How do Macedonians across the Macedonian Region perceive the other?

[Yunanistan]

So I had a beer with my friend and his wife. This is not all we talk about but it did come up. There is further explanation to this identification of Macedonians from RoM as "SKI".

It has nothing to do with the last name. It seems to be a differentiation that is manifesting itself amongst the youth. Meaning if you're over 30 you don't get it. These youth seem to think along the same lines of most on this forum's members. That being Alexander's history and all the perception of Greeks as having nothing to do with Macedonia, but the difference is that they include in that camp the people from RoM as "fake Macedonians".

This is not what I originally understood. I thought it was a regional difference within Macedonian ethnicity, but I was wrong, it is a pecking order of legitimacy. Meaning that the youth are focusing the "true Macedonians" in the Florina region and anyone outside this small area is a pretender.

I was trying to understand the differing regions as exists in Greece with the Islanders, and the differences they have amongst themselves, the differences between Macedonia Gr. and Peloponnese, Thessaly and Epiros. Each has its regional accents, dress and foods. I was hoping you guys would help in my legitimate wish to understand those differences of your nation, not agree with you, just understand. I was not going to challenge anything you would offer up.

But I got nothing except a defensiveness that everyone is Macedonian and nothing but Macedonian. In my mind's eye this is a weakness of some kind. Anyways I guess this topic is dead. I can't continue to fight through all this for a simple conversation. If you doubt what I say, reread your responses to my posts and try to find one offering of something that would deepen my understanding.

[Soldier of Macedon]

At this point I would like to use the term "People" interchangeably with "Macedonians". When I say "People" I will always mean "Macedonians". Not Greeks, nor Bulgarians, nor Albanians, Roma, Turks, Vlah or any other ethnicity. This thread is strictly about the Macedonian Ethnicity.

Your struggle to refer to my community as they refer to themselves is your problem. That we are Macedonians is a matter of fact, not opinion. And if you have a shred of decency and respect you will call us Macedonians, or you will be gone from here. It's as simple as that. Because I would not waste a second of my life dealing with you in person if you refused to show the same courtesy I am prepared to show you by calling you by your ethno-national name.

You are all Macedonians, but amongst yourselves how do you see the others?

We see each other as Macedonians from different regions of Macedonia. Not unlike Italians, Spaniards, Turks and others who also have these regional differences among their respective nations.

We talked about the term "SKI" and my friend, his wife, my wife and I were completely ignorant to it and that it is how the Macedonians of Florina see the Macedonians from the republic.

I have many friends from Lerin and I have never heard them refer to a person from the republic as a "SKI". In any case, this is merely a perception borne out of ignorance, same as some Macedonians from the republic who are uncertain why their brethren from the south have surnames with Greek endings, and similar to how some Greeks are confused as to why other citizens of Greece have surnames with Turkish endings. It is a result of historical circumstances, and, in the Macedonian case at least, not that important within the bigger picture.

[Risto the Great]

Yunanistan, are you really perplexed with all of this?
The first time I visited Egej, it felt so strange for me. I brought the culture of the region from 50 years earlier to my relatives there. It has changed and clearly is related to the assimilation strategies the Greeks have used during this period.

I felt more comfortable in Bitola than I did with my own people from Egej.

The "ski" ending is irrelevant. The people have reached a fork in their cultural development due to the artificial borders. But they share far more than many might realise or admit.

Happy to talk about it more, but maybe we should ask about how your culture has changed over the last 50 years or so. I had one client who was such a staunch Greek and proud of his pure ancestry who only recently found out his grandparents spoke pure Albanian. He is far more philosophical about Macedonians nowadays. Nothing is as it seems in Greece, it would appear.

[George S.]

yun congrats on your observance the ski bit came by in the second world war by the serbs.ski means male family of,Ska is daughter family of.THEre was a thread about this at the mto.Macedonians used to call themselves with of ending or no ending.anything about Macedonians not being Macedonians is pure propaganda.You should know what propaganda is & how its spread.Also it is used devised to hide the fact that the 113 Balkan wars where Macedonia was annexed was nothing more than a land grab.Do you think the greeks are going to openly announce that they stole the Macedonians land.NO they have devised propaganda to ignore the existence of the Macedonians no sorry slav Macedonians,slavophones, skopijans all they want is their land back?IN all this Greece is utterly wrong.THey are simply fearing their worst fear,denial & paranoia are the keys in producing a greek monster.Also do people know that the greeks aren't really greeks theres ample proof of that.

