1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    George, what exactly are you suggesting with the above list of words?
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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    • Epirot
      Member
      • Mar 2010
      • 399

      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      The Greeks from the Albanians, and the Albanians from the Macedonians, Serbs and other Slavic-speaking peoples of the Balkans
      That is not sure at all. If a certain part of Macedonians (especially those of central and Aegean Macedonia) wore fustanella, this doesn't mean that Albanians borrowed from them since this dress had had a wide usage from North Albania up to the Morea. For the sake of truth, we should put forward the following statement: Albanians, Macedonians and Vlachs inherited this unique dress from the Thraco-Illyrians.

      From what I've seen, there is a variation of fustanella. The Albanian fustanella and Macedonian one differs in some aspects.

      Macedonian fustanella:







      Albanian fustanella:







      Usually Albanian fustanellas are more long, while in region of Macedonia are to be found mainly a version of fustanellas which are designed more short.
      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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      • George S.
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 10116

        SOM i noticed some variations on name etc but it's all the same in the end.
        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
        GOTSE DELCEV

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        • Epirot
          Member
          • Mar 2010
          • 399

          I dunno if this has been posted even before, but I'll present some worthy passages which cast some light on the densely Albanian inhabited regions in what is today called as Greece:



          In another place, W. S. Cooke ranks Macedonians as a nation in addition with Montenegrins, Albanians and Bulgarians:


          p. 169

          The Ottoman Empire and Its Tributary States (Expecting Egypt) By W. S. Cooke

          P.S: The quoted book has been written exactly on 1876!!!
          Last edited by Epirot; 10-08-2011, 12:03 PM.
          IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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          • cultea
            Banned
            • Jul 2011
            • 126

            Gee, one wonders what the percentage of Albanians in 1870 Greece was (prior the addition of Thessaly). Or, if that book gives full statistics and an estimation (e.g. 13%), right above the caption you posted.

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            • Epirot
              Member
              • Mar 2010
              • 399

              Originally posted by cultea View Post
              Gee, one wonders what the percentage of Albanians in 1870 Greece was (prior the addition of Thessaly). Or, if that book gives full statistics and an estimation (e.g. 13%), right above the caption you posted.
              All the statistics given to that period contains some controversies as they fail to count properly people on the basis of language. Perhaps we shall never know accurately the real number of each people in Greece because 'Greek' term at that time had barely ethnic connotation. With the annexation of Thessaly, Ionian islands and large sections of Epirus, the Albanian population numerically increased even more. Thessaly had a very mixed population consisting of Vlachs, Turks, Albanians, Jews and Slavs:

              The whole of the peasantry in Attica, and the eastern part of Baeotia, and one-fifth of the inhabitants of Athens itself, are Albanians. They are found preserving their distinctive character, and are generally employed as shepherds in the districts of Elis, Argolis, Arcadia, and Laconia. In Thessaly they are estimated at one-third of the population.

              A system of geography, popular and scientific: or A physical ..., Volume 2 By James Bell
              Last edited by Epirot; 10-08-2011, 02:13 PM.
              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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              • cultea
                Banned
                • Jul 2011
                • 126

                Let's read this part from your book:

                Population of Greece. The whole population of Modern Greece is composed of three races, Turks, Albanians, and Greeks: equally distinct In their origin, manners, and character. With these are mingled a small number of Jews, Armenians, and Wallachians. In what proportion these three races are combined, it is impossible accurately to determine. It is certain that the Turks are fewest in number. They are most numerous in Macedonia, Thessaly, and Negropont, are thinly scattered over the rest of Greece and Albania, and scarcely exist at all in the islands.

