Question to the Greeks

[DraganOfStip]

Greek rice pudding? Wow! I had to look it up to see what you mean exactly. This one again is called "rizogalo" (the g is a greek gamma sound) in greece. It means rice and milk... .

We served a rice puding for the guests at the cruise ship,but no one called it Greek.
That version was in fact a vanilla puding with rice and raisins in it,and it was just called rice puding.
On the other hand you have the Macedonian Sutliyash,which consists of only milk,rice and sugar (and vanilla for aroma).
Some people like to top it with some cinnamon or chocolate chip,but I like it plain.

[Philosopher]

I was hoping you wouldn't associate food with the name dispute... but you did.

No, I did not associate it with the name dispute. And that is not my intention at all.

If Greece capitalised those as well then how come they are not under protection too? I mean that would be dead easy to do since they are known as... greek in the rest of the world.

If you go to the streets of greece and ask people what they think the origin of baklava is, they'll tell you it's turkish. The same with coffee. So this theory of capitalisation is not correct.

In the West, many foods which are not Greek are considered Greek. Greeks in the West know this or they should know better. But the Greeks in the West play along with it. It is a marketing ploy. No different than "Greek yogurt" or Greek pudding.

I do not like lumping people. So I am not referring to all Greeks. The Greeks in Greece do not do this. Like I wrote earlier, much of this is a Western construct. And the Greeks in the West play along. It is a very successful marketing ploy.

Obviously ethnic Greeks living in Greece do not use phrases such as "Greek rice pudding" or "Greek salad". It is true they use "Greek coffee", but they do so for political reasons out of spite against the Turks. The Greek Cypriots do the same.

[spitfire]

Your answers have confirmed or reaffirmed the common perception Macedonians have about Greece and the West.

The West has idolized ancient Greece and the ancient Greeks for centuries. So it is no wonder that traditional Balkan foods are defined as Greek. Let me give you example. On one occasion I brought Baklava to a pre-winter break party at work. The Baklava was purchased at a Greek boutique, owned by Greeks. My mother has been buying traditional Balkan foods from there for decades (feta, olive oil, olives, Baklava, et al). Anyway, I brought Baklava and one of the employee's said "Oh, that's Greek". I shot back with "No, it is Turkish, but it is bought at a Greek store". In his mind, Baklava is Greek.

This is the issue. Everyone associates these foods with Greece. While I still think part of the problem is that Greeks have claimed many foods, I think a far larger problem is that Westerners associate all these foods as Greek. And Greece has capitalized on this. What is Greek rice pudding? It is an artificial Western construct.. What is a Greek salad? It is an artificial Western construct.

I suspect this is rooted in a deep historic and ethnic bias against Turks/Muslims and so-called Slavs by the West. It is not a self-evident bias. It is ingrained in us in the West from birth.

So yes, you are spot on in your comments.

I was hoping you wouldn't associate food with the name dispute... but you did. Hopefuly you understand that food is an everyday thing that we associate very easily with ourselves.

If Greece capitalised those as well then how come they are not under protection too? I mean that would be dead easy to do since they are known as... greek in the rest of the world.

If you go to the streets of greece and ask people what they think the origin of baklava is, they'll tell you it's turkish. The same with coffee. So this theory of capitalisation is not correct.

[Philosopher]

1. Let's put it this way. If I order mousaka in a greek restaurant and it has no potatoes but just eggplant, then I would tell the chef that something is missing. Or never order mousaka again in that restaurant.

2. This is probably because of tourists. I mean if they ate the salad but don't remember the name "horiatiki" it is most probable that they call it Greek. I see those variants called greek salad in wiki and I find no connection to "horiatiki" salad. So I guess that's how it is. A name that wasn't supposed to be greek, becoming greek after the tourists.
Did most countries in the Balkans have tourists while they were under the communist system?

3. Greek rice pudding? Wow! I had to look it up to see what you mean exactly. This one again is called "rizogalo" (the g is a greek gamma sound) in greece. It means rice and milk... .

Your answers have confirmed or reaffirmed the common perception Macedonians have about Greece and the West.

The West has idolized ancient Greece and the ancient Greeks for centuries. So it is no wonder that traditional Balkan foods are defined as Greek. Let me give you example. On one occasion I brought Baklava to a pre-winter break party at work. The Baklava was purchased at a Greek boutique, owned by Greeks. My mother has been buying traditional Balkan foods from there for decades (feta, olive oil, olives, Baklava, et al). Anyway, I brought Baklava and one of the employee's said "Oh, that's Greek". I shot back with "No, it is Turkish, but it is bought at a Greek store". In his mind, Baklava is Greek.

