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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:33 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;820]No denying 500,000 Eastern Greeks and others settled in Macedonia.
in 1925 the census in Macedonia read 1.3 million Greeks.[/QUOTE]

Good, a transplanted Greekness in Macedonia which had never been present until then.

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:34 AM

I understand your point, Greeks still called themseles Ellines and their language Ellinika.

Latin speaking Greeks, not Vlachs called themselves Graekoi.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:35 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;811]Greeks in Macedonia before the arrival of refugees was 850,000.[/QUOTE]

According to who's statistics?

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:35 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;822]Good, a transplanted Greekness in Macedonia which had never been present until then.[/QUOTE]

Oh dear.

Ok 1.3 million Greeks minus 500.000 Greeks = 850.000 Greeks

There were 850.000 Greeks in Macedonia BEFORE the arrival of Eastern Greeks.

toothpaste 09-06-2008 02:36 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;819]Friedman and Danforth for starters.

Yes there was a MASSIVE Greek migration in the 1920s, see this map:
[B][URL="http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/mapofgreecerefugeesettlements-1926.jpg"]CLICK HERE[/URL][/B][/QUOTE]

yeah yeah yeah...failed to answer.:)
again,
was there a massive migration from southern to northern Greece ever mentioned?(as the SLAVIC migrations)
this would explain the existence of Greek speaking population in Macedonia.
otherwise.....the existed there before..isnt ?:)

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:36 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;824]According to who's statistics?[/QUOTE]

League of Nations in 1925.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:37 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;823]I understand your point, Greeks still called themseles Ellines and their language Ellinika.

Latin speaking Greeks, not Vlachs called themselves Graekoi.[/QUOTE]

So you are telling me that you have always reffered to yourselves as Ellines speaking Ellinika, and that Vlachs are really Latin speaking Greeks, do all Vlachs consider themselves to be this or are the ones in Greece saying this?

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:39 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;825]Oh dear.

Ok 1.3 million Greeks minus 500.000 Greeks = 850.000 Greeks

There were 850.000 Greeks in Macedonia BEFORE the arrival of Eastern Greeks.[/QUOTE]

Do you know what criteria the Hellenic state set to be counted as a Greek? Which was the only criteria you needed to fulfill?

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:39 AM

Probably not always, probably had a village identifier I don't really know. My grand mother says she is a Makedonissa and doesn't know a word of your language.

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:40 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;829]Do you know what criteria the Hellenic state set to be counted as a Greek? Which was the only criteria you needed to fulfill?[/QUOTE]

Well the criteria is set out in the Treaty of Bucharest and Treaty of Neuilly.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:43 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;826]yeah yeah yeah...failed to answer.:)
again,
was there a massive migration from southern to northern Greece ever mentioned?(as the SLAVIC migrations)
this would explain the existence of Greek speaking population in Macedonia.
otherwise.....the existed there before..isnt ?:)[/QUOTE]

Slavic migration is a THEORY...
But Greek speaking does not equate into ethnically Greek now does it?
Those Greek speakers were most likely pocket left over from the East Roman Empire, these people called themselves ROMEOI(Romans).

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:45 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;828]So you are telling me that you have always reffered to yourselves as Ellines speaking Ellinika, and that Vlachs are really Latin speaking Greeks, do all Vlachs consider themselves to be this or are the ones in Greece saying this?[/QUOTE]

The vast majority of those who live in Greece do so, but that was the case in the Ottoman era as well. Half of the folks of the Ottoman city of Manastir were described as Hellenophile Vlachs, and they considered themselves to be Greeks. They even fled to Greece after 1913.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 02:45 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;831]Well the criteria is set out in the Treaty of Bucharest and Treaty of Neuilly.[/QUOTE]

You say, the only criteria was that you were a part of the Greek Orthodox Church, that does not make you an ethnic Greek but rather just an religious one.

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:46 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;833]Slavic migration is a THEORY...
But Greek speaking does not equate into ethnically Greek now does it?
Those Greek speakers were most likely pocket left over from the East Roman Empire, these people called themselves ROMEOI(Romans).[/QUOTE]

...Which is endorsed by the majority of the scientific community, based upon the written accounts of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) authors.

