A Macedonian Federation - Is it possible ?

[Pelister]

This is what I said in the suggestion box.

"I would suggest that the Macedonian State form a committee dealing with the end of the Bucharest Treaty, and begin lobbying the E.U/NATO and balkan states for "A Federation of the Macedonian State and the provinces..." - where there are two official languages, Macedonian and Greek."

Creating a Committee dealing specifically with this issue - is the first step.

The idea is to adopt a plan - and begin pressing for the Federation of Macedonia, in relation to the end of the Bucharest Treaty.

The Macedonian State, I believe is the perfect platform to begin this as it stands. It's a mutli-ethnic, democratically elected government - and it could gaurantee the rights of ALL minorities, including those who currently have no rights - in Greece and Bulgaria.

The benefits to Europe and the region, in terms of peace would be enormous and intangible.

Two official languages - Macedonian and Greek and a number of fully recognized minority languages - Bulgarian, Albanian, Romi, Vlach, Turkish...etc.

From a logistical point of view, it would follow the Swiss example with some exceptions.

It would require the presence of a neutral foriegn force in Macedonia - until the logistics and composition of the military can be worked out, and would require the presence of French, English, American consultants in just about every area of government - particularly during the transitional phase.

The Capital or seat of government - could be in Thessaloniki or Skopje -or it could alternate between the two, or be moved to a city that is neither of these.

[Blaze]

Dream on!!

Do you really think thats possible in balkan!!??? There is no chance to create a federation with the greeks, they would try to brainwash every squaremeter of macedonia. I would not want to create a federtion with them, it' would be like getting married with psychopat-peder.

I promise you that you cant find more nationalistik people in the world. They live in a "nazi-gremany like" country. The greeks invented this and that.. and so on. They think that they are a pure goodsent race from aincient times. Soon they will say that even Jesus was greek!!

[Risto the Great]

Stranger things have happened.
And I am sure many Macedonians actually believe getting into the EU will achieve something like this. I don't agree this will happen at all.

But we are talking about a federation with Greece here. And I cannot see that happen whilst they still misguidedly feel they can claim cultural superiority. Let us not forget how quickly they would become a minority in such a federation. Can't see it! But nice to be thinking outside the square.

[Coolski]

I don't think it's as unrealistic as it may seem at first. It's an interesting idea. From what I understood from the post, the suggestion is to have a sovereign Macedonian state by virtue of the illegality of the treaty of Bucharest, and create a federative state of Macedonia, where each ethnic group is given the freedom to be who they are and have ethnic minority rights.

This would mean that official languages are used in particular federative states of Macedonia where a particular group forms a substantial minority or majority. Eg. Macedonian and Greek would be in official use in Egejska, Bulgarian and Macedonian in Pirinska, and Macedonian in Vardarska, along with all local linguistic rights (on a local council level) which already exist, eg. Albanski, Vlaški, Turski, etc.

The problem would lie in:

1. the ability to convince the many prosfygi and grkomani in Greece that it is a stable option after the years of crap they have been fed by the government of the Hellenic Republic.
2. the ability to ensure that various ethnic groups do not try to overpower other ethnic groups through ethnographic migration.
3. the ability to ensure that various ethnic groups (currently fighting against each other on historical and diplomatic levels) can actually get along on a social and state level.
4. Greece and Bulgaria's clear displeasure in all this lol.. They will have to give up Egejska and Pirinska Makedonija with no compensation to them. They'll be out for blood!

It is a massive task that would take decades upon decades of development, but as mentioned, it's the Balkans anything is possible!

[Coolski]

Soon they will say that even Jesus was greek!!

um.... he was vre, don't u know he was greek orthodox?

[Giorikas]

I don't think it's as unrealistic as it may seem at first. It's an interesting idea. From what I understood from the post, the suggestion is to have a sovereign Macedonian state by virtue of the illegality of the treaty of Bucharest, and create a federative state of Macedonia, where each ethnic group is given the freedom to be who they are and have ethnic minority rights.

This would mean that official languages are used in particular federative states of Macedonia where a particular group forms a substantial minority or majority. Eg. Macedonian and Greek would be in official use in Egejska, Bulgarian and Macedonian in Pirinska, and Macedonian in Vardarska, along with all local linguistic rights (on a local council level) which already exist, eg. Albanski, Vlaški, Turski, etc.

The problem would lie in:

1. the ability to convince the many prosfygi and grkomani in Greece that it is a stable option after the years of crap they have been fed by the government of the Hellenic Republic.
2. the ability to ensure that various ethnic groups do not try to overpower other ethnic groups through ethnographic migration.
3. the ability to ensure that various ethnic groups (currently fighting against each other on historical and diplomatic levels) can actually get along on a social and state level.
4. Greece and Bulgaria's clear displeasure in all this lol.. They will have to give up Egejska and Pirinska Makedonija with no compensation to them. They'll be out for blood!

It is a massive task that would take decades upon decades of development, but as mentioned, it's the Balkans anything is possible!

Hello Coolski,

It's ehm, interesting all this 'out of the box thinking'. There is surely no lack of imagination here.

What would be the advantage exactly for countries as Greece and Bulgaria?

Giorikas

[Coolski]

Exactly. There would be no advantage whatsoever, which is the reason why there is no way these two governments will willingly allow it to happen, which is why it is such an out-of-reach plan.

