Macedonian Knights of Death

[Liberator of Makedonija]

These "Knights of Death" sound like a cover term used for false flag attacks to me

[julie]

SoM is correct, the Ottomans had cannons blessed by their Greek mates in slaughtering defenceless Macedonian children, women and young men in villages.
Macedonians experienced terror on a daily basis under the ottoman empire Onur, its not about tit for tat, any form of violence is despicable, however you can't pinpoint one act of bloodshed by the Macedonians and cry fowl my friend.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Retaliation? I don't think that 200 people in mosque was responsible for something against Macedonians. Besides that, nothing can be an excuse for bombing 200 innocent people. If thats what happened then this is simply terror, nothing else. While i tell you that if Ottoman government did the same, then it was terror too but it`s clear that you guys are hesitant to say that if it`s done by your people.

I am not hesitant about it. This was carried out by Macedonians. It is not about seeking credit.

Nevertheless, I must say that your analogy is clearly wrong! If we accept your idea, then Al-Qaida attacks, Palestine suicide bombs are patriotism too.

If anything is 'wrong', it is the disproportionate amount of terror the Macedonians received from the Ottomans. Onur, don't try and paint a rosy picture of what the Ottomans did in Macedonia over a century ago, and don't compare a few bombing to the mass murder, rapes, pillaging, etc that Macedonians endured from the Ottomans.

I will ask you again - How many Christian churches were burned by Ottoman Muslims in Macedonia, before these Macedonians decided to give some back?

[Onur]

about this specific incident - i have to get some more info before i continue to write about it.

it is hard to believe, both things, bombing Solunīs street and killing 2 000 people on it, and bombing a Mosque...

most of the Mosques were build on Destroed Churches, or simply beside the Church was build the minaret, and the Church was turned into Mosque. So to repeat myself, it is hard to believe such thing, i need more info...

Just leave it mate. It`s no use anymore. Salonika is in Greece now and neither Macedonians nor Turks lives in it anymore. So all that was for nothing in the end.

Just like i said above, i wish someone bold enough to abolish the empire would come up earlier than 1920, so we wouldn't live up to that point.

I also agree Bratot above.

[Serdarot]

I am honest enough to declare what is terror and what is not, no matter who did it. If Ottoman authorities did similar stuff, yes that was terror too but i don't know if you realize that you are asking from me to declare Ottoman government`s actions as terrorism while you strictly deny to do same for your own??? You ask me to say what you don't.

i donīt ask you to admit or declare something, m8

i simply pointed that "tnx to the cruelty of the authorities, the ppl were driven to take extreme measures"

as much i know, Macedonian fighters never attacked some Muslim or non-Macedonian villages, killing innocent/unarmed people (specialy woman and children)

and iīve read better the text on the picture earlier (i missed the mosque part in the first read...). it is wrong to target civilians in a religious object, no excuses about that... (no metter how oft the Turks or someone else burned our Churches / people before that)

about this specific incident - i have to get some more info before i continue to write about it.

it is hard to believe, both things, bombing Solunīs street and killing 2 000 people on it, and bombing a Mosque...

most of the Mosques were build on Destroed Churches, or simply beside the Church was build the minaret, and the Church was turned into Mosque. So to repeat myself, it is hard to believe such thing, i need more info...

[Bratot]

Althought there is no universal deffinition of a "terrorism", a group of people can have many different reasons or motives for their acts and while for someone they are freedom fighters for others they are terrorists.

"one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"

Nowadays this term has gained mostly negative conotation, but we shouldn't look at the events from our past through the deffinitions given by FBI or CNN.

We don't know who exactly was in the mosque that time, we only rely on these media reports, which could also distort the truth.

It is very usual that one who has risked or sacrificed his life for our Macedonian movement is our hero and will be noted for his courage.
As it is normal the same person to be perceived as a terrorist by the Ottoman authorities for promoting the interests of an ethnic or religious group that is being oppressed by those authorities.

Using disproportional violence by such revolutionery groups is because the enemy armies are too strong, with the hope that will cause a pressure on the government to change their policy, to atract international attention etc. etc.

It is all a matter of means and capacity not of ideology.

[Onur]

i can understand it is not so easy to realise and to admit that your own nation commited crimes, but hey, if the Turks werenīt so cruel, maybe EU would be begging US to join the Ottoman Empire in the last 20 years

i hope you get the point

I am honest enough to declare what is terror and what is not, no matter who did it. If Ottoman authorities did similar stuff, yes that was terror too but i don't know if you realize that you are asking from me to declare Ottoman government`s actions as terrorism while you strictly deny to do same for your own??? You ask me to say what you don't.

A product of their time, but it sounds like retaliation to me. How many Christian churches were burned by Ottoman Muslims in Macedonia, before these Macedonians decided to give some back? Who is the real terrorist here, Onur - Macedonians or Ottomans?

Retaliation? I don't think that 200 people in mosque was responsible for something against Macedonians. Besides that, nothing can be an excuse for bombing 200 innocent people. If thats what happened then this is simply terror, nothing else. While i tell you that if Ottoman government did the same, then it was terror too but it`s clear that you guys are hesitant to say that if it`s done by your people.