This is the issue. Everyone associates these foods with Greece. While I still think part of the problem is that Greeks have claimed many foods, I think a far larger problem is that Westerners associate all these foods as Greek. And Greece has capitalized on this. What is Greek rice pudding? It is an artificial Western construct.. What is a Greek salad? It is an artificial Western construct.

I suspect this is rooted in a deep historic and ethnic bias against Turks/Muslims and so-called Slavs by the West. It is not a self-evident bias. It is ingrained in us in the West from birth.

So yes, you are spot on in your comments.

[spitfire]

A few things.

1. Why is it every chef on television, including Greek chefs, and recipes online from Greeks all state that the traditional preparation of Mousaka is with eggplant, not potatoes? Is this true? Is this the traditional preparation of Mousaka?

2. Yes, the Greek salad is called everywhere except in Greece. But why is it known as a Greek salad outside of Greece? What makes it Greek? Surely the argument cannot be made that this salad is exclusively Greek? Or the ingredients are only available in Greece? And how did it also become a Bulgarian salad?

3. And what about Greek rice pudding? Is this known as Greek rice pudding in Greece? If not, why is it known as Greek rice pudding in the West? What makes it Greek? A very similar dish exists in Macedonia and the rest of the Balkans.

1. Let's put it this way. If I order mousaka in a greek restaurant and it has no potatoes but just eggplant, then I would tell the chef that something is missing. Or never order mousaka again in that restaurant.

2. This is probably because of tourists. I mean if they ate the salad but don't remember the name "horiatiki" it is most probable that they call it Greek. I see those variants called greek salad in wiki and I find no connection to "horiatiki" salad. So I guess that's how it is. A name that wasn't supposed to be greek, becoming greek after the tourists.
Did most countries in the Balkans have tourists while they were under the communist system?

3. Greek rice pudding? Wow! I had to look it up to see what you mean exactly. This one again is called "rizogalo" (the g is a greek gamma sound) in greece. It means rice and milk... .

[Philosopher]

Feta cheese again eh?

Well first of all, greek salad is called everywhere else except Greece. In Greece, the greek salad is called "horiatiki salata" which means a salad from the village.
Tomato, cucumber, olives, a few green peppers (optional yet loveable) olive oil, feta cheese and oregano. That's what's made with.

Now that I mentioned the peculiarity in the name, I think of another example. Βudapest salad is a salad that the Hungarians think as a French salad, and Russian salad is a salad that its proper name is olivie salad. But those salads in greece have the name Budapest and Russian.
I don't know why.

A few things.

1. Why is it every chef on television, including Greek chefs, and recipes online from Greeks all state that the traditional preparation of Mousaka is with eggplant, not potatoes? Is this true? Is this the traditional preparation of Mousaka?

2. Yes, the Greek salad is called everywhere except in Greece. But why is it known as a Greek salad outside of Greece? What makes it Greek? Surely the argument cannot be made that this salad is exclusively Greek? Or the ingredients are only available in Greece? And how did it also become a Bulgarian salad?

3. And what about Greek rice pudding? Is this known as Greek rice pudding in Greece? If not, why is it known as Greek rice pudding in the West? What makes it Greek? A very similar dish exists in Macedonia and the rest of the Balkans.

[spitfire]

Feta cheese again eh?

Well first of all, greek salad is called everywhere else except Greece. In Greece, the greek salad is called "horiatiki salata" which means a salad from the village.
Tomato, cucumber, olives, a few green peppers (optional yet loveable) olive oil, feta cheese and oregano. That's what's made with.

Now that I mentioned the peculiarity in the name, I think of another example. Βudapest salad is a salad that the Hungarians think as a French salad, and Russian salad is a salad that its proper name is olivie salad. But those salads in greece have the name Budapest and Russian.
I don't know why.

[Philosopher]

Alright, back to recipes and food now... .

Yes, let us continue.

There is another common food in the Balkans and it is also known under various names. I am referring to the Greek salad, which is very similar to the Macedonian Shopska salad, which Wikipedia claims is a "Bulgarian salad".

Greek salad is made with pieces of tomatoes, sliced cucumbers, onion, feta cheese, and olives (usually Kalamata olives), typically seasoned with salt and oregano, and dressed with olive oil.

Shopska salad is a little different, as individual ingredients may vary, but not by much.

Shopska salad, also known as Bulgarian salad[1] (Bulgarian, Macedonian, and Serbian: Шопска салата; Bosnian and Croatian: Šopska salata; Romanian: Salata bulgărească; Czech: Šopsk� sal�t; Albanian: Salat Shope; Hungarian: Sopszka sal�ta), is a traditional Bulgarian cold salad popular throughout the Balkans and Central Europe.[2][3] It is made from tomatoes, cucumbers, onion/scallions, raw or roasted peppers, sirene (white brine cheese), and parsley.[4][5]

The vegetables are usually diced and salted, followed by a light dressing of sunflower oil or olive oil, which are occasionally complemented by vinegar. The addition of vinegar contributes, however, to the sour flavour that the tomatoes impart. In restaurants, the dressings are provided separately. Lastly, the vegetables are covered in a thick layer of grated or diced sirene cheese. This salad is often consumed as an appetiser with rakia.

