Can someone please answer the question?

[Svoliani]

@ El Bre

How nice of you to concentrate on Grevena only where i did state that there were Vlach villages. Next time you show a quote please show me a link or the author who wrote it. Kupatshari (kutzovlachs) can be found in villages like Dotskiko and Perivoli. If we look at villages like Megaron, Zakas, Spylion, Kalyraxi these people were not Vlachs, we know many people from these villages. Considering in your statistics it states 15,000 Greeks 12,500 Vlachs and 10,000 Turks , you just prove what i am saying that Greeks composed the largest numbers. The thing i enjoy seeing is that not ONE ethnic Macedonian in Grevena but hey we all know that Ethnic Macedonians come from one place and one place only and that is around Florina.
But when you do have time , please dissect the other areas like Katerini, Halkidiki and Serres, tell me what Hellenized people you can find there.

Since you know where my alias is, maybe u can tell us all what a Svolia means ? and then tell me what a Ziouban is also, you might know this place as well .

[Soldier of Macedon]

Its ok, you made may errors too, so did your parents.

If Pappas is well documented perhaps some other Greek here who is willing to respect my people can explain it to us.

Bye-bye.

[Truth Bearer]

Emmanuil Pappas was a revolutionary who fought the Ottomans that's pretty well documented SoM.On the other hand Mr Petros and you in yr rush made an error the war against Italy was 28 October 1940.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Contrary to your opinion, the memory of the Greek uprisings in Macedonia has lived in the memory of the Greek people. Otherwise, this would not have happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanouil_Pappas

"Emmanouil Pappas (Greek: Εμμανουήλ Παππάς) is a municipality in the Serres Prefecture, Greece. Population 11,789 (2001). The seat of the municipality is in Chryso. The municipality takes its name after a local historical figure who played an important part as a leader in the war of the Greek revolution against Ottoman rule. Sadly, he met his demise before freedom was attained. Emmanouel Pappas was born in the village that was previously called 'Dovista', probably of Slavic origin, though historians are uncertain of the exact root of that word. One conjecture involves the mispronunciation of the Latin 'Dove est', meaning 'where is it?', because, apparently, the village was undetectable from a distance."

Of course we had many uprisings and wars over the centuries and only two of them are celebrated in all of Greece: The war of 1821 against the Ottoman empire and the war of 1941 with Fascist Italy.

Garbage. Although you are banned, I will respond to your post here, because contrary to your delusional lies, you are wrong.

Where is the memory of this proclamation? Nowhere.

Emmanuel Pappas, born in a region with a Slavic placename (not probably, but surely), what other information exists about him apart from this Wikipedia article that you all drool over?

Of course Greece celebrates many uprising, but one wonders who and how many in these uprising identified as "Hellenes"?

The war in 1821 was won by foreigners, not "Hellenes".

The war in 1941 was won by locals from Macedonia, those locals were largely Macedonians, not "Hellenes".

[Truth Bearer]

So you think that the peasant class which was the majority of the people could afford to go to school Goce??Do not compare the minority merchant classes that lived in the bigger towns that had private schools.There was no system no st ate sponsored education that forced the masses into education Goce.The Sultan didn't giove 2 hoots about the populace he just left it to the spiritual leaders of each community.

[goce]

Back then when there's no schooling notr computers when the only language to speak was from yr mother's bossom.What's yr mother tongue Slovak??

Sorry for bringing back old post from this topic (pg#3), but your more like the idiot bearer.

There has always been schooling, not perhaps in the way we currently do things in a formal setting, but there was always schooling from antiquity to now.

The first university in the Balkans was actually in Thessalonica in the 1500's.

As well, you'd be suprised how well educated the people of the past were. They studied other languages early an often, including Greek and Latin.

[El Bre]

@Svoliani

I don't have a lot of time to devote to your "Greek speaking" crock o' shit, but lets look at the Grevena area as an example.

A closer look at the the ethinc composition of the Grevena area reveals that the low foothills of the Pindos, directly opposite the Town of Grevena, were inhabited by the Greek speaking Kupatshari, who were not of Greek but Vlach origin. The Greek speaking Kupatshari, who are referred to as "Greeks" were not hellenized until the early 1800's.

Further north of the Kupatshari lived 12,000 Vlacho-Turkish Valahades, who spoke Greek until 1924 when they left for Turkey. They were islamized Vlachs, who had previously, together with the Kupashari, Embraced Greek culture by way of religion. Religion played a major role in the process of Hellinisation, for church services were always conducted in Greek. The Patriarch of Constantinople forbade the use of Vlach in Religious services.

Moving towards the eastern part of the Grevena area, we meet the Vlachs of Vlahoklissoura group, who lived in Vlahoklissaoura, Vlatsi, Sissani and Siatitsa. These Vlachs abandoned the nomadic life very early on and embraced Greek culture to the point where many modern natives Siatitsa have no idea of their Vlach origins.

The rest of the inhbitants of the Kaza, or district of Grevena were "Greeks". In 1895, it had about 37,500 inhabitants, of whom 12,500 were Vlachs, 10;000 Turks, and 15,000 Greeks. As far as the Greeks of Grevena are concerned, most of the them were Kupatshari or Hassiots. The ethnic origin of the Kupatshari is well known; that of the Hassiots, however, has not been scientifically established. The Hassiots worked as bondsman on Turkish estates, and their cultural level was particularly low. Weigand mantians that the Hassiots were of Vlach origin.

