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Old 12-08-2008, 04:10 PM   #1
Daskalot
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Exclamation Macedonians noted in the Gesta Hungarorum, 12th century!

Here is a short extract from Wikipedia describing this source:
Quote:
Gesta Hungarorum (Latin for The Deeds of the Hungarians), is a record of early Hungarian history written by an unknown author, who is often cited simply as Anonymous. He describes himself as a "faithful servant of King Bela", although there are more than one King Bela who could be meant, most probable is King Bela III (1172-1196). Gesta Hungarorum is preserved in a manuscript from circa 1200.

The chronicle was written as a literary work based on similar western chronicles which were then fashionable. The author defines all local ruling families of the Kingdom of Hungary as descendants of the ruling Árpáds or at least of their allies, and aims to glorify the merits of the Árpáds with respect to the Magyar occupation of the Transylvanian Carpathian basin in the tenth century.
The first page of the book:


Here is the Latin version of were the Macedonians are noted:
Quote:
De ciuibus bulgarorum et macedonum

Transactis quibusdam diebus zuard et cadusa cum omni exercitu suo, eleuatis uexillis signiferis aquam danubij transnauigauerunt, et castrum borons ceperunt, deinde ad castrum scereducy iuerunt. Audientes hoc ciues bulgarorum et macedonum, tumerunt ualde a facie eorum. Tunc omnes incole illius miserunt nuntios suos cum donarris multis, ut terram sibi subiugarent, et filios suos in obsides traderunt. Zuard et cadusa paci fauentes et dona et obsides eorum accipientes eos quasi suum proprium populum in pace dimisserunt. Ipsi uero ceperunt ecuitare ultra portam Wacil, et castrum philippi regis ceperunt, deinde totam terram usque ad cleopatram ciuitatem sibi subiugauerunt. Et sub potestate sua habuerunt totam terram a ciuitate durasu usque ad terram rachy. Et zuardu in eadem terra duxit sibi uxorem, et populus ille qui nunc dicitur sobamogera, mortuo duce zuard in grecia remansit. Et ideo dictus est soba secundum grecos id est stultus populus, quia mortuo domino suo uiam non dilexit redire ad patriam suam.
and the Hungarian version of were the Macedonians are noted:
Quote:
A BOLGÁROK ÉS MACEDÓNOK NÉPEI

Néhány napra rá Szovárd meg Kadocsa egész seregükkel együtt, magasra tartva jellel megjegyzett zászlójukat, átkeltek a Duna vizén, és elfoglalták Barancs várát, majd meg Szeredüc-vár alá vonultak. Mikor a bolgárok és macedónok népei ezt meghallották, erősen megijedtek tőlük. Erre annak a földnek lakosai mindvalahányan elküldötték követeiket sok ajándékkal, hogy a földet hódolva felajánlják, és fiaikat kezesül átszolgáltassák nekik. Szovárd meg Kadocsa békére készen mind az ajándékokat, mind a kezeseket elfogadták, s őket, mint a saját népüket, békében elbocsátották. Maguk pedig továbblovagoltak túl a Vaszil-kapun. Fülöp király várát bevették, majd Kleopátra városáig az egész földet meghódították, s hatalmuk alatt tartottak mindent Durazzó városától egészen Rácföldig. Szovárd ugyanezen a földön vett magának feleséget, és az a nép, melyet most Csaba-magyarjának mondanak, Szovárd vezér halála után Görögországban maradt. Mégpedig a görögök szerint azért mondták csobának, azaz ostoba népnek, mivel urának halála után nem volt kedve útra kelni, hogy hazájába visszatérjen.
and finally the English version of were the Macedonians are noted:
Quote:
Of the countrymen [civibus] of the Bulgarians and Macedonians

Some days later, Zuard and Cadusa with their whole army, emblazoned standards aloft, crossed the water of the Danube and captured Barancs [Borons] castle, after which they went to the castle of Scereducy. Hearing this, the countrymen of the Bulgarians and Macedonians feared greatly before them. Then all the inhabitants of
that land sent their envoys with many gifts, to surrender the land to them and hand over their sons as hostages. Zuard and Cadusa, inclining to peace and taking their gifts and hostages, left them in peace, as if they were their own people, and riding beyond
the Wacil Gate [ultra portam Wacil], they took the castle of King Philip, then they conquered the whole land up to the city of Cleopatra [ad Cleopatram civitatem], and they had in their power the whole land from the city of Durazzo [Durasu] to the land of Rác [ad terram Rachy]. And Zuardu brought his wife to him into that land and the people, who are now called Sobamogera, remained after Duke Zuard’s death in
Greece and they were thus called soba by the Greeks, that is stupid people, because with their lord dead they did not take the way home.

