonic names scattered about in all parts of the Peloponnesus; but they are comparatively few on the Eastern side, in Argolis and Eastern Laconia. They are numerous in Arcadia and Achaia, in Elis, Messenia and Western Laconia. But the existence of Slavonic settlements does not prove that the old Hellenic inhabitants were abolished in these districts. In fact we can only say that a large part of Elis, the slopes of Taygetus, and a district in the south of Laconia, were exclusively given over to the Slavs. Between Megalopolis and Sparta there was an important town, which has completely disappeared, called Veligosti; and this region was probably a centre of Slavonic settlers.
See the impartial investigation of Dr. A. Philippson, Zur Ethnographie des Peloponnes in Petermann’s Mittheilungen, vol. 36, p. 1 sqq. and 33 sqq., 1890.


The conversion and Hellenisation of the Slavs went on together from the ninth century, and, with the exception of the settlements in Taygetus and the Arcadian mountains, were completed by the twelfth century. At the time of the conquest of the Peloponnesus by Villehardouin, four ethnical elements are distinguished by Philippson: (1) Remains of the old Hellenes, mixed with Slavs, in Maina and Tzakonia, (2) Byzantine Greeks (i.e., Byzantinised Hellenes, and settlers from other parts of the Empire) in the towns. (3) Greek-speaking Slavo-Greeks (sprung from unions of Slavs and Greeks). (4) Almost pure Slavs in Arcadia and Taygetus. The 2nd and 3rd classes tend to coalesce and ultimately become indistinguishable (except in physiognomy).


The old Greek element lived on purest perhaps in the district between Mt. Parnon and the Sea — Eastern Laconia. The inhabitants came to be called Tzakones and the district Tzakonia; and they developed a remarkable dialect of their own. They were long supposed to be Slavs. See A. Thumb, Die ethnographische Stellung der Zakonen (Indogerm. Forschungen, iv. 195 sqq., 1894).


Fallmerayer, in harmony with his Slavonic theory, proposed to derive the name Morea from the Slavonic more, sea. This etymology defied the linguistic laws of Slavonic word-formation. Other unacceptable derivations have been suggested, but we have at last got back to the old mulberry, but in a new sense. ὁ Μορέας is formed from μορέα, “mulberry tree,” with the meaning “plantation or region of mulberry trees” (= μορεών). We find the name first applied to Elis, whence it spread to the whole Peloponnesus; and it is a memorial of the extensive cultivation of mulberries for the manufacture of silk. This explanation is due to the learned and scientific Greek philologist, M. G. N. Hatzidakês (Byz. Zeitsch. vol. 2, p. 283 sqq., and vol. 5, p. 341, sqq.).


[1 ]The thesis of Fallmerayer, who denied that there were any descendants of the ancient Hellenes in Greece, was refuted by Hopf (and Hertzberg and others); but all Hopf’s arguments are not convincing. Fallmerayer’s brilliant book stimulated the investigation of the subject (Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea im Mittelalter, 2 vols., 1830-6).

[url]http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/gibbon-the-history-of-the-decline-and-fall-of-the-roman-empire-vol-9[/url]

Amphipolis 04-29-2017 07:08 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;168152]This is quite interesting. I assume these villagers are rather fluent Greek-speakers?

It shows plainly and demonstrates how [I]irrelevant[/I], 'scientifically' speaking, are people's beliefs in terms of how [I]they feel[/I] regarding their ethnic or racial descent. The Avanton residents came recently, no? (I wonder when did they actually arrive?)

Nevertheless, they arrived "recently" yet there are already at least a couple of "competing theories" floating around as to their history, country or place of origin.

If these villagers had a different skin color or religion (i.e. same skin color as modern Greeks) I am sure they would have the 'right' and 'option' to declare themselves as descendants of ancient Hellenes. I am sure there would be scholars formulating theories to this effect. Alas, their skin color betrays their origin.[/QUOTE]

Muslims of Thrace are good Greek-speakers, not always fluent.

