Turkey and Macedonia symbol

[Atesh]

The Turkey's symbol and the Macedonian symbol side-to-side.



16 Ray and 16 stars for Turkey. 16 Ray for Macedonia.

[Frank]

stunning side by side

[Onur]

This is the symbol of our presidency.

16 stars represents the great Turkic states and empires in history and the sun like rays at the middle represents republic of Turkey.

[Risto the Great]

What do you mean by Turkic States Onur?

[Atesh]

The "GREAT HUN EMPIRE" - 204 B.C - 216 A.D

The "WESTERN HUN EMPIRE" - 48 - 216 A.D

The "EUROPEAN HUN EMPIRE" - 275 - 454 A.D

The "WHITE HUN EMPIRE" - 420 - 552 A.D

The "GOKTURK EMPIRE" - 552 - 743 A.D

The "AVAR EMPIRE" - 562 - 796 A.D

The "HAZAR EMPIRE" - 602 - 1016 A.D

The "UYGUR EMPIRE" - 740 - 1335 A.D

The "KARAHAN" - 932 - 1212 A.D

The "GAZNELI EMPIRE" - 962 - 1183 A.D

The "SELCUK EMPIRE" - 1040 - 1157 A.D

The "HARZEMSHAH" - 1077 - 1231 A.D

The "GOLDEN HORDE" - 1224 - 1502 A.D

The "EMPIRE OF TIMUR KHAN" - 1369 - 1501 A.D

The "EMPIRE OF BABUR" - 1526 - 1858 A.D

The "OTTOMAN EMPIRE " - 1299 - 1922 A.D

[Onur]

What do you mean by Turkic States Onur?

Found the list on web. 16 Turkic states which represented on the seal;

The Great Hun Empire (Büyük Hün İmparatorluğu); 204 BC - 216 AD
The Western Hun Empire (Batı Hün İmparatorluğu); 48 - 216 AD
The European Hun Empire (Avrupa Hün İmparatorluğu); 375 - 454
The White Hun Empire (Ak Hün İmparatorluğu); 420 - 552
The Gokturk Empire (Göktürk İmparatorluğu); 552 - 743
The Avar Empire (Avar İmparatorluğu); 562 - 796
The Khazar Empire (Hazar İmparatorluğu); 602 - 1016
The Uyghur Khaganate (Uygur Devleti); 740 - 1335
The Kara-Khanid Khanate (Karahanlılar); 932 - 1212
The Ghaznavid Empire (Gazneliler); 962 - 1183
The Great Seljuq Empire (Büyük Selçuk İmparatorluğu); 1040 - 1157
The Khwarezmian Empire (Harzemşahlar); 1077 - 1231
The Golden Horde (Altınordu Devleti); 1224 - 1502
The Timurid Empire (Büyük Timur İmparatorluğu); 1369 - 1501
The Mughal Empire (Babür İmparatorluğu); 1526 - 1858
The Ottoman Empire (Osmanlı İmparatorluğu); 1299 - 1922

[George S.]

16 stars are you sure the greeeks won't object to that.They have a copyright on evrything as it's all greek.You know i'm just kidding.
I think with friendship like that both countries can tell the eu or nato to fuck off as macedonia can find it's own friends not just beimg forced into organizations of ill repute such as eu.It's a shining beacon of friendship.We need a real"komshia" & the turks are our real friends.Maybe Turkey can tell Macedonia to stop negotiating on it's name before it's too late.:rmacedonia:rmacedonia:rmacedonia

[Atesh]

I think that this symbol was influenced by the Macedonian sun ... 'cause this symbol was on the Turkish flag in 1922 (before the Republic) and Ataturk was born in Macedonia so I don't know.

[Onur]

I think that this symbol was influenced by the Macedonian sun ... 'cause this symbol was on the Turkish flag in 1922 (before the Republic) and Ataturk was born in Macedonia so I don't know.

Ohh yes.. Ataturk designed this 16 star&ray seal of presidency. Ofc he surely knew the seal of Macedonia, so it`s highly possible that he is influenced from Macedonia`s seal while he designed our presidential one.