The Shopska salad is also made with olives, so I'm not sure why this ingredient is left out. And I personally have not seen raw or roasted peppers in this salad. But again, individual ingredients may vary.

Note Wikipedia uses "sirene" instead of feta to describe the white cheese.

The Macedonian Shopska salad is nearly identical to the Greek salad, and yet it is known as Greek salad and Bulgarian salad.

I would imagine this Wikipedia entry is colored with political undertones. Wikipedia is anti-Macedonia, and denies the Macedonian people and its heritage, so it is no wonder this salad is called a Bulgarian salad. There is no way this is a Bulgarian salad.

Another interesting point here is that Greek salad is popular in the West, and retains its ethnic heritage "Greek", but the Shopska salad is popular in the Balkans.

So how Greek is this salad? And how Bulgarian is it?

[spitfire]

As I have said earler, I'm only trying to be in the shoes of the "other side" just to see how it feels.
I saw a movie posted somewhere in the forum, where macedonians were not allowed to visit the graves of their ancestors located in Greece.
Now, there is a reason why I picked this particular song. I descent from the very south of Epirus. Imagine the Albanians making their idea of a big Albania true, for some reason. That would mean also for me not being able to visit the graves of my ancestors.
Beyond any political meaning, this is outrageous. You don't just stop people from excersing their fundamental obligations, based on the idea of political exploitation.

Alright, back to recipes and food now... .

[Philosopher]

All that food and no music? Something is missing.

Here's something that you might know about. There is an albanian song, called "Delvina me Camerine". It describes the albanians fighting against the turks.
We greeks took it and changed the lyrics, in a way it means that Delvina and Camerina, and some places more in Albania will be ours.
This is not "stealing" exactly. This is "teasing". However it is danced by mostly right-wing greeks in Epirus.

Here's the Albanian version (just take it to 1:40)

Shaban Zeneli - Delvina me Camerine (Official) - YouTube

And here's the Greek version

Δ�*λβινο και Τσαμουριά - YouTube

You're an honest Greek Spitfire.

[spitfire]

All that food and no music? Something is missing.

Here's something that you might know about. There is an albanian song, called "Delvina me Camerine". It describes the albanians fighting against the turks.
We greeks took it and changed the lyrics, in a way it means that Delvina and Camerina, and some places more in Albania will be ours.
This is not "stealing" exactly. This is "teasing". However it is danced by mostly right-wing greeks in Epirus.

Here's the Albanian version (just take it to 1:40)

Shaban Zeneli - Delvina me Camerine (Official) - YouTube

And here's the Greek version

Δ�*λβινο και Τσαμουριά - YouTube

[spitfire]

Do you recall the old man from the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? Do you recall when he said "pick a word, any word, and I will show you it is of Greek origin", or something to that effect.

I would have loved to ask him about Moussaka, Baklava, Feta, Tolumbi (Tolumba), and now frappe.

Yes I do remember him but this was intenional to get a good laugh. I remember him explaining the word winter in greek

The inventor (by accident) was working for Nestle at the time, so this "luck" wouldn't go unexploited on behalf of the company. Thus they marketed the coffee as Frappe.

In fact, Thessaloniki is known also as Frappe land. It's sort of a trademark to them.

[Philosopher]

What about Frappe coffee? This one's invented by accident in Thessaloniki in 1957.

Do you recall the old man from the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? Do you recall when he said "pick a word, any word, and I will show you it is of Greek origin", or something to that effect.

I would have loved to ask him about Moussaka, Baklava, Feta, Tolumbi (Tolumba), and now frappe.

The word frapp� is French and comes from the verb frapper which means to 'hit'; in this context, however, in French, when describing a drink, the word frapp� means chilled, as with ice cubes in a shaker.

[spitfire]

What about Frappe coffee? This one's invented by accident in Thessaloniki in 1957.

[Philosopher]

Yes, I remember that when I was in Cyprus. But this type of coffee which is common for Greeks, Cypriots and Turks actually comes from the arabs.

It is very common in Macedonia too. There it is generally called Turkish coffee. But maybe we should start calling it "Macedonian coffee" and maybe, just maybe, we can it get trademarked with the EU that way we can have exclusive rights to that name in Europe. Macedonia needs a boost in commerce.

Turkish Coffee is an Intangible Cultural Heritage of Turks confirmed by UNESCO.