                Albanians. The Albanians constitute the next class, and are very numerous. As to the etymon of the name, and, consequently the origin of the people so denominated, we are much in the dark. A people called Albani, and the city Albanopolis, are mentioned by Ptolemy; and the city so called is placed by him in 41 6' N. lat. whilst the Albani are placed north of the Taulantii. They were, of course, an Illyrian tribe. Albanopolis is mentioned by Pliny, and is assigned by him to the district of the Almopians, who, by Ptolemy, are placed south of the Albani. There can be no reasonable doubt, that as both the Albani and Albanopolis are described by Ptolemy, and the latter is mentioned by both Ptolemy and Pliny, the Albani were the ancestors of the modern Albanians. History makes no mention of the extinction of the Illyrians, nor of the entrance of a new tribe which has since grown up into the modern community of Albanians. The Byzantine historians, to whom we are chiefly indebted for an account of the history and progress of this now interesting people, mention them at once as the inhabitants of a part of the region in which they now dwell—the high tract of mountains on the frontiers of Illyricum and Macedonia. It is probable that, on the extinction of the Macedonian power, always formidable to the Illyrians, and the depopulation of Epirus and the dismantling of all her towns to the number of 70, the Illyrians would gradually encroach on Epirus, now rendered comparatively defenceless. Among the Illyrian tribes the Albani would gradually gain the ascendency, till the name of Illyrian would be lost in that of Albanian. In the reign of Constantine the Great, southern Illyria, or that part which bordered on the ancient Epirus, was erected into a prefecturate called Epirus Novus. Hence the new denomination serves as a reason to explain why the famous Scanderbeg, born in the Illyrian provinces, assumed the title of prince of Epirus. During the 11th century, they bore a part in some of the wars of the Greek empire. In the times of the separate principality, which, under the name of Acarnania or Etolia, was erected by Michael Angelus, in the commencement of the 13th century, we find them extending themselves by a predatory warfare; and spreading themselves at intervals over the whole of Epirus, Thessaly, & in the middle of the 14th century, in spite of a powerful expedition against them by the second Andronicus. They ennobled themselves by the powerful resistance which they made to the Turkish sultans, Morad and Mohammed, under the auspices of the celebrated George Castriota, who defeated the Turks in 22 battles. He ruled over the territory extending along the coast, from the river Bojana and the Palus Labeates, or lake Schiabak, or lake of Scutari, to the mouth of the Thyamis, now Kalama, opposite the isle of Corfu. It was in his days that the designation of Albania prevailed, as the Albani of Ptolemy were properly his subjects, and at that time inhabited the districts of Kroja, Tyrano, and Dukagini, and to whom he was chiefly indebted for his victories. The Albani, strictly so called, are at present denominated Merediti, and live in the pashalik of Scutari.
                The appellations Albani and Albania are of Roman and Greek origin; for in their own language they call themselves Arnauts, and their country Arnautlich. They differ in language, manners, and dress, from both Turks and Greeks, and as a people are greatly superior to both. Various colonies of them have settled in Greece, from time to time, even more than four centuries since. It is probable that many of them have lost their distinctive character from this circumstance, and become blended with the mass of the Greek population. The whole of the peasantry in Attica, and the eastern part of Baeotia, and one-fifth of the inhabitants of Athens itself, are Albanians. They are found preserving their distinctive character, and are generally employed as shepherds in the districts of Elis, Argolis, Arcadia, and Laconia. In Thessaly they are estimated at one-third of the population. In the districts south of Mount Qita, as Doris, Phocis, and part of Beotia, they are more numerous. Considering the revolutions Greece has undergone, the Greek population cannot be unmixed. Many of the mountaineers may be of Albanian descent, or the offspring of other tribes, distinct in manners and character from the people of plains. Major Leake remarks, that the Greek mountaineers closely resemble the Albanians in character and customs. If we suppose the Albanian population to be double that of the Turkish—and it can hardly be less, in the rising circumstances of the Albanians—or 1,200,000, then the whole population of these two classes in Greece will amount to 1,800,000; while that of the Greeks may be 1,600,000 or nearly equal.