[Gocka]

I guess I'm just failing to express the fact that I acknowledge that everyone is Macedonians... Let me see if I can explain it this way. In Canada we are all Canadians, but when I go to Saskatchewan I am seen as an Ontarian, not as a Canadian as they too are Canadians. Now if I go to Quebec, much perhaps as your Albanian region, I'm seen as a Canadian by those Quebec Nationalist, but the Quebecers that are pro-canadians I'm an Ontarian.

You cant use Canada as an example because Macedonia is nothing like Canada. Canada is a country with no specific identity no specific ethnicity. Everyone who is a Canadian citizen is Canadian but no one is ethnically Canadian. Also Canada is as large as all of Europe, think of how vast the territory is in comparison to Macedonia which is smaller then a single large Canadian city. Even so its not like someone from Ontario identifies differently then someone from in another region. Other then the place they live what makes them different from each other? If the refer to you as an Ontarian its only to highlight where you live, but it doesn't really say much else about you. Macedonians dont see any difference between themselves ethnically. For example I am from the Republic of Macedonia and if I wanted to refer to a Macedonian living in Greece I would say Egejec, (Aegean), an Aegean Macedonian. The only reason I would say Egejec and not just Macedonian is because for what ever reason I want to highlight that he resides in Aegean Macedonia and not the Republic, but short of where he lives I see no other difference that I would highlight.

So your saying a Macedonian from Pirin would have no self-identifying regional identity from someone in Florina? Even as both are Macedonians? In Canada Toronto has a different regional identification within its 52 km width. Those on the eastern part of Toronto would be hard pressed to consider moving to the west, and those in the city vote and think differently from those on the outer areas.

I think you are relating superficial reasons for wanting to self identify differently from someone 50km form you. Again Canada is a bad example, in a country like Canada everyone is something else ethnically, so everyone cant go around just calling themselves, Greek, Macedonian, English, Italian, Spanish, etc etc. Do you understand? It wouldn't mean anything in a Canadian context if someone asked you where you are from and you said Greece. So obviously in a Canadian context you say I am from Toronto I am from Quebec, or if you are both from Toronto you say I am from East Toronto I am from West Toronto. Then to the superficial part, if West Toronto is poor and East affluent, then I would be hard pressed to live in West Toronto, does that mean I would be different form a person from west Toronto? Your argument makes no sense. You would think differently about them but how different?

If three Macedonians met for the first time, One from the Republic one from Pirin and one from Egejska and they all spoke Macedonian, first they would all be able to understand each other because the language although with slight dialect differences would be almost identical. Then if they tried to tell each other where they are from they would say (Republic) I am from Macedonia or the republic of Macedonia, (Pirin) I am from Pirin Macedonia or Bulgaria, (Egejska) I am from Aegean Macedonia or Greece. Other than admitting that they live in either Greece or Bulgaria what other difference do you think can be perceived? Do you think they identify ethnically in a different way or what? Please be more specific because so far you have given a very poor example that doesn't really say much and haven't really said what differences you think they say in each other?



So you think this person that clearly states she Macedonian and not Greek would get that differentiation from a Greek...in Canada? Her family would not correct this?

The differentiation is true, The majority of Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia have names ending in ski but also in ev and ov the ski ending to a surname would be very rare in Pirin or Egejska. So if someone used ski to refer to a Macedonian from the republic it wouldn't necessarily be wrong, but the underlying reason is far more important. Many Macedonians from Egejska had their names converted to Greek to force them to assimilate, most of them are Macedonian names that had the ski removed and had a Greek ending added. Again although the distinction is true it doesn't really mean anything and like I said I am almost positive the the girl is misguided or doesn't realize that someone probably originally came up with that term as an offensive one. Her parents probably aren't any the wiser. Why do you just ask them? If I come up with my own term to describe a Greek, like Yunani, its true that in some language it is a way of referring to Greeks, but in my context I mean it as an insult, you used a user name Yunanistan. In my opinion you are doing the same thing as this girl, you are using a term that other mean as an insult not realizing that we mean it as an insult. Another example is when black people in the USA call each other Nigga, or Nigger. White people meant it as an insult, but they say it to each other with a different meaning, they are not insulting each other or using it in the same context that a white person would. So if she is saying ski maybe she doesn't mean it in a bad way, but also might or might not know that other do mean it in a bad way.


