What Made The Byzantine Empire 'Greek"???

[Napoleon]

What Made The Byzantine Empire 'Greek"???

Answer = NOTHING

Facts:

01.

Byzantium's origins lay with Roman Emperor Diocletian's decision to split the Roman empire into two administrative parts, being east and west.

02. The 'Byzantine empire' was nothing more then the Eastern Roman empire.

03. The Byzantine empire (eastern Roman empire) was a multinational empire encompassing all the many different ethnicities of the east, initially united under the Latin language.

04. Due to the fact that Greek had been the common language of trade and diplomacy of the eastern Meditteranean as a result of Greek colonisation dating back to 700bc, the Latin language was eventually dropped as the offical language of the empire in favour of Greek as it was still the common language of trade and diplomacy at the time.

05. The use of the Greek language alone did not make the many different ethnic groups of the Byzantine empire ethnically 'Greek' and nor does its use by todays multi-ethnic modern Greek population make them it heirs.

[osiris]

the megali idea made the "byzantine " empire greek. this is such a misunderstood history neo greek politics has totally distorted the study and teaching of this empire. its time western historians took of their hellenic blinkers and tossed out the name byzantine to start with before they embarked upon a study of the last roman empire.

its a totally meaningless term to the people of that empire and it demeans and brands them with a name they never used to describe themselves.

a historians construct like hellenism and as misleading and inapropriate.

[Pelister]

Macedonian Christian Empire - Sveta Gora

Macedonian Christian Empire

The very name 'Byzantium' illustrates the misconceptions to which the Empires (Macedonian Christian Empire - Pravoslavno) has often been subject to, for its inhabitants could hardly have considered the term appropriate for themselves or to their State

Encyclopedia Britania, Macropedia, 15th Edition, Vol. 3, p.547

Now consider this:

According to Historian, A. E Vacalopoulos: (History of Macedonia 1354-1833), p.166-7

The oldest documents found in Sveta Gora (the ones that have survived), are written in the Macedonian language, and nearly all the monasteries (in Mt Athos) are Macedonian

If the language of Christianity in South East Europe was for a thousand years in Macedonian, what does that say about the Empire ??

[TrueMacedonian]

Macedonian Christian Empire



Encyclopedia Britania, Macropedia, 15th Edition, Vol. 3, p.547

Now consider this:

According to Historian, A. E Vacalopoulos: (History of Macedonia 1354-1833), p.166-7



If the language of Christianity in South East Europe was for a thousand years in Macedonian, what does that say about the Empire ??

Awesome stuff Pelister. And a good topic Napolean. Here's more on what modern "greeks" thought about the East Roman empire before their independence http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...read.php?t=767

[TrueMacedonian]

the megali idea made the "byzantine " empire greek. this is such a misunderstood history neo greek politics has totally distorted the study and teaching of this empire. its time western historians took of their hellenic blinkers and tossed out the name byzantine to start with before they embarked upon a study of the last roman empire.

its a totally meaningless term to the people of that empire and it demeans and brands them with a name they never used to describe themselves.

a historians construct like hellenism and as misleading and inapropriate.

Excellent post Osiris. Once again you say it like it is. A good book to read is Roger Crowley's 1453. I recommend for everyone who wants to read the last years of the East Roman empire.

[TerraNova]

Σημαίνει ο Θεός, σημαίνει η γη, σημαίνουν τα 'πουράνια,
Σημαίνει κ' η Aγιά Σοφιά, το Mέγα Mοναστήρι.
Mε τετρακόσια σήμαντρα, κ' εξηνταδυό καμπάνες
Kάθε καμπάνα και Παπάς, κάθε Παπάς και Διάκος,
Nα 'μπουνε 'ς το Xερουβικό και νάβγη ο Bασιλέας.
Περιστερά ' κατέβηκεν από τα μεσ' ουράνια.
- "Πάψετε το Xερουβικό, κι' ας χαμηλώσουν τ' 'Αγια!
" Παπάδες πάρτε τα ιερά, και σεις κεριά σβυστήτε,
" Γιατί είναι θέλημα Θεού η Πόλι να τουρκέψη.
" Mον' στείλτε λόγο 'ς τη Φραγκιά ν' άρθουνε τρία καράβια,
" Tόνα να πάρη το Σταυρό, και τ' άλλο το Bαγγέλιο,
" Tο τρίτο το καλήτερο την 'Αγια Tράπεζά μας,
" Mη μας την πάρουν τα σκυλλιά και μας τη μαγαρίσουν"

H Δέσποινα εταράχτηκε, κ' εδάκρυσαν η 'κόνες.
- "Σώπασε Kυρά Δέσποινα, και σεις 'Kόνες μην κλαίτε
· " Πάλε με χρόνους με καιρούς, πάλε δικά μας θα ναι".