As for the Grevena Turks, they included, apart from the Valahades, some of the Turkish inhabitants of the the Town of Grevena, who had come from lala in the Pelopenese. The Laliots had setteled in the area in 1837. They were not in fact Turks, but Albanians, led by Ali Farmaki.

Judging by your alias, I assume you are from Kozani. What do we know about Kozani?

In the nineteenth century, the Kozani area was inhabited exclusively by Turks from Konya, who returned to Turkey. The sole exception was the town of Kozani itself, where the Greek speaking inhabitants were almost exclusively Hellanised Vlachs.

Now, if I had either the time or the inclination, I could deconstruct your Hellenic fantasy regarding most of the other areas you mention. That being said, I do not deny, as others have benevolently stated, pockets of Greeks (whatever that means) in Macedonia.

[Daskalot]

Daskalot, just don't have second thoughts, please.

Thank you for your input Slovak.

[Delodephius]

Daskalot, just don't have second thoughts, please.

[Daskalot]

Contrary to your opinion, the memory of the Greek uprisings in Macedonia has lived in the memory of the Greek people. Otherwise, this would not have happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanouil_Pappas

"Emmanouil Pappas (Greek: Εμμανουήλ Παππάς) is a municipality in the Serres Prefecture, Greece. Population 11,789 (2001). The seat of the municipality is in Chryso. The municipality takes its name after a local historical figure who played an important part as a leader in the war of the Greek revolution against Ottoman rule. Sadly, he met his demise before freedom was attained. Emmanouel Pappas was born in the village that was previously called 'Dovista', probably of Slavic origin, though historians are uncertain of the exact root of that word. One conjecture involves the mispronunciation of the Latin 'Dove est', meaning 'where is it?', because, apparently, the village was undetectable from a distance."

Of course we had many uprisings and wars over the centuries and only two of them are celebrated in all of Greece: The war of 1821 against the Ottoman empire and the war of 1941 with Fascist Italy.

Petros, I see that you have a hard time reading and understanding the warning I gave you a few posts ago.
You do it again, thus you will be Banned, thank you for gracing us with your short lived presence on our forum.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Regarding this so-called 'proclamation' posted at the beginning of this thread, with its citation in a book that has a title which includes “Greece-Macedonia 4000 years”, I think the notion of it being dubious is well founded. However, even if it were authentic, during this period Macedonia was in constant turmoil and it remained so until the early 1880’s, I am sure there were a few groups trying to make efforts at liberation, even half-ass one’s like that.

Unlike the Kresna Uprising of the Macedonians during the same period, this so-called effort doesn’t live in the memory of the Greek people, does it? For, but 25 years later, these so-called ‘Greeks’ were nowhere to be seen, and the ‘great’ fighters of the Greek efforts to absorb Macedonia, these so-called “Macedonian Fighters”, were nearly all to a tee from outside of Macedonia.

Contrary to your opinion, the memory of the Greek uprisings in Macedonia has lived in the memory of the Greek people. Otherwise, this would not have happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanouil_Pappas

"Emmanouil Pappas (Greek: Εμμανουήλ Παππάς) is a municipality in the Serres Prefecture, Greece. Population 11,789 (2001). The seat of the municipality is in Chryso. The municipality takes its name after a local historical figure who played an important part as a leader in the war of the Greek revolution against Ottoman rule. Sadly, he met his demise before freedom was attained. Emmanouel Pappas was born in the village that was previously called 'Dovista', probably of Slavic origin, though historians are uncertain of the exact root of that word. One conjecture involves the mispronunciation of the Latin 'Dove est', meaning 'where is it?', because, apparently, the village was undetectable from a distance."

Of course we had many uprisings and wars over the centuries and only two of them are celebrated in all of Greece: The war of 1821 against the Ottoman empire and the war of 1941 with Fascist Italy.

[Daskalot]

This was not a Greek plot. Greece sent off 500.000 people but receivedd 1.200.000 people. It wasn't a good deal for Greece.

It was the perfect deal to colonize Macedonia and make it into the Hellenistic madhouse it is today, thank the Refugees from Asia minor for that. Wake up Petros, you are a bright and clever man, use your head.

[Petros Houhoulis]

By the way, Coastal Christians from Asia were one part of a much larger contingent of Christians in Asia who were shipped off to Europe.

What was the exact figure, 1.700.000 Christians from Asia? How many were coastal?

The largest compact Turkish speaking population that left for Greece were less than 100,000. (see about the Karamanlides in previous posts) Do the maths yourself...

BTW. 1,200,000 were received by Greece. More than 500,000 perished in their way out. Almost none of those perished was speaking Turkish (The Karamanlides left peacefully after 1924)

[Daskalot]

No, but the opposite also holds true. Being Greek does not mean that you speak Greek.

In any case, the vast majority of the Greek speaking populations of Asia Minor had a Greek national conscience. (the terms Turkey and Anatolia were used only after 1923 by the Turks themselves)

Please explain how they can have a Greek national conscious when they WERE not living in the Greek state and NEVER HAD UP UNTIL THE 1920S.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Perhaps they spoke Greek. I don't really know because unlike our Macedonian friends I have never been drawn by that subject since I only have a very slim interest in Greek history. However, the issue of them being populated in Macedonia at the expense of native Macedonians I do find more interesting.

This was not a Greek plot. Greece sent off 500.000 people but receivedd 1.200.000 people. It wasn't a good deal for Greece.