Its a little worrying to me that you are coming up with very superficial things to try and prove or disprove something very deep and emotional. Do you really think that some teenage girl calling Macedonians in the Republic "skis" has any deeper meaning or proves anything? These things have no real impact on self consciousness and ethnic identity, so whats the real point here? Or did you think that you stumbled on a gold mine only to find out it was fools gold?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I would agree with you that she may not know why some have a "ski" in their names or not, but if we speak the same language, which you do, and some name do end with a ski while other don't, why would there be any such reference as seeing them coming from the north? Not that it is wrong, which it is not, but that it tells me and other Greeks something about you that we did not know.

I understand what you're saying, but what is your underlying point? From what I've seen, it's fairly standard across the globe to have geographic identifiers within a country. It's like me referring to people from different, yet nearby villages as nevolci, bapchorci, krpeshani, etc. As I stated in my previous post, Macedonians have suffered under foreign occupation, and as we've seen, different regions of Macedonia have been occupied by different nations in the past. Each have attempted to implement their respective assimilation policies aimed at eradicating the identity and culture of the Macedonian people. This also involved name changes. Macedonians in the Republic have their independence, so it is no surprise why most people who live there have typical Macedonian surnames. Perhaps this girl's family name was altered and her knowledge of why it is such is very limited.

Please slow down and don't run ahead with assumptions that this implies one being better than the other. Where have I said that? I'm only stating that you may see each other based on the region that you come from, which is natural, and if so does it harm you to discuss that?

It isn't natural at all in this context. To divide a group of people up over the course of 100 years and try to systematically change who and what they are isn't natural. It can be expected that over this time there would be somewhat of a disconnection between Macedonians from different regions. But this has changed to a large extent, in particular with the availability of the internet and other resources that allow Macedonians to connect with Macedonians from all areas. This has promoted a mutual understanding between Macedonians from all areas and we've seen a significant decline in any social barriers that may have previously existed between the groups. At the end of the day they are one group, that has just been forcibly divided time and time again by foreign forces.

I agree with everything you say here, so it must also exist with you

It also exists with Greece, Australia and just about every other country out there.

If I thought I could so incite division amongst you, two things would to be true: Everyone on this site would have to be of a very week constitution and I would have to be incredibly smart to do it would speaking the language and with the level of ignorance I have about the different regions.

As you guys are assessing me, by what I post, I am also assessing your flexibility to discuss reasonably about issues that relate to Macedonians as people like everyone else on this planet.

Is that possible? If not, say so and I'll say my goodbye. But I hope you don't

Inciting doesn't mean you'll be successful in doing so. But if that is your aim then you're wasting your time here. Some of us here are happy to discuss, but our patience is limited when you've still yet to describe why this concept is so interesting to you. On one hand you acknowledge that everyone in the world uses these kind of regional distinctions (despite people from that country being one and the same), yet you're surprised when it comes to Macedonians? I'll ask again. Why do you want to know this? There must be a reason, otherwise you would not be pushing that 'Canadians do it within a 52km radius, so surely Macedonians would.' It almost seems like you are trying to fish out a very particular response.

[Yunanistan]

It seems to me that you are starting off with the assumption that Macedonians from different regions within the Republic of Macedonia and within annexed lands around the Republic look at each other differently.

The simple answer is they look at each other the same. Within in the Republic of Macedonia, no matter what region or what city they all identify each other as Macedonians. There are no smaller sub sects of that identity other then the small groups of Muslim Macedonians who we still Identify as Macedonians but that do not share the Orthodox faith that the majority practice.

I guess I'm just failing to express the fact that I acknowledge that everyone is Macedonians... Let me see if I can explain it this way. In Canada we are all Canadians, but when I go to Saskatchewan I am seen as an Ontarian, not as a Canadian as they too are Canadians. Now if I go to Quebec, much perhaps as your Albanian region, I'm seen as a Canadian by those Quebec Nationalist, but the Quebecers that are pro-canadians I'm an Ontarian.

It is no different with the Macedonians in Greece, and Bulgaria. We see them as Macedonians, they see themselves as Macedonians, and the only difference we see is that they live in another country and to some degree have adapted to life in those countries.