Greek folk song about the fall of Constantinople.

Some highlights..

"get in the "Cherouvikon" and the King to come out,"

"it is God's will, Polis (Constantinople) to be turkish,
send to the land of Franks message ,to come three ships,
one to take the Cross,one the Gospel,
and the third,the best to take the Altar,
not to be taken by the dogs..."

Despoina (Mary) agitated,and the icons shed tears.
"Fall silent Lady Despoina (Mary) ,and icons don't cry,
again ,after times and years ,they will be our's again."

[Soldier of Macedon]

send to the land of Franks message ,to come three ships,
one to take the Cross,one the Gospel,

Who are the Franks? What was their official church and state tongue? I will tell you, the were Western Christians that included Latin, Germanic and Slavic-speaking people among others, and Latin was their official tongue, although the Germanic element dominated in control of the domains.

According to your stupid and tired view, this should make all of them Italians, shouldn't it? If it is good enough to create a 'Greek' overnight simply for belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Church, then it should be good enough for the Western Catholic Church to create overnight 'Italians', shouldn't it? Of course it shouldn't for a logical thinker, but you are far from logical or a thinker, instead, you're just a robot with the memory of a fish and debating levels of a parrot.

[TerraNova]

Who are the Franks? What was their official church and state tongue? I will tell you, the were Western Christians that included Latin, Germanic and Slavic-speaking people among others, and Latin was their official tongue, although the Germanic element dominated in control of the domains.

According to your stupid and tired view, this should make all of them Italians, shouldn't it? If it is good enough to create a 'Greek' overnight simply for belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Church, then it should be good enough for the Western Catholic Church to create overnight 'Italians', shouldn't it? Of course it shouldn't for a logical thinker, but you are far from logical or a thinker, instead, you're just a robot with the memory of a fish and debating levels of a parrot.

Catholics ,western Europeans looked the same to my great grandparents ,as Muslims were ..."Turks".
This does not mean they couldn't distinguish themselves the Greek speaking Orthodox Romji ,from Bulgari,Servi,Alvani/Arvanites .
Period.

The fact remains.
My great grandfathers' folk songs talked about the way "WE" have lost the "City"-Polis (=Constantinopolis-Istanbul)
Like.. "Piran tin Polin,piran tin ,piran ti Saloniki" ="they took the City(=constantinople),they took Saloniki too"

Also their traditions talked about the "marbled King" -Constantine Paleologus,who was turned to Marble by God,and he ll come to life one day to free us,drive out the Turks,and chase them until the "Red Apple-tree" .

You see..."Romeikon" and "Rhomania" were not some alien issues...
The fact that Scolar Greeks and Philhellenes looked upon Antiquity with romanticism ,and thought of Byzantium as backward and barbaric-religious empire, does not mean that the Greek people didn't feel it as their fathers' past.

[TrueMacedonian]

Catholics ,western Europeans looked the same to my great grandparents ,as Muslims were ..."Turks".
This does not mean they couldn't distinguish themselves the Greek speaking Orthodox Romji ,from Bulgari,Servi,Alvani/Arvanites .
Period.

The fact remains.
My great grandfathers' folk songs talked about the way "WE" have lost the "City"-Polis (=Constantinopolis-Istanbul)
Like.. "Piran tin Polin,piran tin ,piran ti Saloniki" ="they took the City(=constantinople),they took Saloniki too"

Also their traditions talked about the "marbled King" -Constantine Paleologus,who was turned to Marble by God,and he ll come to life one day to free us,drive out the Turks,and chase them until the "Red Apple-tree" .

You see..."Romeikon" and "Rhomania" were not some alien issues...
The fact that Scolar Greeks and Philhellenes looked upon Antiquity with romanticism ,and thought of Byzantium as backward and barbaric-religious empire, does not mean that the Greek people didn't feel it as their fathers' past.

Before 1821 modern "greeks" did not think that the East Roman Empire was a "greek" empire in the sense you think, but they thought of it as a Christian Empire.

[Demos]

Before 1821 modern "greeks" did not think that the East Roman Empire was a "greek" empire in the sense you think, but they thought of it as a Christian Empire.

Read Constantine Palaiologus' last speech and come and talk to me...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Read 99% of every other text apart from just Palaiologus' last speech.