But the transfer of the Thema of Macedonia from its' original location to Thrace after the Slavic invasions is NOT a theory, and needs to be explained...

Areianos 09-06-2008 02:47 AM

Religion is culture & those who wanted to be close to be Constantinople and upkeep their Romiosynoi culture stayed with Greece.

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:49 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;835]You say, the only criteria was that you were a part of the Greek Orthodox Church, that does not make you an ethnic Greek but rather just an religious one.[/QUOTE]

Back at that time, the folks divided themselves according to religion, not according to ethnicity. This is why chaos erupted after the last state that was classifyng its' citizens according to religion (the Ottoman empire) gave its' place to ethnic states.

The funny thing is that the locals had no national consciene up to that time. Do you believe it, or do you want me to quote Misirkov again (And Victor Roudometoff).

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 02:51 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;821]But Ellines was considered to be a term used for Pagans thus the Church was very much against that term.[/QUOTE]

So what? The church was not above the state.

toothpaste 09-06-2008 02:55 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;833]Slavic migration is a THEORY...
2. But Greek speaking does not equate into ethnically Greek now does it?
1. Those Greek speakers were most likely pocket left over from the East Roman Empire, these people called themselves ROMEOI(Romans).[/QUOTE]

1.So...what were they before the call themselves "ROMEOI"...uhm ..Macedonians maybe who didnt mix with slavic speakers??

2.You must decide abt the use of language as a criterion of ethnicity.
Now u write "But Greek speaking does not equate into ethnically Greek now does it?"..
so does the same exist for macedonian language too??

Daskalot 09-06-2008 03:00 AM

[QUOTE=Petros Houhoulis;839]So what? The church was not above the state.[/QUOTE]

In Greece even to this day, the Church=the State. Even more so in earlier days.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 03:02 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;843]1.So...what were they before the call themselves "ROMEOI"...uhm ..Macedonians maybe who didnt mix with slavic speakers??

2.You must decide abt the use of language as a criterion of ethnicity.
Now u write "But Greek speaking does not equate into ethnically Greek now does it?"..
so does the same exist for macedonian language too??[/QUOTE]

1. that is wishful thinking on your part.

2. yes it does, if it exist for Greek.

Areianos 09-06-2008 03:03 AM

Greek church is powerful but it is definitely not above the state.

The Institution of Greek Archaeology has more power than the church and in some cases more powerful than the state.

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 03:04 AM

Fascination with antiquity.
I have an old joke they might be interested in.

toothpaste 09-06-2008 03:06 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;847]1. that is wishful thinking on your part.

2. yes it does, if it exist for Greek.[/QUOTE]

1.And what is the "truth then ??

2.So..according to you..the macedonian speakers in Greece (most of them your beloved Grecomani") are Greeks.

Areianos 09-06-2008 03:06 AM

Absolutely. It's part of our past why shouldn't we take care of it?

Daskalot 09-06-2008 03:06 AM

[QUOTE=Petros Houhoulis;838]Back at that time, the folks divided themselves according to religion, not according to ethnicity. This is why chaos erupted after the last state that was classifyng its' citizens according to religion (the Ottoman empire) gave its' place to ethnic states.

The funny thing is that the locals had no national consciene up to that time. Do you believe it, or do you want me to quote Misirkov again (And Victor Roudometoff).[/QUOTE]

Of course there were people only relating to their village/town/religion, so was the case in the young Hellenic kingdom as well.

The national awakening process was identical all over Europe.

This does not make the Macedonians less Macedonian nor does it make the Greeks less Greek.

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 03:08 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;853]Absolutely. It's part of our past why shouldn't we take care of it?[/QUOTE]
Take care of it by all means.
But don't try to be it.

Areianos 09-06-2008 03:08 AM

Why shouldn't we take lessons from the past to progress for the future?