Well, imho, it was probably done by Sofia or Athens but you wanna get the credit for the bombing of 200 people exclusively for Macedonia anyway. Not that i am hesitant to blame Macedonians for that but i still think that it was Athens or Sofia`s business cuz terror would help their aim in those times. Also, quite possibly that half of the killings and massacres blamed on to the Turks was actually done by Athens, Sofia and Belgrade. Like Germanos Karavangelis said that he hired dozens of assassins to kill all the non-Greek speaking clergy in Macedonia.


Nevertheless, I must say that your analogy is clearly wrong! If we accept your idea, then Al-Qaida attacks, Palestine suicide bombs are patriotism too.


Btw, i don't have any intention to argue about an incident of 100 years ago. What i am talking about is your hesitation to differentiate terrorism with patriotism. Terror is still not a good thing if it`s your own. Terror is terror no matter who does.

[Serdarot]

Is there are a specific clause in their charter that confirms this? I have heard stories about Jordan Piperkata carrying out such acts in response to atrocities committed on the Macedonians.

the number of the Ottoman-Build Mosques that are still in function is speaking for itself.

And dont forget we had 2 Balkan and 2 World wars in between

For example, Bitola was the most damaged / destroed city in the WW1, not on Macedonian Soil, but worldwide...

but good thing to research, if there was some official document(s) to confirm that

[George S.]

very interesting information tm.

[Daskalot]

What an interesting read TM, a truely unique find.

[Louis Riel]

A product of their time, but it sounds like retaliation to me. How many Christian churches were burned by Ottoman Muslims in Macedonia, before these Macedonians decided to give some back? Who is the real terrorist here, Onur - Macedonians or Ottomans?

Is there are a specific clause in their charter that confirms this? I have heard stories about Jordan Piperkata carrying out such acts in response to atrocities committed on the Macedonians.

I thought it had something to do with Goce Delcevs death but then saw the date that it happened....2 days before he was killed.

[makedonche]

Mate, do you see anything patriotic in this? This is simply terror. Maybe thats why Bulgarians left all the "credit" of this to the Macedonians after sending someone from Sofia to blow up 200 people? Who knows! Armenians was famous with their bombings in Salonika in those times. They were mainly targeting Jews and muslims in there. Maybe they were behind this.

Onur
By "Ultimate Patriot" I was referring to his willingness to pay with his life for his beliefs/actions. I acknowledge your statement that it is "simply terror", I don't dispute that nor do I argue in it's favour.
It certainly opens the door for discussions at many levels - terrorism being one part- simultaneously - what on earth possesed this person to commit such an extreme act? " possibly this..."The Macedonians, driven to a frenzy of desperation by the cruelty of the Turks..."


Secondly the "Bulgarians" comment was purely an example of how Bulgarians like to claim everything Macedonian as theirs except anything that portrays them in a bad light!

[TrueMacedonian]

Onur, you have a point. Terorism was not unknown to Macedonians, but I have never heard of these "knights of death", and Macedonians were not seeking to murder, on the contrary. They were taking a lot of precausions to avoid civilian victims. For example, in the "Gemidzii" attack in approximately the same time in Solun, they informed the pasangers of the boat Guadalkivir ahead of time, and it was evacuated in time. Plus attacking Mosques was highly against the rules of VMRO. And even prior to that, attacking moslems, their property and their sacred places was considered a crime punisheable by death according to the Constitution of the Kresna Uprising in 1878.

The Supreme committee in Sofia, on the other hand, was sending all kinds of troublemakers to instigate violence in Macedonia, and then to blame it on Macedonians.

I can't remember what book I read it in but it stated that Macedonia in the beginning of the 20th century was becoming a center for secret societies after the Ilinden Uprising. Here's another group that may be affiliated with the Macedonian Knights of Death or they may be the same people with different names for their group: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2697

(I think that they may be the same group with different names)

[Soldier of Macedon]

Mate, do you see anything patriotic in this? This is simply terror.

A product of their time, but it sounds like retaliation to me. How many Christian churches were burned by Ottoman Muslims in Macedonia, before these Macedonians decided to give some back? Who is the real terrorist here, Onur - Macedonians or Ottomans?

Plus attacking Mosques was highly against the rules of VMRO.

Is there are a specific clause in their charter that confirms this? I have heard stories about Jordan Piperkata carrying out such acts in response to atrocities committed on the Macedonians.

[Serdarot]

we have to learn to read better, mate

you ask makedonche if he sees something patriotic in terrorist actions...

now read few times this:

"The Macedonians, driven to a frenzy of desperation by the cruelty of the Turks..."

they were not terrorist, they were simply people who could not stand and watch anylonger, how their woman and children are being killed

and as someone mentioned, it was not aloud to target peacefull Muslim or non-Macedonian population, nor civilians. Millitary and State buildings / institutions only - is what Macedonians attacked. (maybe there were exceptions, but if yes, than very few)

we had multi-ethnic and multi-religious Government in our "Krusevska Republika", 1/3 were Muslims (albanians i guess)

i can understand it is not so easy to realise and to admit that your own nation commited crimes, but hey, if the Turks werenīt so cruel, maybe EU would be begging US to join the Ottoman Empire in the last 20 years

i hope you get the point