Slavery in Ottoman Empire was abolished in the 1880s. These were probably slaves from Sudan to Saudi Arabia for some generations before being sold to Thrace. So my guess is they arrived here in the 1880s the latest.

I don’t see how a white Christian foreigner can declare a descendant of ancient Greeks.

Risto the Great 04-29-2017 08:48 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;168159]I don’t see how a white Christian foreigner can declare a descendant of ancient Greeks.[/QUOTE]
Finally we agree.

Amphipolis 04-30-2017 01:30 AM

By the way the text of post#504 is written by the editor of the book (John Bagnell Bury) in the early 1900s to correct the author (Edward Gibbon from late 1700s) or give updated information.

Based on this I would like to see more from Philippson and his categories or is it already posted here?

Carlin 04-30-2017 06:59 AM

I have not been able to find more from Philippson.

tchaiku 05-04-2017 02:11 PM

During the Greek revolution they conquered a small island. They proclaimed to the villagers they were free Greeks. Some little children walked up, with a thick accent, and they said:

“We are not Greeks, we are Romans.”

Turks still call Greeks [I]Rum[/I] when they are not in Greece: Greek Cypriots, and the Greek minority in Turkey.

Liberator of Makedonija 05-04-2017 10:27 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;168467]During the Greek revolution they conquered a small island. They proclaimed to the villagers they were free Greeks. Some little children walked up, with a thick accent, and they said:

“We are not Greeks, we are Romans.”

Turks still call Greeks [I]Rum[/I] when they are not in Greece: Greek Cypriots, and the Greek minority in Turkey.[/QUOTE]


No surprises here, pleny of evidence of the populace of what is now called Greece declaring themselves to be Romans and their language 'Romaika'

Carlin 05-06-2017 12:19 AM

[B][COLOR="Blue"]@ Amphipolis[/COLOR][/B]

URL:
[url]http://www.kathimerini.gr/717886/opinion/epikairothta/arxeio-monimes-sthles/grammata-anagnwstwn[/url]

Hi Amphipolis, did I understand this correctly? Does the author [B]Δημος Π. Γεωργιου[/B] state and explain that [COLOR="Blue"][B]There are many signs in the area [/B](of Corinthia) [B]of ​​the[/B] [B]presence of Armenians, Georgians, Persians, and Anatolians[/B][/COLOR]? Thanks.

(The text is a letter titled "Old Stories", which was sent to Kathimerini newspaper and published on 16/12/2009.)

tchaiku 05-06-2017 01:59 AM

1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, Volume 28


1) South of the Danube, about[B] 500,000 [/B]are scattered over[B] northern Greece and European Turkey[/B], under the name of Kutzo-Vlachs, Tzintzars or Aromani. It is noteworthy that the Rumans north of the Danube continually gain ground at the expense of their neighbours;[I] and even the long successful Greek propaganda among the Kutzo-Vlachs were checked after 1860 by the labours of Apostolu Margaritis and other nationalists[/I].

2)
a) [B]Little Walachia (Μικρά Βλαχία) was a name applied by [B][U]Byzantine writers[/U][/B] to the Ruman settlements of [U]Aetolia [/U]and Acarnania, and with it may be [U]included [/U]“Upper Walachia,” or Ανώβλαχα. Its inhabitants are still represented by the Tzintzars of the Aspropotamo and the Karaguni (Black Capes) of Acarnania.[/B]
[This explains why in George Castelan's book Pindus mountains were called ''Little Walachia'']

b) Great Walachia (Μεγάλη Βλαχία).—It is from Anna Comnena, in the second half of the 11th century, that we first hear of a Vlach settlement, the nucleus of which was the mountainous region of Thessaly Benjamin of Tudela, in the succeeding century, gives an interesting account of this Great Walachia, then completely independent. It embraced the southern and central ranges of Pindus, and extended over part of Macedonia, thus including the region in which the Roman settlers mentioned in the Acts of St Demetrius had fixed their abode. After the Latin conquest of Constantinople in 1204, Great Walachia was included in the enlarged despotate of Epirus, but it soon reappears as an independent principality under its old name, which, after passing under the yoke of the Serb emperor Dushan, was finally conquered by the Turks in 1393. Many of their old privileges were accorded to the inhabitants, and their taxes were limited to an annual tribute. [B][U]Since this period the Megalovlachites have been largely Hellenized, but they are still represented by the flourishing Tzintzar settlements of Pindus and its neighbourhood[/U][/B] (see Macedonia).