So, every wannabe from the Bavarian Kingdom start your denying. Brainwash is power!
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Old 12-08-2008, 04:44 PM   #2
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WOOOW !

thats boombastic !!!
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Old 12-08-2008, 04:49 PM   #3
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I am here to serve
lets hear what the Bavarians from the Balkans thinks.......
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:57 PM   #4
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Excellent find Daskalot. Given the scarcity of sources in general during this era, it would be great if we compiled a decent list of sources relating to Macedonia and the Macedonians from the 12th century.

Do we know what event the above source is in relation to, and can we locate further information in respect to this event?
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:12 PM   #5
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Nice!
Where is my cigar?
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:31 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Nice!
Where is my cigar?
I received a good bunch a few days ago from a mate that just came back from Asia, ако си мераклија, кажи и ќе ти пратам

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daskalot
Some days later, Zuard and Cadusa with their whole army, emblazoned standards aloft, crossed the water of the Danube and captured Barancs [Borons] castle, after which they went to the castle of Scereducy. Hearing this, the countrymen of the Bulgarians and Macedonians feared greatly before them. Then all the inhabitants of that land sent their envoys with many gifts, to surrender the land to them and hand over their sons as hostages. Zuard and Cadusa, inclining to peace and taking their gifts and hostages, left them in peace, as if they were their own people, and riding beyond
the Wacil Gate [ultra portam Wacil], they took the castle of King Philip, then they conquered the whole land up to the city of Cleopatra [ad Cleopatram civitatem], and they had in their power the whole land from the city of Durazzo [Durasu] to the land of Rác [ad terram Rachy].
It is interesting to note that the Macedonians and Bulgarians are mentioned instead of Serbs, despite the fact that of all regions that the Morava river flows through, Serbia has the lion's share.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_III
Quote:
After the death of Emperor Manuel I on 24 September 1180, Bela retook Croatia, Dalmatia and the Szerémség from the Byzantine Empire. In the same year, Zára refused allegiance to Venice and accepted his rule. In 1184, Béla occupied Beograd, Barancs and the valley of the Morava River which had been held by the Byzantine Empire.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:46 PM   #7
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I must ask myself, where are the Balkan Bavarians? *echo*Helloooooo*echo*
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Old 12-10-2008, 12:24 AM   #8
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Thanks Daskalot.

It gives me joy reading stuff like this.
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Old 12-10-2008, 01:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
they had in their power the whole land from the city of Durazzo [Durasu] to the land of Rác [ad terram Rachy]. And Zuardu brought his wife to him into that land and the people, who are now called Sobamogera, remained after Duke Zuard’s death in Greece and they were thus called soba by the Greeks, that is stupid people, because with their lord dead they did not take the way home.
The original manuscript was written in the lingua franca of western Europe, which was Latin, hence, the reference to the people within the orbit of East Roman influence was naturally 'Greeks'. This further corroborates the fact that the term 'Greek' was not an ethnic description, as clearly, the Morava valley, Rac (Rashka?) and Durazzo (Drach) were not ethnic 'Greek' regions.
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
The original manuscript was written in the lingua franca of western Europe, which was Latin, hence, the reference to the people within the orbit of East Roman influence was naturally 'Greeks'. This further corroborates the fact that the term 'Greek' was not an ethnic description, as clearly, the Morava valley, Rac (Rashka?) and Durazzo (Drach) were not ethnic 'Greek' regions.
Perheps we should sent this to that Vulgar Dimitrov who givs Milion to one who gives evidence from midle centurys,he say there is no evidence that Macedonians existe from 1000 to 1500 AD
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