bored with giorikas

[osiris]

why do we put up with pompous greeks like goirikas, he has just gone over the same old territory that we have visited on maknews a million times. apparently now deyan bores him too , well giorikas, why dont you find a greek forum where your nonsense and idiotic perspective are the norm.

the fact is you bore most of us on here, so the feeling is mutual.

[makedonin]

do you bother reading his posts.

you can't expect from any Greek to say anything than what he is thought in the school. it is the standard that they are set up on.

I am to live and see Greek as well Bulgarian or Serb to say something different on Macedonia as that what they are thought in school, even though their history views are mostly contradicting each other to say at best.

es for example Macedonia is:

- 2400 Greek
- Old Serbia
- Great Bulgaria

[Giorikas]

Hey Makedonin, what if I told you that I didn't go to school in Greece ... neither in Serbia or Bulgaria. Please point out my contradictions, I will be more then happy to discuss them with you.

Giorikas

[makedonin]

Hey Makedonin, what if I told you that I didn't go to school in Greece ... neither in Serbia or Bulgaria. Please point out my contradictions, I will be more then happy to discuss them with you.

Giorikas

can you prove it? havent you understand, that I don't bother reading your posts?

By the way, the History about Maceonia teached in Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia contradicts each other! it comes out of the interest in the region.

any way I don't have neither interest nor time to spin pointless discussions.

what would be the goal of such discussion anyways? will it change something in reality?

I really doupt that.

[Giorikas]

No I can't prove it. How do you suggest I'd do that? You'll have to take my word for it. I have introduced myself though and mentioned that I am from outside of Greece. If I lie, at least I'm consistent.
Please be consistant too. You can't bother reading my posts but you are sure that I'm the result of Greek education, and even contradict myself
That might be possible though, it happens sometimes to all of us I guess, but if you'd care to point the contradictions out to me, then I could explain myself, and same time you back up your statements.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Giorikas

[makedonin]

You can't bother reading my posts but you are sure that I'm the result of Greek education, and even contradict myself
Giorikas

looks like you read posts, and than again do not understan what it says.

a little help for you:

first:
I can't know if you are from greece and have greek education, but even if you are from out side of greece there are plenty greek schools abroad where you could have get the greek view of history which most if not every greek does.

and since you can't prove it other wise, it is waste of time.

second:

I said that:

the History about Maceonia teached in Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia contradicts each other! it comes out of the interest in the region.

and

as that what they are thought in school, even though their history views are mostly contradicting each other to say at best.

es for example Macedonia is:

- 2400 Greek
- Old Serbia
- Great Bulgaria

I am saying that the History of Greeks Bulgarians and Serbs which they are thought of is contradicting.

More simpler, I don't say you are contradicting your self, since I don't read your posts. I am saying that the History thought in those countries is contradiction to one another.

katalaveni ??? more simpler and clearer can't be put

Thanx for stealing my 2 minutes of valuable life for clarifying this to you

[Giorikas]

1) I stand corrected on the contradiction part, you're right. My bad.

2) To be perfectly clear, I have never attended any Greek school. It is a waste of time to prove anything indeed.
Seriously, I read plenty of stuff, especially testemonies of members here of what happened to their relatives before for example in Greece that can neither be proven to me. But we have to give each other the benefit of the doubt here sometimes, even if we do not necessarily agree with each other on other things. I for one will not dismiss those stories, actually I believe that they are true in this particular case. (just an example)

3) I agree that education most of the countries in the Balkans is not objective and neutral. (even if I have not read or seen any Bulgarian or Serbian) If it is true that books with maps of greater Macedonia exist, explaining that these are occupied territories and that you guys are direct descendants from ancient Macedonians (with which I do not agree), then we can easily add yours to that.

I appreciate the 2 minutes hombre.

Giorikas

[makedonin]

1)that you guys are direct descendants from ancient Macedonians (with which I do not agree),

2) then we can easily add yours to that.


Giorikas

1) it does not matter. who is direct this days, Greeks perhaps? or Bulgarians ? or Serbs ? It is stupid idea any ways. The Identity does not stop being formed somewhere in time, it is in constant motion as everything else. The Ancient had one Idea of what some Ethnic name and Identity means, we have other. We live though centuries when not millenia apart, it is only natural.

2) of course why not, Macedonians have their good and bad Stories in the History Science. Question is, if you see the good and bad equal as we are seeing them.