3)
After the overthrow of the older Bulgarian tsardom by Basil Bulgaroktonos (976-1025), the Vlach Political and territorial divisions. population of Thrace, Haemus and the Moesian lands passed once more under Byzantine dominion; and in 1185 a heavy tax, levied in kind on the cattle of these warlike mountain shepherds, stirred the[B][U] Vlachs to revolt against the emperor Isaac Angelus[/U][/B], and under the leadership of two brothers, Peter and Asen, to found a new Bulgaro-Vlachian empire, which ended with Kaliman II in 1257. The dominions of these half-Slavonic half-Ruman emperors extended north of the Danube over a great deal of what is now Rumania, and it was during this period that the Vlach population north of the river seems to have been most largely reinforced. The 13th century French traveller Rubruquis speaks of all the country between Don and Danube as Asen's land or Blakia.

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/EB1911_-_Volume_28.djvu/page182-1024px-EB1911_-_Volume_28.djvu.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/EB1911_-_Volume_28.djvu/page183-1024px-EB1911_-_Volume_28.djvu.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/EB1911_-_Volume_28.djvu/page184-1024px-EB1911_-_Volume_28.djvu.jpg[/IMG]

Amphipolis 05-06-2017 02:23 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;168509][B][COLOR="Blue"]@ Amphipolis[/COLOR][/B]

URL:
[url]http://www.kathimerini.gr/717886/opinion/epikairothta/arxeio-monimes-sthles/grammata-anagnwstwn[/url]

Hi Amphipolis, did I understand this correctly? Does the author [B]Δημος Π. Γεωργιου[/B] state and explain that [COLOR="Blue"][B]There are many signs in the area [/B](of Corinthia) [B]of ​​the[/B] [B]presence of Armenians, Georgians, Persians, and Anatolians[/B][/COLOR]? Thanks.

(The text is a letter titled "Old Stories", which was sent to Kathimerini newspaper and published on 16/12/2009.)[/QUOTE]

He is basically arguing that Arvanites of Eastern Corinthia (and Albanians in general) are actually Armenians, Paulicians etc. This is a well written text and google translation gives a miraculously good result, BUT

... as I suspected this University Professor is... a Mechanical Engineer with an amateur interest in surnames etymology. His theories are probably a little wild and you will not find references or details in there.

tchaiku 05-06-2017 05:23 AM

[B]The Byzantine writer Cecaumenos, in his Strategicon of 1066 wrote that the Vlachs of Epirus and Thessalia came from [U]North of the Danube and from along the Sava[/U] and that they were the descendants of the Dacians and the Bessi.[/B]

Carlin 05-07-2017 01:25 AM

[I]Constantinople and the echo chamber: the Vlachs in the French crusade chronicles[/I], Florin Curta

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Curta456_zpsetmdbvzt.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Curta456_zpsetmdbvzt.png[/IMG][/URL]


URL:
[url]https://www.academia.edu/28202191/Constantinople_and_the_echo_chamber_the_Vlachs_in_the_French_crusade_chronicles[/url]

tchaiku 05-08-2017 11:41 AM

2 — Long before the tenth century the name [B]Tsakones [/B]was used by the [U][B]Tsakonians themselves[/B][/U]. 3 — When they finally became Christians, the ethnological significance of the name Tsakones was [B][U]already [/U][/B][B][U]obscure[/U][/B], and they continued to be so called when they were introduced as Christians in the service of the Empire.