                [Note: So, according to him: Turks-Albanian-Greeks (18%-35%-47%), probably includes Muslim Albanians among them]

                The Greeks. The Greeks are numerous in Etolia; and in Acarnania, now Karli-Ili, they form the entire population. In Joannina, the capital of Southern Albania, they are the most numerous and respectable class of inhabitants; and in the towns and villages of that province, they generally constitute the basis of the population. Every where the Greeks form a conspicuous part of the population of towns; and in all those south of Mount Eta, with a very few exceptions, they are the great majority of the population. Now that the Turks have been expelled from the Morea, the Greeks may be said to form the entire population, with the exception of a few districts, where the Albanians are regularly colonized.
                The descendants of the ancient Hellenes still exhibit in their persons the beautiful classical forms which we admire in the works of ancient masters. They are still as giddy, vacillating, vain, and boasting, as they were in the times of Alcibiades; but they have also proved themselves not less gallant than their heroic ancestors. They have in general a fine and slender shape, their motions are noble, their features expressive, and their dress clean and elegant. The women are slender, with fine features, and manners full of dignity; their countenance is expressive. Mr Emerson maintains that on an examination of the traits of Greek character peculiar to each district, we shall upon the whole, find the seeds of numerous virtues, however slightly developed, still discernible under a mass of vices; and which, when properly cultivated, under an equitable government, cannot fail to raise the Greeks high in the scale of nations.
                The Albanians have long since ceased to be considered either Mussulmans or Greeks. In the Morea, a closer connection with the Turks, and various minor causes, have produced a character less amiable and exalted than that of the Roumelich, the inhabitants of what is now termed Eastern and Western Greece. In the Messenians, or natives of the south-western coast, the traits of debasement are peculiarly perceptible. But there are two singular exceptions from these remarks to be found in the Morea: the inhabitants of Lalla in Elis, and those of Maina in the south-eastern promontory. The former are a colony of Albanian peasantry; the latter are the descendants of the ancient Spartans, and seem possessed of the common virtues of barbarians, accompanied by almost all their vices. In the Hyduots and Spezziots we find much to admire and esteem, especially among the higher orders.
                Last edited by cultea; 10-09-2011, 02:55 AM.

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                • Epirot
                  Member
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 399

                  Originally posted by cultea View Post
                  The Greeks are numerous in Etolia; and in Acarnania, now Karli-Ili, they form the entire population.
                  cultea you're intentionally avoiding from some basic principles to determine the demographic picture of the Greece at the time we are speaking about. I said that 'Greek' appellation had a very confusing connotation during all the time: it was used to denote the religious affiliation rather than ethnic one. That's why there are no chances to determine what is really Greek and what's not. In the quoted text it is stated that Greeks are numerous in Etolia and Acarnania. Is that true?

                  Pouqueville considered Acarnania as a little canton of Southern Albania:

                  Carlelia, the ancient Acarnania, is a little canton of Southern Albania...
                  Here I got a map which illustrates the above description:


                  Covens & Mortier, c. 1720.

                  I suggest to not ignore a small detail in the region of Acarnania. The cartographers have expressively noted it as Albania!!! If Greeks really made up the majority in Acarnania, then why this region has been grouped with Albania?

                  Originally posted by cultea

                  Now that the Turks have been expelled from the Morea, the Greeks may be said to form the entire population, with the exception of a few districts, where the Albanians are regularly colonized.
                  This is an assumption rather than an accurate statement. I suspect if the Greeks could ever form the majority of Morea...I mean there are plenty of cases where Albanians are labeled Greeks because of their Orthodox religion.


                  Source: Ethnographische karte des Peloponnes (ethnographic map of the Peloponnese), by Dr. Alfred Philippson, Petermanns Mitteilungen, 1890.

                  So in the time of Philippson, there were a lot of Albanians who got superficially Greacized.