Fact is, that no one have top quality knoledge of History. History is redudant and subject of many speculations on top of some events.

thats why we all agree that we disagree...

[Giorikas]

Agreed then

[Six Guns]

1) I stand corrected on the contradiction part, you're right. My bad.

2) To be perfectly clear, I have never attended any Greek school. It is a waste of time to prove anything indeed.
Seriously, I read plenty of stuff, especially testemonies of members here of what happened to their relatives before for example in Greece that can neither be proven to me. But we have to give each other the benefit of the doubt here sometimes, even if we do not necessarily agree with each other on other things. I for one will not dismiss those stories, actually I believe that they are true in this particular case. (just an example)

3) I agree that education most of the countries in the Balkans is not objective and neutral. (even if I have not read or seen any Bulgarian or Serbian) If it is true that books with maps of greater Macedonia exist, explaining that these are occupied territories and that you guys are direct descendants from ancient Macedonians (with which I do not agree), then we can easily add yours to that.

I appreciate the 2 minutes hombre.

Giorikas

1) It's ok we all make mistakes.

2) You contradict yourself here, first you talk about the Macedonians abuse in Greece and that this cannot be proven to you, and then you tell us that you believe these stories.

Firstly the Greek government had, which I am sure that if you have an open mind you will see this, had adopted a similar policy to the White Australian policy in terms of trying to wipe out a race. I must admit the aggressive tactics that the Greek government used has worked in most area in trying to Hellenize the Macedonian population in Aegean Macedonia. Families were in fear of losing everything and their children growing up as outcasts, so basically some had no choice e.g. try and live a normal life, or be treated like animals for speaking in their native tongue! I am sure I have made myself clear in what I am saying here.

3) We have always been taught the truth in where our borders of Macedonia begin and end. Like if I was to ask some Greek kids in Greece where there borders end, I am sure some kids will reply to me, Constantinople.

[Giorikas]

1) I am sure that the Greek government did not like the idea of a Slavic minority (I clarify: Macedonian or Bulgarian) in Greece. This regardless of who they were. It was probably the idea that Slavophones were associated with communism, with the 'other side' outside of western ideological fence of that time. I am sure that they would have preferred all of them to be outside of Greek borders, like the US preferred Japanese and German civilians behind fences in the US during WW II. For the record, I do not agree with making any minority population responsible for things that they could not have taken responibility for. That they threw communists out (regarldless of language) is ok for me though.

2) I am sure that things happened that should not have happened, without having first hand experience hearing this from anyone verbally. it can not be so that all I hear is made up.
3) I do not know to which extent this happened. I do not know what roughly the population was of this Macedonian population lets's say around 1900 1930 1950 and now was. I am for my part not convinced that these were all Macedonians, but that is irrelevant for now. I also don't know exactly what happened, but I figure that a lot (that did not decide to go through life as Greeks) were expelled. But it's vague and there are a lot of stories contradict each other. These stories with communists, abductions of children, persons being expelled being communists especially.
But I would like to hear from you (even if it is for me to be able to dispute it if I feel it needs to be disputed) what numbers we are talking about who were killed/expelled/abducted/retreated with communists/remained. From a neutral source of course.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I will dispute a difference of 1000 persons but in my opinion it can not be all of the above to the same extent. An expelled person can not be killed by Greeks. A large underground Macedonian community can not have been expelled.
Mr. Risto the Great promised to provide me these figures once he finds the time and as expert I suppose that should't take long.
All above things are possible same time but there must be general tendance, a policy behind it. That's also what I hear here. It was a systematic policy. So how did they carry it out?

Oh, and for the rest, I can not speak for each child that came out of the Greek educational system but I would be very surprised to hear that. Anyway it's not so relevant what they say, but what they have been tought and Greeks have not been taught this.
Ask a child from the Turkish minority in Greece and you might get different answers then somebody with a Greek identity
Is it true true that the educational system in Macedonia had books showing larger Macedonia maps with the occupies territories and claims of your direct bloodline with ancient Macedonians or not?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Is it true true that the educational system in Macedonia had books showing larger Macedonia maps with the occupies territories and claims of your direct bloodline with ancient Macedonians or not?

Maps where Macedonians have historically lived, sure I would agree with that. Are you telling me Greeks don't have books with half of Turkey in its imaginary greater borders?