The chief characteristics of Tsakonic had been long established (see G. P. Anagnostopoulos, Tsakonische Grammatik (1926),
Read here:
[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=2OdWAAAAMAAJ&q=Tsakones+was+already+obscure,+and+they+continued+to+be+so+Kynouria:+Its+History+in+the+Light+of+Existing+Remains&dq=Tsakones+was+already+obscure,+and+they+continued+to+be+so+Kynouria:+Its+History+in+the+Light+of+Existing+Remains&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR7sev3uDTAhXQFsAKHc1DDjQQ6AEIJTAA[/url]

Carlin 05-08-2017 09:11 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;168559]Long before the tenth century the name [B]Tsakones [/B]was used by the [U][B]Tsakonians themselves[/B][/U][/QUOTE]

This is a bold claim. What is the evidence to back this up?

We would need a document, [U]from before the tenth century[/U] (preferably written by a Tsaconian author) that the name Tsakones was used by the Tsakonians themselves.

The following is from Bulletin de l'Association Guillaume Budé, 1978. Page 216:

[I][COLOR="Blue"]"les tsacones sont des soldats de second rang, des auxiliaires. Le terme apparait d'abord en Asie Mineure. A partir du VIIIe siecle, des heretiques, les Pauliciens, sont transferes en masse d'Asie Mineure sur la frontiere byzantino-bulgare y servir comme tsacones, d'ou la valeur religieuse ..."[/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR="Blue"][B]
"the Tsaconians are second-class soldiers, auxiliaries. The term first appeared in Asia Minor. From the eighth century onwards, heretics, the Paulicians, were transferred in large numbers from Asia Minor to the Byzantine-Bulgarian border and served as Tsaconians, hence the religious value ..."[/B][/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=3M5TAAAAIAAJ&q=tsacones&dq=tsacones&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y[/url]

Carlin 05-08-2017 09:49 PM

1) [B]Tsakonian dialect of Modern Greek[/B]
Maxim Kisilier & Valentina Fedchenko

[url]https://www.researchgate.net/project/Tsakonian-dialect-of-Modern-Greek[/url]

Despite multiple descriptions Tsakonian still remains one of the most mysterious Modern Greek (= MG) dialects. Brian Newton even prefers to exclude it from his classification, and Peter Trudgill finds just few isoglosses that are relevant both for Tsakonian and other MG dialects. Most descriptions of Tsakonian keep repeating that Tsakonian is the most ancient MG dialect, it escaped any influence of Hellenistic Koine and its strange features still exist because the speakers did not contacts with the speakers of other MG dialects till in 1960–1970th.
However, [B]Tsakonians were not so isolated as it might seem[/B] and many Tsakonian peculiarities (special phonetics, analytic verb forms etc.) cannot be easily explained, but comparing with other MG dialects or by means of typological analysis.
[B]The data I gathered in Tsakonia during last six years makes me disagree with the widespread opinion[/B]. The analysis of vocabulary definitely shows [B]many loans from Italian[/B] (/koléγa/ ‘friend’), [B]especially from the Venetian dialect[/B] (bobóta ‘maize bread’) [B]and various Balkan languages[/B]: Slavic (/ambárja/ ‘granary’), Albanian (/kórbe/ ‘black goat’), Aromanian (/búrda/ ‘sack’). Most Tsakonian words (regardless their origin) have parallels in other MG dialects. For example, /strúnga/ ‘yard for cattle’, /vlámi/ ‘lover’, /fára/ ‘family, tribe’ are also met in Thessalian. It means that Tsakonian was in continuous contact with other languages and probably with other MG dialects. Probably this experience of [B]permanent [U]multilingual situation[/U][/B] helped Tsakonian to survive when Standard MG became dominant in the region.