[Atesh]

Yes, the Macedonian Sun is an old Alexander symbol (before the Ottoman Empire).

[Soldier of Macedon]

What an interesting discussion.

Is there anything to indicate a direct connection between the 16-ray Turkish symbol and Macedonia? Do we know why Mustafa Kemal created the symbol in such a manner? What gave him the idea of the 16 Turkic states? I notice the Turkic Bulgars are not included, yet the Mongol Mughals are?

[Onur]

Is there anything to indicate a direct connection between the 16-ray Turkish symbol and Macedonia? Do we know why Mustafa Kemal created the symbol in such a manner? What gave him the idea of the 16 Turkic states?

I notice the Turkic Bulgars are not included, yet the Mongol Mughals are?

I dont know what was the idea behind this symbol if Ataturk ever explained it why he drew it like that but probably he drew 16 stars cuz these states/empires are the biggest ones but ofc these are not all of Turkic states.

Mughals are not only Mongols. Most of them was Turkic people. The founder of Mughal empire in India, Babur wrote in his autobiography that his fatherline comes from Timur of Timurid empire, motherline from Genghis Khan.

Babur`s mothertongue was Turkic(he wrote that himself as "Turki") and the language of the court in Mughal empire was Turkic again. Babur wrote his own autobiography and he wrote in Turkic in chagatay dialect. I think it was written in early 16th century. It`s considered as masterpiece for Turkish linguists cuz chagatay dialect was an elegant form of Turkic for literature in that era.

Also Mughals later influenced by Persian and Indian culture too and then they have reached so high prosperity and intellectual level. You know, they have built Taj Mahal in India, considered as one of world`s most beautiful building ever.


As for the Bulgars, it`s better that way since we don't need a diplomatic crises with current Bulgarians cuz these 16 states listed in everywhere and i believe Bulgars would create immense uproar about that Also we don't need them to list either since Turkic history is greater enough without even mentioning Bulgars.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Mughals are not only Mongols. Most of them was Turkic people. The founder of Mughal empire in India, Babur wrote in his autobiography that his fatherline comes from Timur of Timurid empire, motherline from Genghis Khan. Babur`s mothertongue was Turkic(he wrote that himself as "Turki")..........

Thanks Onur, I wasn't aware of that. Is there an english translation of his autobiography?

........the language of the court in Mughal empire was Turkic again.

Are you sure about that? I've read that the language of the Mughal court was Persian, as the Mongols that conquered India became Islamised through Iranian influence.

As for the Bulgars, it`s better that way since we don't need a diplomatic crises with current Bulgarians cuz these 16 states listed in everywhere and i believe Bulgars would create immense uproar about that Also we don't need them to list either since Turkic history is greater enough without even mentioning Bulgars.

Understood, personally, I see no need to for them to be excluded when the Avars (who were probably more mixed with Iranic peoples) are mentioned.

[Onur]

Thanks Onur, I wasn't aware of that. Is there an english translation of his autobiography?

I found an old edition of it in archive.org;

Volume I;

http://www.archive.org/download/baburnamainengli01babuuoft/baburnamainengli01babuuoft.pdf

Volume II;

http://www.archive.org/download/baburnamainengli02babuuoft/baburnamainengli02babuuoft.pdf

Are you sure about that? I've read that the language of the Mughal court was Persian, as the Mongols that conquered India became Islamised through Iranian influence.

Maybe they have been highly influenced by Persians at later times. I don't know whole Mughal history but i am sure that the founder ruler was a Turk and his mothertongue was Turkic as he wrote himself in his autobiography. He also knew Persian language tough and he later learned sanskrit.

Also, Babur and his followers was already muslims b4 they took control of India since most of the Turks around today`s Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan was already islamized under Iranian influence after 10th century, even b4 the ones in Anatolia. They ruled India for so long `till British occupies it in 19th century. Then you know, Brits somehow managed to create religious conflict between them and muslim Indians formed new country named Pakistan.