On the other hand, i'd dare say that there was no advantage to the Macedonian people that they were split between three different countries and denied human rights in each of these countries, with one exception after 30 years, in Vardarska Makedonija currently known as the Republic of Macedonia.

Perhaps there is no advantage to Greece and Bulgaria doing this, but I would argue that they have been living advantageously since 1913, occupying and dominating Macedonian territories and 90 years of pushing their own agenda on the Macedonian people.

Of course you are right in saying that this is all imaginative, but if you give this more thought beyond your nationalistic greek tendencies, perhaps you would see that in such a federation where all human beings are treated as humans, and not second class citizens, it could be THE factor of stability and prosperity in the Balkans. The interesting part about all this is that for you to understand this concept you need to detach yourself from the idea that you have a god given right to think that you are better than others and subject them to your influence. If that was the case, we wouldn't have been in this mess to begin with!

[Risto the Great]

Perhaps there is no advantage to Greece and Bulgaria doing this, but I would argue that they have been living advantageously since 1913, occupying and dominating Macedonian territories and 90 years of pushing their own agenda on the Macedonian people.

My thoughts exactly.

[Pelister]

Exactly. There would be no advantage whatsoever, which is the reason why there is no way these two governments will willingly allow it to happen, which is why it is such an out-of-reach plan.

On the other hand, i'd dare say that there was no advantage to the Macedonian people that they were split between three different countries and denied human rights in each of these countries, with one exception after 30 years, in Vardarska Makedonija currently known as the Republic of Macedonia.

Perhaps there is no advantage to Greece and Bulgaria doing this, but I would argue that they have been living advantageously since 1913, occupying and dominating Macedonian territories and 90 years of pushing their own agenda on the Macedonian people.

Of course you are right in saying that this is all imaginative, but if you give this more thought beyond your nationalistic greek tendencies, perhaps you would see that in such a federation where all human beings are treated as humans, and not second class citizens, it could be THE factor of stability and prosperity in the Balkans. The interesting part about all this is that for you to understand this concept you need to detach yourself from the idea that you have a god given right to think that you are better than others and subject them to your influence. If that was the case, we wouldn't have been in this mess to begin with!

I wouldn't be so sure about the "no advantage" ...

The idea - at least in the initial stages is not to convince Greece of anything - the strategy is not to deal with Greece - rather to allow the rest of the E.U to get wind of the plan.

The idea is to form a committee, with the purpose of engaging the Europeans and Americans, I stress not the Greeks. The advantages of this are enormous.

The Greeks will never go for it - unless they are pressured from outside, so there was never going to be any point "convincing" them of anything.

The idea is not far fetched - and there are a long list of merits to the idea that can be drawn on, including the example of Switzerland in Europe.

This is a genuine attempt to bring lasting peace and stability to the region, and Europe. I think its the last card to be played - before we can see real long term peace in the region.

I strongly agree with a point you made Coolski. Having a place where ALL rights are respected is THE only factor that needs to be considered seriously. On this basis alone - will it stand or fall, so I think its an inspired model.

[Pelister]

The other advantage of proposing a Macedonian federation is that it makes us rethink the past - especially what life has been like for Macedonians under colonial rule.

But based on the Swiss model - I can't see much wrong with it.

[Giorikas]

Exactly. There would be no advantage whatsoever, which is the reason why there is no way these two governments will willingly allow it to happen, which is why it is such an out-of-reach plan.

On the other hand, i'd dare say that there was no advantage to the Macedonian people that they were split between three different countries and denied human rights in each of these countries, with one exception after 30 years, in Vardarska Makedonija currently known as the Republic of Macedonia.

Perhaps there is no advantage to Greece and Bulgaria doing this, but I would argue that they have been living advantageously since 1913, occupying and dominating Macedonian territories and 90 years of pushing their own agenda on the Macedonian people.

Of course you are right in saying that this is all imaginative, but if you give this more thought beyond your nationalistic greek tendencies, perhaps you would see that in such a federation where all human beings are treated as humans, and not second class citizens, it could be THE factor of stability and prosperity in the Balkans. The interesting part about all this is that for you to understand this concept you need to detach yourself from the idea that you have a god given right to think that you are better than others and subject them to your influence. If that was the case, we wouldn't have been in this mess to begin with!

Hello Coolski,

Needless to say, I don't feel better than others, and I don't believe that Greeks in general feel better then others. Where did you get that idea, seriously ?
I just think that one should look at these things in a realistic way, and realistically this plan has zero chances of success. Greece wants stability in Macedonia, but not in that way. Also Greece can not be held responsible for the instability in Macedonia, even though I admit that Macedonia not having received an invitation to join NATO did not help either. Macedonia in any case chose to opt for stability as the US wanted, that's to say the Ohrid accord.

Look at this from this way. If Albania would tell Macedonia (in fact this is not as unrealistic as the example given in this thread), 'guys let us have a chunk of Macedonia of approximately 1 third of the country from Tetovo up to God knows where, to be in federation with Kosovo and Albania' (for the sake of stability), you would probably not seriously discuss that either.

As for not treating minorities as second class citizens, that sounds perfectly fine to me. I agree. Greece should immediately stop doing that.

Giorikas