Macedonia found on the Colosseum in Rome!

[Daskalot]

These two great maps have I found on the Colosseum in Rome, they are depicting the Roman Empire during its different phases. One thing is certain, there was a Macedonia but never a Greece. See for yourselves.

Map 1 found on the Colosseum:


Map 2 found on the Colosseum:


I am stunned, where is this Ancient state of Greece??? It seems that the Romans could not find it......

[Diabolical]

So much for the idea that the Macedonians "united" the Ancient Greek cities... if that was the case... we would see the Greece on the map!

[Daskalot]

correct, Ancient Greece is a figment of the imagination of our Modern Greek imposters to legitimize their claim on history

[Spartan]

Greece proper is referred to as 'Achaia' on those maps
It was an administrative name given by the Romans to the Pelloponnesse after it was absorbed into the empire in 146bc.
Heres a wiki reference-

In Ancient Roman times the name of the province of Achaea was given to the whole of Greece, except Thessaly, most of Epirus, and Acarnania. It is in this latter enlarged meaning that the name is always used in the New Testament (e.g., Acts 18:12, 27; 19:21; Romans 15: 26; 16:5). It was conquered and incorporated into the Roman Empire in the year 146 BC. Emperor Augustus established Achaea as a senatorial province; generally speaking, the region benefited from the enlightened attitude of Roman emperors such as Augustus. This was because Achaea was geographically closer to Rome than other provinces, and so it was given political advantages and greater status in order for the Roman court to maintain a political equilibrium within the empire.[1]

Homer, in his 2 epics, often refers to the Greeks as 'Achaean' as well.
It is an old name, with roots from ancient Greece.
A province in the north Pelloponnese bears the name 'Achaea' to this day.

Under the Roman empire Greece, or Achaia, was simply one province among many

http://students.missouri.edu/~csgsa/conf03.html

The Achaeans (in Greek Ἀχαιοί, Achaioi) is the collective name given to the Greek forces in Homer's Iliad (used 598 times). An alternative name, used interchangeably, is Danaans (Δαναοί, used 138 times) and Argives (Ἀργεῖοι, used 29 times). Argives is a political annotation drawn from the original capital of the Achaeans, Argos. Danaans is the name attributed to the tribe first dominating the Peloponnese and the area near Argos. Achaeans is the name of the tribe that, reinforced by the Aeolians, first dominated Greek territories, centering itself around its capital in Mycenae. The Homère Caetani bust at the Louvre, a 2nd century Roman copy of a 2nd century BC Greek original. ... The Iliad (Ancient Greek , Ilias) is, together with the Odyssey, one of the two principal ancient Greek epic poems. ... Argos (Greek: ΆÏ�γος, Ã�rgos, IPA argos) is a city in Greece in the Peloponnese near Nafplio, which was its historic harbor, named for Nauplius. ... The Peloponnese or Peloponnesus (Greek: Πελοπόννησος Peloponnesos; see also List of traditional Greek place names) is a large peninsula in southern Greece, forming the part of the country south of the Gulf of Corinth. ... The Aeolians were one of the Hellenic tribes. ... Mycenae (ancient Greek: , IPA, , in modern Greek: Μυκήνες, , U.S. English: ; see also List of traditional Greek place names), is an archaeological site in Greece, located about 90km south-west of Athens, in the north-eastern Peloponnese. ...

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Achaeans

[Daskalot]

Hmmmm, so during the course of history "Greece" has changed names quite frequently, and still the majority of the Greeks claim ancestry of the Ancients, isnt that quite absurd given the various names of the area which today encompasses Greece and even the various terms used for describing a "Greek" inhabiting the same area.

[Spartan]

Daskalot
The way I see it, and I am not an expert by any stretch, many names have been used for the Pelloponnese, 'Achaea' probably being among the oldest.
Seeing as the ancient Romans were fascinated by Ancient Greek history(remember, at the time of Romes glory, Greek history would have ben "ancient" to the Romans of 146)it does not shock me that they would rename their newly aquired province by its old Homeric name. 'Achea or Achaean' is just another name for the Southern Greeks/Greece.
Regardless of what you want to call the Pelloponnese- Morea, Achaea, China or Siberia, the fact remains that Greek was spoken as the the main language through recorded history on this small Penninsula.
Now I understand language doesnt = ethnicity, but what would you, or anyone for that matter, call the inhabitants of Achaea of 146 bc?