So your saying a Macedonian from Pirin would have no self-identifying regional identity from someone in Florina? Even as both are Macedonians? In Canada Toronto has a different regional identification within its 52 km width. Those on the eastern part of Toronto would be hard pressed to consider moving to the west, and those in the city vote and think differently from those on the outer areas.

Also the "ski" I am also hearing for the first time, and if this girl did use it then she may have picked it up from some misguided Greeks not realizing they meant it as an insult.

So you think this person that clearly states she Macedonian and not Greek would get that differentiation from a Greek...in Canada? Her family would not correct this?

[Gocka]

It seems to me that you are starting off with the assumption that Macedonians from different regions within the Republic of Macedonia and within annexed lands around the Republic look at each other differently.

The simple answer is they look at each other the same. Within in the Republic of Macedonia, no matter what region or what city they all identify each other as Macedonians. There are no smaller sub sects of that identity other then the small groups of Muslim Macedonians who we still Identify as Macedonians but that do not share the Orthodox faith that the majority practice. They all speak the same language, practice the same religion, and have an all but identical culture. The only variations you will find among them is slight differences in dialect and cultural practices that you would find in any country any where in the world. Obviously I am speaking up ethnic Macedonians, we still identify other ethnic minorities like Serbs, Bosnian s, Albanians, Croats, Greeks, Bulgarians, Vlachs, and Turks. So in the Republic we clearly separate our identity from the ones I listed above, even though some of the minorities share similar language, religion and culture, we respect their right to be who they are, and we see them as different enough to consider them an ethnicity different from ours.

It is no different with the Macedonians in Greece, and Bulgaria. We see them as Macedonians, they see themselves as Macedonians, and the only difference we see is that they live in another country and to some degree have adapted to life in those countries.

Also the "ski" I am also hearing for the first time, and if this girl did use it then she may have picked it up from some misguided Greeks not realizing they meant it as an insult.

Thanks for participating in this discussion everyone, I do appreciate it and I'll tell you of my reasons behind the topic of this thread.

At this point I would like to use the term "People" interchangeably with "Macedonians". When I say "People" I will always mean "Macedonians". Not Greeks, nor Bulgarians, nor Albanians, Roma, Turks, Vlah or any other ethnicity. This thread is strictly about the Macedonian Ethnicity.

So this is where my ignorance comes in. To simply call everyone "Macedonians", yes tells me that you are Macedonians, but it fails to tell me anything about, for an example the people of Strumica and how they see the People from Florina, How the people of Florina see those is Strumica and those in Skopje? You are all Macedonians, but amongst yourselves how do you see the others?

My inquiry is legitimate and I'm not trying to screw with you guys, so I'll get to the reason I started this thread.

I'm one of those Grutsi, Yunanlilars, "Albanians converts", "Turkish Christians", who thought I new who you were as a people. In my minds eye there was not much more to understand until my wife and I visited my friend and his wife.

His wife told us about a Macedonian young girl at her workplace. The young girl's family originates from Florina and they are Macedonians. The young girl calls herself Macedonian, not Greek, speaks Macedonian, does not understand a word of Greek. Now here is what she apparently said that floored all of us. In explaining here weekend, my friend's wife, told us that the young girl described one of her Macedonian girlfriends as a "SKI".

My friends wife had to ask the girl, what is a "SKI", which she explained are the people from the Republic of Macedonia.

As I typed that last sentence, I'm thinking that you may remove me from this forum, which is obviously up to you, I don't know how you will receive it, but it is honestly what I'm told the young girl said. She in now way said that those identified as "SKI"s are not Macedonian.


We talked about the term "SKI" and my friend, his wife, my wife and I were completely ignorant to it and that it is how the Macedonians of Florina see the Macedonians from the republic.

I'm not trying to sow divisions between you, I'm only trying to better understand you. I think you can understand how I would not know of anything like this.

[Yunanistan]

My family is from the Lerin (Florina) region, and I've never heard the term 'ski' used to describe fellow Macedonians from the Republic. 'Ski' seems to be a more common surname suffix the further north you go, but it's found all over Macedonia. Maybe she is unaware that the Greek government altered the names of Macedonian people in an attempt to assimilate the population. Her authentic family name may very well end in ski.

I would agree with you that she may not know why some have a "ski" in their names or not, but if we speak the same language, which you do, and some name do end with a ski while other don't, why would there be any such reference as seeing them coming from the north? Not that it is wrong, which it is not, but that it tells me and other Greeks something about you that we did not know.