2) [B]Palatal Sonants in Tsakonian. Discussing the Problem[/B]
Maxim Kisilier & Valentina Fedchenko

[url]http://www.tsakonianarchives.gr/meletes-palatal-sonants-tsakonian-discussing-problem/[/url]

Tsakonian is the most mysterious Greek dialect. Famous Turkish traveler Evliya Çelebi noted about 1668 that nobody can understand inhabitants of Tsakonia without an interpreter: [B]they speak neither Greek nor Italian[/B]. Even today Tsakonian is almost incomprehensible for other Greeks. It falls out of all current classifications of Greek dialects because the [B]majority of Tsakonian [U][B]phonetic features[/B][/U] doesn’t coincide with the isoglosses that are valid for other Greek dialects[/B]. [B]Palatal sonants, their status and mutation still remain a matter of discussion[/B]. For example, the distribution of palatal and non-palatal sonants is unclear. Another problem deals with the conditions of mutation, i. e. it is often not clear if the mutation depends just on phonological environment or is also affected by certain extralinguistic factors, like the sex of the speaker.

3) [B]The verb of the Aromanian language[/B], by Antonis Bousboukis

[url]http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2017/05/the-verb-of-aromanian-language-by.html[/url]

Katsanis also finds matches of the Aromanian with the Tsakonian (Greek dialect), [B]matches that ‘are phonetic, morphological and lexical. The first (phonetic) are the most frequent[/B], while morphological and lexical ones are not that much’.

tchaiku 05-09-2017 04:39 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;168567]This is a bold claim. What is the evidence to back this up?

We would need a document, [U]from before the tenth century[/U] (preferably written by a Tsaconian author) that the name Tsakones was used by the Tsakonians themselves.

The following is from Bulletin de l'Association Guillaume Budé, 1978. Page 216:

[I][COLOR="Blue"]"les tsacones sont des soldats de second rang, des auxiliaires. Le terme apparait d'abord en Asie Mineure. A partir du VIIIe siecle, des heretiques, les Pauliciens, sont transferes en masse d'Asie Mineure sur la frontiere byzantino-bulgare y servir comme tsacones, d'ou la valeur religieuse ..."[/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR="Blue"][B]
"the Tsaconians are second-class soldiers, auxiliaries. The term first appeared in Asia Minor. From the eighth century onwards, heretics, the Paulicians, were transferred in large numbers from Asia Minor to the Byzantine-Bulgarian border and served as Tsaconians, hence the religious value ..."[/B][/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=3M5TAAAAIAAJ&q=tsacones&dq=tsacones&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y[/url][/QUOTE]

I think what the author means is that the name ''Tsakones'' was present between Tsakonians already in 10th century, therefore the name was already existent prior to that period of time.

tchaiku 05-09-2017 04:52 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;168567]
[I][COLOR="Blue"]"les tsacones sont des soldats de second rang, des auxiliaires. Le terme apparait d'abord en Asie Mineure. A partir du VIIIe siecle, des heretiques, les Pauliciens, sont transferes en masse d'Asie Mineure sur la frontiere byzantino-bulgare y servir comme tsacones, d'ou la valeur religieuse ..."[/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR="Blue"][B]
"the Tsaconians are second-class soldiers, auxiliaries. The term first appeared in Asia Minor. From the eighth century onwards, heretics, the Paulicians, were transferred in large numbers from Asia Minor to the Byzantine-Bulgarian border and served as Tsaconians, hence the religious value ..."[/B][/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=3M5TAAAAIAAJ&q=tsacones&dq=tsacones&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y[/url][/QUOTE]

According to the Byzantine historian George Pachymeres, some Tsakonians were resettled by the Byzantine emperor Michael VII Ducas in Propontis. They lived in the villages of Vatka and Havoutsi, where the Gösen River (Aesepus) empties into the sea.

[url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/06/where-are-tsakonian-villages-in-turkey.html[/url]
Havoutsi:
[url]http://travelingluck.com/Asia/Turkey/Bal%C4%B1kesir/_745717_Havut%C3%A7a.html[/url]
Vatika:
[url]http://travelingluck.com/Asia/Turkey/Bal%C4%B1kesir/_741521_Misak%C3%A7a.html[/url]


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