The ethnicity of the people doesnt change with the name is my point.
For example, when the Greek state changed the names of Solun or Lerin to Thessaloniki and Florina, did the Macedonians who were from there cease to be Macedonian?
Of course not, they remain Macedonians, regardless of the 'official' name of their land.

Now apply this same logic in the above instance, and we should come to the conclusion that the people of Achaea,Pelloponnesse or Morea (whatever you want to call it)remain Greek, despite the name changes.

Its also well known that Macedonia became a Roman province after after the Romans conquered it.
I dont see why anyone would be surprised to see Macedonia on a map of the Roman empire

The Fourth Macedonian War or revolt occurred between 149 and 148 BC. The Macedonians wanted a restoration of their kingdom and supported a man who pretended to be the son of the last king. The rebels overran Macedon in 150, attacked southern Greece in 149, but were finally crushed by the Romans in 148 under the praetor Metellus Macedonicus. The Romans razed the Greek city of Corinth, one of the leading cities of the revolt and put an end to Greek resistance under Roman rule. It was this point, in 146 BC, that Macedonia became an official province with mainland Greece to follow shortly thereafter.

http://www.unrv.com/provinces/macedonia.php

Map of the Greatest Extent of the Roman Empire



Also notice how far south the roman province of Macedonia stretches.
Almost to Athens!!

[Sarafot]

is that ingraved in stone? if it is it is fantastic work!

[Risto the Great]

Spartan, very reasonable statements and observations from you.
I agree.
The only thing I will add is that I am absolutely sure nobody in Greece is attached to Danaan and Achaea as titles of self description nowadays. So the few names that the modern Greeks have plucked from history remain non-negotiable and the rest are cast aside on a heap of irrelevance. Macedonia is a jewel the Greeks care to claim now due to its historical significance. It is 1,000,000 times more irrelevant than the Danaan and Achaean names, yet they persist. Ultimately, self-identification will prevail and the modern Greeks have already chosen their self-descriptors. The debate about Macedonia will begin to vanish this year in my opinion, I can feel the (unjustified) passion disappearing from the modern Greeks on this matter.

But notwithstanding this, the maps make it clear that if we are talking about anything resembling nations from a historical sense, then we see Macedonia and Achaea as separate entities. We Macedonians say this as well.

[Daskalot]

is that ingraved in stone? if it is it is fantastic work!

Yes it is, it is engraved in stone, marble to be exact.

[Spartan]

Spartan, very reasonable statements and observations from you.
I agree.

Thank you Risto
You are reasonable as well to see what I am trying to say.
I feel like I have to walk on eggshells to show my point of view sometimes. I will always state my arguments in a way as to not offend the identity of the Macedonians. As I said once on this forum, I dont believe our histories are at odds with one anothers, and I believe they can both co-exist.
I only debate(occasionally) the history I read as it pertains to Greece, not Macedonia.

The only thing I will add is that I am absolutely sure nobody in Greece is attached to Danaan and Achaea as titles of self description nowadays.

I am sure of this as well
Never heard anyone refer to themselves as an 'Achaean' in my brief time on this earth

But notwithstanding this, the maps make it clear that if we are talking about anything resembling nations from a historical sense, then we see Macedonia and Achaea as separate entities. We Macedonians say this as well.

Like oil and water my friend....

PS
I just adde a map to my previous post
Check it out

[Risto the Great]

Like oil and water my friend....

With Greeks like you Spartan, it would be like Oil and Balsamic Vinegar.
Both complementary.

[Spartan]

Sure buddy
sounds good to me

Tell me Risto, did you notice how far south the Macedonian province reaches?
were you aware of this?

[Risto the Great]

I missed that mate.
Don't worry, I won't be claiming the "new territories" soon.

[Spartan]

Claim them if you want brother!
Although Macedonia stretched far south on that map, it isnt far enough for me to go dusting off my armour or anything crazy like that

[Diabolical]

Ahh, thanks for the explanation Spartan