The divisions between Macedonians from different regions of Macedonia are not as evident now as they may have once been. There is a greater sense of unity amongst the people, and many have overcome the misguided view that Macedonians from other areas are somehow lesser beings. Although the culture and dialect may slightly differ in each area, at the end of the day we are all still Macedonians.

Please slow down and don't run ahead with assumptions that this implies one being better than the other. Where have I said that? I'm only stating that you may see each other based on the region that you come from, which is natural, and if so does it harm you to discuss that?

Why does the story of the Macedonian girl intrigue you so much? I'm sure Greeks have names for other Greeks from other parts of the country. We've even got these kind of references in Australia, when talking about people from another state.

I agree with everything you say here, so it must also exist with you

I've read most of your posts and still don't understand what your aim is here. Your presence seems very shallow and so far your questions serve little purpose other than to incite division amongst Macedonians.

If I thought I could so incite division amongst you, two things would to be true: Everyone on this site would have to be of a very week constitution and I would have to be incredibly smart to do it would speaking the language and with the level of ignorance I have about the different regions.

As you guys are assessing me, by what I post, I am also assessing your flexibility to discuss reasonably about issues that relate to Macedonians as people like everyone else on this planet.

Is that possible? If not, say so and I'll say my goodbye. But I hope you don't

[EgejskaMakedonia]

My family is from the Lerin (Florina) region, and I've never heard the term 'ski' used to describe fellow Macedonians from the Republic. 'Ski' seems to be a more common surname suffix the further north you go, but it's found all over Macedonia. Maybe she is unaware that the Greek government altered the names of Macedonian people in an attempt to assimilate the population. Her authentic family name may very well end in ski.

The divisions between Macedonians from different regions of Macedonia are not as evident now as they may have once been. There is a greater sense of unity amongst the people, and many have overcome the misguided view that Macedonians from other areas are somehow lesser beings. Although the culture and dialect may slightly differ in each area, at the end of the day we are all still Macedonians.

Why does the story of the Macedonian girl intrigue you so much? I'm sure Greeks have names for other Greeks from other parts of the country. We've even got these kind of references in Australia, when talking about people from another state. I've read most of your posts and still don't understand what your aim is here. Your presence seems very shallow and so far your questions serve little purpose other than to incite division amongst Macedonians.

[Yunanistan]

Thanks for participating in this discussion everyone, I do appreciate it and I'll tell you of my reasons behind the topic of this thread.

At this point I would like to use the term "People" interchangeably with "Macedonians". When I say "People" I will always mean "Macedonians". Not Greeks, nor Bulgarians, nor Albanians, Roma, Turks, Vlah or any other ethnicity. This thread is strictly about the Macedonian Ethnicity.

So this is where my ignorance comes in. To simply call everyone "Macedonians", yes tells me that you are Macedonians, but it fails to tell me anything about, for an example the people of Strumica and how they see the People from Florina, How the people of Florina see those is Strumica and those in Skopje? You are all Macedonians, but amongst yourselves how do you see the others?

My inquiry is legitimate and I'm not trying to screw with you guys, so I'll get to the reason I started this thread.

I'm one of those Grutsi, Yunanlilars, "Albanians converts", "Turkish Christians", who thought I new who you were as a people. In my minds eye there was not much more to understand until my wife and I visited my friend and his wife.

His wife told us about a Macedonian young girl at her workplace. The young girl's family originates from Florina and they are Macedonians. The young girl calls herself Macedonian, not Greek, speaks Macedonian, does not understand a word of Greek. Now here is what she apparently said that floored all of us. In explaining here weekend, my friend's wife, told us that the young girl described one of her Macedonian girlfriends as a "SKI".

My friends wife had to ask the girl, what is a "SKI", which she explained are the people from the Republic of Macedonia.

As I typed that last sentence, I'm thinking that you may remove me from this forum, which is obviously up to you, I don't know how you will receive it, but it is honestly what I'm told the young girl said. She in now way said that those identified as "SKI"s are not Macedonian.


We talked about the term "SKI" and my friend, his wife, my wife and I were completely ignorant to it and that it is how the Macedonians of Florina see the Macedonians from the republic.

I'm not trying to sow divisions between you, I'm only trying to better understand you. I think you can understand how I would not know of anything like this.