As for "direct" bloodlines to the ancients, show me the book.

[Six Guns]

Oh, and for the rest, I can not speak for each child that came out of the Greek educational system but I would be very surprised to hear that. Anyway it's not so relevant what they say, but what they have been tought and Greeks have not been taught this.
Ask a child from the Turkish minority in Greece and you might get different answers then somebody with a Greek identity
Is it true true that the educational system in Macedonia had books showing larger Macedonia maps with the occupies territories and claims of your direct bloodline with ancient Macedonians or not?

Here is what comes out of the Greek educational system. Greeks are being taught many things you do not know or wish not to believe.

Do not hate, as like love, it makes you blind.

The following is a comment about a study done in Greek schools and the text books used to teach the kids of today in Greece.


(5) Both sets of books lack a clear definition of the limits of the region of South-Eastern Europe. The Greek schoolbooks, for instance, present some ambiguity as to the limits of Europe. For example, the lists of European countries of the schoolbooks of the first and the second classes of the Gymnasium (p. 129 and p. 33 respectively) include Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, whilst the equivalent list of the sixth class of the primary school (p. 53) does not. To make the ambiguity even worse, the ‘Map of Europe’ (map 33.6 on p. 129) does not show these countries, although the list next to it refers to them.
Further, the Republic of Macedonia is referred to as (F.Y.R.O.M.) in the Gymnasium books, but it is referred to as ‘Skopia’ (with the name of its capital) in the sixth class book (pp. 52–53). Each Greek author has apparently his own perception of the limits of Europe. A variability of views is unavoidable and acceptable by professional geographers, but, if not adequately analysed and discussed, it may seed confusion in students’ perception of the region.



The book intended for the second class of the Greek Gymnasium
(MNERA,1999) introduces some further notions of cartography and subsequently follows its main subject, which is the geography of Europe. The book is rich in maps and illustrations and allows the student to understand the most important facets of the physical and human geography of Europe. It is worth noting that Cyprus is presented in three pages, but neighbouring Turkey is left almost untouched and Greece’s neighbours (‘The Balkan Countries’) are presented in only four pages (in nine paragraphs, pp. 55–58). Should neighbouring countries occupy a greater portion of the book than more remote countries, regardless of their demographic, economic or other features of importance?
This is an open question.



References
Catling, S. (1999) Issues for research in UK primary geography. International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 8 (1), 60–65. Kent, A. (1999) Image and reality – how do others see us? International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 8 (2), 103–7. Kent, A. (2000) Geography’s changing image and status – some international perspectives. International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 9 (2), 157–9.
MECC (1998) Voyage to our Earth: Geography for the 1st Class of Gymnasium. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC (1999) Geography of Cyprus: 3rd Class of Gymnasium. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC(2000) Voyage to Europe: 2nd Class of Gymnasium. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC (2001a) I Know my Environment: Geography of the 3rd Class of Elementary School. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC (2001b) I Know my Environment: Geography of the 4th Class of Elementary School. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC (2001c) I Know the World: Europe and Middle East. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC(2001d) I Know the World: Africa, America, Asia, Oceania. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MNERA (1999) Geography – 2nd Class of Gymnasium. Athens: Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs, Organisation for the Publication of Didactic Books.
MNERA (2001) Geography – 1st Class of Gymnasium. Athens: Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs, Organisation for the Publication of Didactic Books.
MNERA(2002) Our Earth – Geography of the 6th Class. Athens: Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs, Organisation for the Publication of Didactic Books.
Papadimitriou, F. and Probald, F. (2000) Landscapes, land degradation and aridification in geographical education: The case of Hungary. International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 9 (4), 296–304.
Reinfried, S. (2001) Ready for the twenty-first century? The impact of curriculum reform on geography education in upper secondary schools in Switzerland. International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 10 (4), 411–28.


For anyone who would like to read the study

http://www.multilingual-matters.net/irgee/013/0090/irgee0130090.pdf

[Giorikas]

Is it true true that the educational system in Macedonia had books showing larger Macedonia maps with the occupies territories and claims of your direct bloodline with ancient Macedonians or not?

Maps where Macedonians have historically lived, sure I would agree with that. Are you telling me Greeks don't have books with half of Turkey in its imaginary greater borders?

As for "direct" bloodlines to the ancients, show me the book.