                  The appellations Albani and Albania are of Roman and Greek origin; for in their own language they call themselves Arnauts, and their country Arnautlich. They differ in language, manners, and dress, from both Turks and Greeks, and as a people are greatly superior to both. Various colonies of them have settled in Greece, from time to time, even more than four centuries since. It is probable that many of them have lost their distinctive character from this circumstance, and become blended with the mass of the Greek population. The whole of the peasantry in Attica, and the eastern part of Baeotia, and one-fifth of the inhabitants of Athens itself, are Albanians. They are found preserving their distinctive character, and are generally employed as shepherds in the districts of Elis, Argolis, Arcadia, and Laconia. In Thessaly they are estimated at one-third of the population. In the districts south of Mount Qita, as Doris, Phocis, and part of Beotia, they are more numerous. Considering the revolutions Greece has undergone, the Greek population cannot be unmixed. Many of the mountaineers may be of Albanian descent, or the offspring of other tribes, distinct in manners and character from the people of plains. Major Leake remarks, that the Greek mountaineers closely resemble the Albanians in character and customs
                  Last edited by Epirot; 10-09-2011, 05:45 AM.
                  IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                  • Onur
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2010
                    • 2389

                    Epirot, if we rollback to 1820s in the second map (drawn in 1890), we gotta make all the central Morea and the northwest side as full red in color too, because in 1820, ~25.000 muslim Albanian and Turkish has been massacred and about ~5000 people was able to fled to Macedonia. I think that ~30.000 people was probably around 1/3 of whole Morea in 1820.

                    This makes us conclude that the Greek speaking population was only majority in Messenia and Mania b4 1820. In Crete, Turks and Greeks was about 50-50 `till 1897. So, in fact, there was more Greek/Romaoi speaking people in Istanbul and Izmir city centers comparing to whole Morea `till 1900s.
                    .
                    Last edited by Onur; 10-09-2011, 07:25 AM.

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                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13675

                      Originally posted by Onur View Post
                      This makes us conclude that the Greek speaking population was only majority in Messenia and Mania b4 1820.
                      That appears to make some sense as they are in the southermost regions of the Peloponnese. Our old friend Spartan would have been happy with that comment
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Epirot
                        Member
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 399

                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        That appears to make some sense as they are in the southermost regions of the Peloponnese. Our old friend Spartan would have been happy with that comment
                        To be honest, I do not know much things about Maniates and their ethnic affiliation. I am very intrigued if they were some remains of an older Spartan population (as many Phil-hellenes pathetically claimed) or blended with Albanians settlers, as they become so similar both in language and way of life. They were famous for being one of the most warlike tribe in the whole Morea and Ottomans could submit them only superficially.

                        Like the Albanians, the Maniatai have many chivalrous qualities. A woman can travel all over Mane, and will be sure of her countrymen's respect. Indeed, the bloody annals of Mane's struggles against the Turks show that the fine Maniate women have proved themselves as courageous as the men, and have always been well able to defend themselves. Hospitality has always been a Maniate trait. If a stranger appeals to a Maniate for protection, his host will allow himself to be killed rather than break the code of honour by giving up his guest. Clannishness is naturally characteristic of such a people.

                        Greek life in town & country, William Miller - 1905

                        There are many other things that deserve to be further examined in that book: http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...ntry-lli.shtml
                        So according to the above description, Maniates cherish almost all characteristics which Albanians are most famous for. The Maniates were divided into several clans, which were hostile to each other. They had also a code of honor and hospitality was one of pillars of their code.

                        The same has been observed as well from an another author:

                        Very similar in their character to the Albanians in the north of Greece are the Mainiotes at the southern extremity of the Morea. These people, supposed to be the descendants of ancient Sparta,


                        The Quarterly review, Volume 23 By William Gifford,
                        Whereas the following passage reveal the ignorance of some foreign observers who considered Maniotes as one of the purest Greek groups, while they were nothing else but Albanians:

                        The Mainotes, or Maniotes. of the peninsula terminating in Cape Matapan, are generally supposed to be the Greeks of the purest blood. They themselves claim to be the descendants of the ancient Spartans, and amongst their strongholds they still point out one which belonged to " Signor Lycurgus." Their Councils of Elders have preserved from immemorial times, and down to the war of independence, the title of Senate of Lacedaemonia. Every Mainote professes to love unto death " Liberty, the highest of all goods, inherited from our Spartan ancestors." Nevertheless, a good many localities in Maina bear names derived from the Servian, and these prove, at all events, that the Slays resided in the country for a considerable time. The Mainotes practise the rendetta, as if they were Montenegrins. But is not this a common custom amongst all uncivilised nations ?
                        Or this one:

                        The martial spirit and the partial independence of the Souliotes of Northern Greece, and the Maniats (commonly written Maniotes)of the Peloponnesus, the former of Albanian, the latter of the purest Greek lineage,

                        The Southern magazine: Volume 13, Southern Historical Society - 1873
                        It is historically known that Albanians were settled in Mani:

                        Albanians settled in Athens, Corinth, Mani, Thessaly and even in the Aegean islands.

                        Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation
                        If I am not mistaken, it was the Arvanite intellectual, Aristidh Kola who suggested that Mani has taken its name from Albanian. "Man" in Albanian means 'mulberry'. I am not sure if this etymology should be maintained? What are your thoughts?
                        Last edited by Epirot; 10-09-2011, 08:32 AM.
                        IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13675

                          Interesting sources, thanks Epirot. I think the people of Mani are probably one of the few native Greek-speaking groups to have survived throughout the Roman and Ottoman periods.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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                          • Epirot
                            Member
                            • Mar 2010
                            • 399

                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Interesting sources, thanks Epirot. I think the people of Mani are probably one of the few native Greek-speaking groups to have survived throughout the Roman and Ottoman periods.
                            In principle, I agree that a section of ancient Greeks may have survived at a certain scale, but this needs to be further elaborated. I have no problem to accept that some Spartan tribes could escape from assimilation due to the remote terrain of Peloponnese. But neo-Greeks as far as I know never pay attention to them. Instead they stubbornly claimed unbroken continuity to some groups, who had not a single tie with ancient Hellenes (for instance, 'Asiatic' greek-speakings). Now this open a new question: if Maniotes are descended from ancient Spartans, then why this has been denied for Albanians, Macedonians and even Turks to be consider as descendants of Illyrians, Macedonians and Anatolians, respectively?

                            Secondly, if Maniotes are really Spartan's remains, then why they are so similar with Albanians?
                            If Maniotes are really Greeks, then why their descendants in southern Italy call themselves as Albanians? I am referring to the inhabitants of "Piana degli Albanesi", which was found by Albanian emigrants who got expelled from Koron in the Mani region.

                            There exists some evidences that Albanian Himariotes are nothing else but descendants of Maniotes. It would be unnecessary to bring dozens of facts about Albanian identity of Himariotes. Their case perhaps cast some light about the ethnic affiliation of Maniotes!
                            Last edited by Epirot; 10-09-2011, 11:47 AM.
                            IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                            • Epirot
                              Member
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 399

                              Greece has long been a reservoir of fugitives from nations differing in habits, language, religion, and blood. The Albanian from the marshes of Dacia; the Italian, planted during the western invasion under the Venetians; the Norman ; the dispersed families of Constantinople and Asia Minor ; with, in the midst of her mountains, a precious and scarcely mingled remnant of the ancient blood of Hellas; yet all those characters have rapidly given way, and hecn moulded into one by the power of position.

                              Blackwood's magazine, Volume 20
                              Wait a second here...I thought Greece has been always a reservoir of a pure Greek race whose lineal continuity can be traced back to the Bronze age
                              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                              • Epirot
                                Member
                                • Mar 2010
                                • 399

                                The European concert



                                The story of Greece is indeed funny, isn't? One does not even know whether to call it tragic or comic?! An Orthodox Albanian quarreling with a Muslim Albanian. This is the plain truth, whether you like or not. This the true story of the so called Greek Revolution, which had nothing Hellenic. In the background, Great Powers were enjoying the bloody fight and at the same time, they were ready to re-name the involved parts in the war. The Orthodox Albanian hence now would be called a genuine Greek (presumably descended from old Greeks), while Muslim Albanian would be called a fierce Turk who came from the midst of Asia.
                                Last edited by Epirot; 10-23-2011, 09:05 AM.
                                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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