Macedonians and Cretans

[Spartan]

^^ Disregard my post then
My apologies sir

The one possibility of a link I can think of between the Ancient Macedonians and Cretans, is the theory that the Macedonians were Dorians who didnt migrate to the Pelloponese, but stayed put where they were. The reason I say this, is that the ancient Cretans(Minoans) were believed to have been absorbed into the Mycaenians, who were a Pelloponesian people and they in turn were assimilated into the Dorian tribes that had migrated to the area from the north..
Perhaps this is the link that shows up in the DNA evidence.
These events happened 1000bc or before, so I dont know what kind of impact this would have on a DNA test, as I dont know too much about how they work .
Also this Dorian "theory" is a theory, and not accepted 100%. Many historians believe its a relatively strong possibility, but lack enough evidence to remove the "theory" label.

[Pelister]

^^ Disregard my post then
My apologies sir

The one possibility of a link I can think of between the Ancient Macedonians and Cretans, is the theory that the Macedonians were Dorians who didnt migrate to the Pelloponese, but stayed put where they were. The reason I say this, is that the ancient Cretans(Minoans) were believed to have been absorbed into the Mycaenians, who were a Pelloponesian people and they in turn were assimilated into the Dorian tribes that had migrated to the area from the north..
Perhaps this is the link that shows up in the DNA evidence.
These events happened 1000bc or before, so I dont know what kind of impact this would have on a DNA test, as I dont know too much about how they work .
Also this Dorian "theory" is a theory, and not accepted 100%. Many historians believe its a relatively strong possibility, but lack enough evidence to remove the "theory" label.

There is very little evidence that Greeks migrated "from the North". Nor can historians agree exactly when the Greeks came. Some say early Bronze age, some say they came in various waves, but from where?

E.Craik has found that most "Bronze Age" sites in Mainland Greece contain many Greek words "around a non-Greek core". The Greeks, ancient and modern, are not autocthonous.

The migration of Greeks, happened rather late, and if their settlement of the coast line, provides us with any indication - the trend shows us they came from the South, and were moving North.

[osiris]

the other theory spartan is that macedonians and cretans belong to the original peoples who inhabited the islands and the balkans, wheras greeks are relative newcomers. thats what the dna testing is suggesting.

[Pelister]

the other theory spartan is that macedonians and cretans belong to the original peoples who inhabited the islands and the balkans, wheras greeks are relative newcomers. thats what the dna testing is suggesting.

The bronze age, and earlier, archeological evidence is backing that claim.

[Spartan]

There is very little evidence that Greeks migrated "from the North". Nor can historians agree exactly when the Greeks came. Some say early Bronze age, some say they came in various waves, but from where?

E.Craik has found that most "Bronze Age" sites in Mainland Greece contain many Greek words "around a non-Greek core". The Greeks, ancient and modern, are not autocthonous.

The migration of Greeks, happened rather late, and if their settlement of the coast line, provides us with any indication - the trend shows us they came from the South, and were moving North.

From what I know and have read, the post bronze age Greeks(classical Greeks) not to be confused with the Ancient Greeks of myth(homeric Greeks ex Mycaeneans, Minoans), came into the area, and assimilated into the remnants of the Ancients. The Dorians populated the Pelloponese( their origin is debated), and the Ionians populated Attica, the Islands and the more northen coastal areas of the Greek penninsula.
The Ionians are believed to have inhabited Anatolia(western Turkey). And as a matter of fact, the Turks refer to Greece and greeks as Ionia and Ionians to this day. Yunan and Yunanistan. Yunan being the Turkish words for Ionia.
The thing that I find intriguing though, is that if the theory that Dorians and Macedonians were one tribe at one point, then maybe your people and mine have some connection from the little bit of ancient blood that perhaps is still in some of us today!

The one thing the Ancient Spartans and Macedonians have in common is that they excelled at war, and both ruled Greece by force.

[Spartan]

There is very little evidence that Greeks migrated "from the North". Nor can historians agree exactly when the Greeks came. Some say early Bronze age, some say they came in various waves, but from where?
E.Craik has found that most "Bronze Age" sites in Mainland Greece contain many Greek words "around a non-Greek core". The Greeks, ancient and modern, are not autocthonous.
The migration of Greeks, happened rather late, and if their settlement of the coast line, provides us with any indication - the trend shows us they came from the South, and were moving North.

the other theory spartan is that macedonians and cretans belong to the original peoples who inhabited the islands and the balkans, wheras greeks are relative newcomers. thats what the dna testing is suggesting.

Heres some stuff I found guys.
This info is giving me a different version as to what I am reading about the Cretans on this forum.




References

"Dorian" Britannica Online.

http://www.eb.com:180/cgi-bin/g?DocF=micro/175/77.html

or

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/aegean/theculturesofgreece/dorians.html

Dorians
Dorians, people of ancient Greece. Their name was mythologically derived from Dorus, son of Hellen. Originating in the northwestern mountainous region of Epirus and SW Macedonia, they migrated through central Greece and into the Peloponnesus probably between 1100 and 950 B.C., defeating and displacing the Achaeans. They rapidly extended their influence to Crete and established colonies in Italy, Sicily, and Asia Minor. Sparta and Crete are generally considered as having had the most typical form of Dorian rule—the invaders maintained their separate societies and subjected and enslaved the conquered population. The arrival of the Dorians marked the disruption of the earlier Greek culture and the beginning of a period of decline. Although the cultural level of the Dorians was below that of the Achaeans, the Dorians did contribute to the culture of Greece, e.g., in drama, poetry, sculpture, and especially in the huge stone buildings that marked the beginning of the Doric style of architecture.

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2007, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0815906.html

[Pelister]

Actually, Homer says that the Greeks came from the Islands or the South.

Now, E. Craik in her book "The Dorian Aegean" takes the view that the Doric Greeks came from the North - and she discounts Homer's view as wrong. But, adds that their alphabet came from the East. Furthermore, she states that the linguistic evidence is contradictory, because she has found that the spread of Greek, moved Northward. So its not a clear picture.

[Spartan]

Actually, Homer says that the Greeks came from the Islands or the South.

Now, E. Craik in her book "The Dorian Aegean" takes the view that the Doric Greeks came from the North - and she discounts Homer's view as wrong. But, adds that their alphabet came from the East. Furthermore, she states that the linguistic evidence is contradictory, because she has found that the spread of Greek, moved Northward. So its not a clear picture.

1.That makes sense to me, seeing that the Dorians werent known for their intelligence. They have been described as uncouth, and primitive in comparison to the other 2 Greek tribes(tough as all hell though).

2.And it probably wont get any clearer than it is now.Which could be a good thing, because we can debate it till the cows come home on forums like this

Id just like to add, in regards to Homer, the Greeks he tells about in his stories are pre-Dorian/Ionian i believe.

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

It seems that there are similarities between Montenegrin and Cretan traditional costumes of men. What do you all think?

All 6 images below taken randomly using google.

Montenegro #1


Montenegro #2


Montenegro #3



Crete #1


Crete #2


Crete #3

[Carlin]

FYI:

As I have already posted on this site, Sokratis Liakos [in his book "The origins of the Armonians (Vlachs)"] argued that the Montenegrins are SLAVICIZED ILLYRIOVLACHS.

Additionally (and interestingly), on page 108 he mentions how Illyriovlach tribes descended and settled in Sfakia, Crete.

(Could these tribes have been Slavic-speakers as well?)