Just asking about the bloodlines. These things are being said. If maps are presented as occupied territories, then it is bad. If maps are presented indicating where those Greeks/Macedonians have lived in respectively Turkey/Greece, then it is ok.

[Giorikas]

Here is what comes out of the Greek educational system. Greeks are being taught many things you do not know or wish not to believe.

Do not hate, as like love, it makes you blind.

The following is a comment about a study done in Greek schools and the text books used to teach the kids of today in Greece.


(5) Both sets of books lack a clear definition of the limits of the region of South-Eastern Europe. The Greek schoolbooks, for instance, present some ambiguity as to the limits of Europe. For example, the lists of European countries of the schoolbooks of the first and the second classes of the Gymnasium (p. 129 and p. 33 respectively) include Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, whilst the equivalent list of the sixth class of the primary school (p. 53) does not. To make the ambiguity even worse, the ‘Map of Europe’ (map 33.6 on p. 129) does not show these countries, although the list next to it refers to them.
Further, the Republic of Macedonia is referred to as (F.Y.R.O.M.) in the Gymnasium books, but it is referred to as ‘Skopia’ (with the name of its capital) in the sixth class book (pp. 52–53). Each Greek author has apparently his own perception of the limits of Europe. A variability of views is unavoidable and acceptable by professional geographers, but, if not adequately analysed and discussed, it may seed confusion in students’ perception of the region.



The book intended for the second class of the Greek Gymnasium
(MNERA,1999) introduces some further notions of cartography and subsequently follows its main subject, which is the geography of Europe. The book is rich in maps and illustrations and allows the student to understand the most important facets of the physical and human geography of Europe. It is worth noting that Cyprus is presented in three pages, but neighbouring Turkey is left almost untouched and Greece’s neighbours (‘The Balkan Countries’) are presented in only four pages (in nine paragraphs, pp. 55–58). Should neighbouring countries occupy a greater portion of the book than more remote countries, regardless of their demographic, economic or other features of importance?
This is an open question.



References
Catling, S. (1999) Issues for research in UK primary geography. International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 8 (1), 60–65. Kent, A. (1999) Image and reality – how do others see us? International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 8 (2), 103–7. Kent, A. (2000) Geography’s changing image and status – some international perspectives. International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 9 (2), 157–9.
MECC (1998) Voyage to our Earth: Geography for the 1st Class of Gymnasium. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC (1999) Geography of Cyprus: 3rd Class of Gymnasium. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC(2000) Voyage to Europe: 2nd Class of Gymnasium. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC (2001a) I Know my Environment: Geography of the 3rd Class of Elementary School. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC (2001b) I Know my Environment: Geography of the 4th Class of Elementary School. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC (2001c) I Know the World: Europe and Middle East. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MECC(2001d) I Know the World: Africa, America, Asia, Oceania. Nicosia: Ministry of Education and Culture of Cyprus.
MNERA (1999) Geography – 2nd Class of Gymnasium. Athens: Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs, Organisation for the Publication of Didactic Books.
MNERA (2001) Geography – 1st Class of Gymnasium. Athens: Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs, Organisation for the Publication of Didactic Books.
MNERA(2002) Our Earth – Geography of the 6th Class. Athens: Ministry of National Education and Religious Affairs, Organisation for the Publication of Didactic Books.
Papadimitriou, F. and Probald, F. (2000) Landscapes, land degradation and aridification in geographical education: The case of Hungary. International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 9 (4), 296–304.
Reinfried, S. (2001) Ready for the twenty-first century? The impact of curriculum reform on geography education in upper secondary schools in Switzerland. International Research in Geographical and Environmental Education 10 (4), 411–28.


For anyone who would like to read the study

http://www.multilingual-matters.net/...gee0130090.pdf

Well, like it or not, for Greece, the end-status of Macedonia is not clear. FYROM is a temporary name that Greece uses, and from Greek perspective, at the end of the road, Macedonia is not going to be the name of your country.
So, in line with that, Macedonia will be referred to in those books as anything else then Macedonia, for example, FYROM. I wouldn't call it hate from Greek side, and since your country has agreed (even if they agreed only after pressure) to negotiate the name, Greece does considers naming you FYROM ligitimate.
That is the status still, regardless of the fact that you do not want to change the name Macedonia.
I am not giving an opinion here, just pointing out that this is a logical consequence of what both countries agreed to from Greek point of view.