Start with this one, with the words of Roman Emperor Justinian the Great, born in Tauresium (modern Taor), in the vicinity of Skopje, capital of the Republic of Macedonia.

http://www.vinland.org/scamp/grove/kreich/chapter9.html

"With regard to heretics, and also Hellenes who try to introduce polytheism, as well as Jews and Samaritans, we have resolved not only to restore the regulations of existing laws and to reinforce them with this present law, but also to enforce other measures which will provide those who share our shining faith with greater security, order and honor"

"one finds persons possessed by the error of the unclean and abominable Hellenes, and performing their practices, and this arouses in God, in his love for mankind, a righteous anger."

Tell me Demos, which one's are your ancestors, the dirty Hellene or the Christian Roman?

Justinian was a good Emperor, don't you think Demos?

[Soldier of Macedon]

The East Romans of old must be turning in their graves when they see a people who call themselves Hellenes with a state flag that has a Christian symbol!!

[makedonin]

My great grandfathers' folk songs talked about the way "WE" have lost the "City"-Polis (=Constantinopolis-Istanbul)
Like.. "Piran tin Polin,piran tin ,piran ti Saloniki" ="they took the City(=constantinople),they took Saloniki too"

Wasn't it that the dirty Slavs changed the name from Tessaloniki to Saloniki ????

By the way, when we are by the folklore. Our Song collectors of the late XVIII and early IX Century have recorded folk songs about the Alexander the Great, Kassander, and many other ancient Instances.

Would you agree that this have the same weight as your folk song about Constantinopolis???

Or you will show your hypocricy again.

[makedonin]

This does not mean they couldn't distinguish themselves the Greek speaking Orthodox Romji ,from Bulgari,Servi,Alvani/Arvanites .
Period.

Did they really??

§ 10. We shall now speak of Greca-land or Greece, which lies south of the Danube. The Proponditis, or sea called Propontis, is _eastward_ of Constantinople; to the north of that city, an arm of the sea issues from the Euxine, and flows _westwards_; to the _north-west_ the mouths of the Danube empty themselves into the south-east part of the Euxine[64].
To the south and west of these mouths are the Maesi, a Greek nation; to the west are the Traci or Thracians, and to the east the Macedonians. To the south, on the southern arm of the Egean sea, are Athens and Corinth, and to the south-west of Corinth is Achaia, near the Mediterranean. All these countries are inhabited by the Greeks. To the west of Achaia is Dalmatia, along the Mediterranean; and on the north side of that sea, to the north of Dalmatia, is Bulgaria and Istria. To the south of Istria is the Adriatic, to the west the Alps, and to the north, that desert which is between Carendan[65] and Bulgaria.

Taken from:

A General History and Collection of Voyages
and Travels, Volume I, by Robert Kerr

Kerr, Robert, 1755-1813

As you can see, for the Westerners who you say knew to distinguish between Servi, Bulgari Romii etc.

They knew who the Thracians, Mesians, Macedonians were, and for them everything on the Balkan south of Danube was Greca land, inhabitet by Greeks.

Why would this be so??? Could they really distinguish???

Or is it cause the Orthodox faith that they were Greeks.

Cause if Thracians are Greeks, than the Macedonians,Serbian and Bulgarians are certainly Greeks too....

[TerraNova]

Wasn't it that the dirty Slavs changed the name from Tessaloniki to Saloniki ????

Not really you call it "Solun" or smthing.

Greeks called it (thes)Saloniki-the original name.

Saloniki it's just abbreviation of Thes-saloniki.
Like Poli is abbreviation of Constantinou-poli.

By the way, when we are by the folklore. Our Song collectors of the late XVIII and early IX Century have recorded folk songs about the Alexander the Great, Kassander, and many other ancient Instances.

Would you agree that this have the same weight as your folk song about Constantinopolis???

Or you will show your hypocricy again.

I know about two songs speaking about Alexander ,who where proven Sofia's fabrications.

If there are more-and maybe there are- it would be interesting ,but just that.

In Greek there was also the "Fyllada tou Megalexandrou" ,a medieval epic story full of mythic incidents.
An illustrated version (really amazing manuscript) is in Venice ,dating in the 14th century.
I believe that collective memory about persons who lived some 2000 years ago ,in folk culture, does not signifies an "ethnic" reference.

I believe that such figures (as Alexander,Ceasar, or Plato ,Epicurus and other Philosophers etc) were to be seen as "ancient conquerers" or "ancient wise men" in a more universal way.

It's not the same case as with Paleologus ,who died in 1453...when folk songs of that age are saved.