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 03:11 AM

Whatever floats your boat.
Lesson number one:
[I]Alexander loved the Persians so much that he adopted much of their culture.[/I]

Go for it.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 03:17 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;852]1.And what is the "truth then ??

2.So..according to you..the macedonian speakers in Greece (most of them your beloved Grecomani") are Greeks.[/QUOTE]

1. that will the future know.

2. if they choose to declare themselves as Greeks who can stop them, you, me... anyone??

Areianos 09-06-2008 03:19 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;859]Whatever floats your boat.
Lesson number one:
[I]Alexander loved the Persians so much that he adopted much of their culture.[/I]

Go for it.[/QUOTE]

Before or after destroying Persepolis?

Daskalot 09-06-2008 03:19 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;856]Why shouldn't we take lessons from the past to progress for the future?[/QUOTE]

good initiative, I respect you as a Greek, now you respect me as a Macedonian.

From that outset we can make something constructive and useful.

Areianos 09-06-2008 03:21 AM

I am a Macedonian.

Daskalot 09-06-2008 03:29 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;874]I am a Macedonian.[/QUOTE]

so you are not Greek at all?

Зошто не кажа дека си бил наш човек?

Areianos 09-06-2008 03:31 AM

I am definitely Macedonian, I am definitely Greek.

Areianos 09-06-2008 03:33 AM

My village is clearly in the borders of the initial phase of the Macedonian Kingdom.

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg[/IMG]

osiris 09-06-2008 03:56 AM

and you are also very confused about what it is to be a macedonian, its not like cofffe where you can rename it to suit your nationalist agenda.

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 03:59 AM

Does it matter?

Areianos 09-06-2008 04:01 AM

[QUOTE=osiris;889]and you are also very confused about what it is to be a macedonian, its not like cofffe where you can rename it to suit your nationalist agenda.[/QUOTE]

Why the racial slurs, do you have a problem?

Petros Houhoulis 09-06-2008 04:02 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;846]In Greece even to this day, the Church=the State. Even more so in earlier days.[/QUOTE]

Not any more. Despite the opposite view of more than a million Greeks (three millions according to the church itself) Greece has removed the reference to religion in the new ID cards since a couple of years ago.

If the 1/5 of the Greek population could not force the Greek state to keep the reference to religion in the ID cards, what makes you believe that the state is obedient to the church?

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Christodoulos_of_Athens#Involvement_in_issues[/url]

"In 2000, a major clash between church and state erupted when the then Greek socialist government sought to follow a decision of the Greek Data Protection Authority, by removing the "Religion" field from the national ID cards carried by Greek citizens. Christodoulos opposed the decision, complaining that socialist prime minister Costas Simitis did not consult with the Greek Church on the matter and claiming that it was part of a wider plan to marginalise the Church from Greek public life; he also stated that the decision was "put forward by neo-intellectuals who want to attack us like rabid dogs and tear at our flesh".[7] The archbishop organised two demonstrations in Athens and Thessaloniki, alongside a majority of bishops of the Church of Greece, supporting the inclusion of religious data on a voluntary basis, and asked for a referendum on the matter. For this purpose he was greatly supported as more than three million Greek citizens signed and asked for a referendum. In 2001, Christodoulos prompted international criticism after claiming that the ID decision had been instigated by Jews.[8] The Central Board of the Jewish Community in Greece subsequently sent him a letter on 20 March 2001, asking him to clarify the matter and expressing their opposition to the mandatory writing of religious status in identity cards.[9] The Archbishop replied in a letter that his source was the official web site of the USA Jewish Community where it was stated that the US Jewish Community had asked the Greek Government to remove religious status from Greek identity cards. He also noted that in Israel, the writing of religious status in identity cards is mandatory. [10] The official position of the Greek Church became that the writing of religious status on identity cards should be optional. However, the Greek Government proceeded to remove the writing of religious status completely from new identity cards."

Risto the Great 09-06-2008 04:03 AM

[QUOTE=Areianos;883]I am definitely Macedonian, I am definitely Greek.[/QUOTE]
Utterly senseless.


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