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Truths and Lies about Macedonia - Part 3 - Rebuttal
Gandeto
July 17, 2009
The article was posted on July 15, by Australian Macedonian Advisory Council, whose function is, as per their President of the Republic, Karolos Papoulias "to defend not only the cause of Macedonia but also all the causes of our country", adding that "all you overseas Macedonians, and all the overseas Greeks, have actively proven your faith in Greece and in the power of Hellenism".
Note: The newly coined nomenclature "Macedonian" for a Greek fellow, is a very recent evolutionary creation with a clear intent to blur the line of distinction between the real ethnic Macedonians living in Greece (who, as per the Greek government´s claim, do not exist) and the invented ones—the Christians who were transplanted from Asia Minor in the late 1920s and became (through a potent Greek metamorphosis), "Macedonians" directly descended from the Ancient Macedonians.
A short and concise response is in order:
In a lengthy overview about Macedonian-Balkan politics and history, written by Capetan Doukas, (who in my opinion deserves the attention of Mr. Papoulias), aside from the expected attacks on the writers for bringing the "inconvenient truth" to the forefront, we find some half truths, some conclusions which cannot withstand minor scrutiny and plenty of misconceptions used in the services of propaganda and falsehood.
While the desire to thrust myself into a detailed elaboration of the shortcomings presented by "Capetan" Doukas is inviting, the time and the energy needed for such an endeavor, warrants no such investment. Instead of a full and complete rebuttal, I will focus on only few points of interest.
Here, the intent is not to convince my adversaries of the truth the way I see it, nor to selectively manipulate the facts as to deprive and diminish the opposing side´s point of view, but simply to add another layer of evidence where appropriate, namely, the tumultuous conditions in the Balkan before the demise of the Sultan.
However, I expect to find neither a change in the attitude of the Greeks camp, nor a shift in their behavior to take place. Furthermore, I expect no deviation in their perception of the truth, no infusion of reality to replace or to modify their recalcitrant doggedness, and not even respect and/or acknowledgment of the factual evidence presented. Past experiences oblige us to believe that our adversaries will continue to use and distribute the same uniformly pre-packaged propaganda material as before. In other words, their modus-operandi, as evidenced by the statement of their beloved leader the President of the Republic Karolos Papoulias, is still stock-in-the-tracks in the pre 1912 war-era.
Mr. Doukas writes:
"How is it that the FYROM ancestors were undoubtedly considered as one in the same with the Bulgarians by the 99.99 % of all geographers, ethnologists, historians and linguists not that many years ago; till the decades of 1930-40?
Were all these scientists so deluded, that they could not recognize the hidden "Macedonian" identity? Or maybe was it the fault of the ancestors of today´s FYROM, who were constantly demonstrating with their attitude in every instance their true ethnic character i.e. the Bulgarian one?"
Let´s take a perfunctory look at your statements:
First and foremost Mr. Doukas, when you claim something to be factual evidence, like for example in this paragraph: "How is it that the FYROM ancestors were undoubtedly considered as one in the same with the Bulgarians by the 99.99 % of all geographers, ethnologists, historians and linguists not that many years ago; till the decades of 1930-40?",
then you need to provide needed references; In other words, if you want people, who read your text to take you seriously, you need to supplement your assertions with credible evidence. You haven´t done that. By simply saying that 99.99% of all the above mentioned scholars agree with me, is certainly not credible enough.
When you state that "99.99% of all geographers, ethnologists, historians and linguists" agree with your stipulation that FYROM ancestors were undoubtedly "considered as one and the same with the Bulgarians",
(a) did you include possible linguists, geographers, ethnologists and such scholars from the Republic of Macedonia itself? How about scholars from Serbia? Would they count? Would they agree with your stipulations?
(b) How do you know that for a fact? Did you take a poll yourself of these world´s scholars and have the tabulated results in hand? Did you find these "specific" numbers recorded by another reputable agency?
(c) What particular ethnic group´s ancestors within "FYROM" (Republic of Macedonia), did you have in mind? Surely, (as per your Greek claims) you would agree that Macedonia was "populated" by Serbs, Vlachs, Greeks, Romas and other ethnic groups and I am a bit puzzled now, as to which of these ethnic groups identified themselves as Bulgarians? Did your own "Greeks" change their coats and became Bulgarians? Did the Serbs identify themselves as Bulgarians? Did the Romas? What about the Vlachs population? Did the Vlachs identify themselves with Bulgarians? Or perhaps, it was the Albanians, who, when asked by these "worldly travelers" told them that they feel and want to be classified or identified as Bulgarians.
You see Mr. Doukas, your assertion is frivolous and completely inaccurate. Haste and probably deep-seated hate, led you to make these judgmental errors. You, Greeks need to coordinate your fabrications beforehand; you cannot borrow from one lie to cover up for another lie. It needs to be stressed and kept in mind that:
to every lie there is a falsehood and conversely, to any truth there is greater truth next to it. Yours, Mr. Doukas, is a falsehood that stands next to a lie.
However, if you really want to learn why many of these "scholars" have been erroneously led to believe that the Macedonian soul "did not exist" or was not fully "awaken nationally", I would like for you and your co-patriots to read and become aware of possible "other-than-Greek-truths" on this matter. But first allow me to pose this simple question to you:
Are there any ethnic Macedonians living in Greece today?
Surely, the answer is emphatic "no". We already know the answer. Your government openly, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, maintains this stand. You have even defied European Human Rights findings and U.N Sponsored Charter on Minority Rights. There is no need for further elaboration.
Now, please read the following passages which, I hope will shed some light as to why the ethnic Macedonians did not (if in fact they did not), as reported by some, identify themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
The situation that I am about to describe takes place between the years of 1865 and 1912. With the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate (the Turks felt that the Bulgars might prove a useful counterpoise to the Serbs and Greeks, decided to grant their request and establish a Bulgarian Exarchate), the Bulgars had an open field to influence the Orthodox inhabitants of Macedonia to join the Bulgarian controlled church whose liturgy, unlike the Greek Patriarchate Church, was conducted in a language that they, the Macedonians, at least, could understand it.
Meanwhile, in 1877 the Russian-Turkish War erupted and Turkey was obliged to give in and agree to the treaty of San Stefano. Macedonia, including Salonika, fell into Bulgarian hands. This newly established Bulgarian territory did not quite agree with Austro-Hungary and Great Britain´s vision of the Balkans and in 1878 the European nations convened in Berlin to revise the Balkan´s map once again. Consequently, with the Congress of Berlin, Bulgaria lost Macedonia. Whence, within a span of 14 or so months, "the Bulgars had thus seen Macedonia given to them, only to see it withdrawn."
However, their appetite was whetted; they foresaw the coming collapse of the Sultan and were "determined that when the day for the dividing the Turkey´s estate come, they should have the lion´s share."
This was the same, exact thinking expressed by your Greek Prime Minister Harilaos Trikoupis; if Bulgarians win, they will make them Bulgarians, if we win the war, we´ll make them Greeks. I am sure that the Serbs were not too far behind with their megalo-plans for the Macedonians, either.
"Macedonians must be shown to be Bulgarian in race, language, and sympathy," was the Bulgarian´s plan. (So was the Greek plan too). This Bulgarian attempt, to make the Macedonian inhabitants Bulgarians, or the Greek plan to make the Macedonian inhabitants Greek, made a hell of Macedonia during the thirty years before the Balkan wars of 1912.
As you can see Mr. Doukas, if Macedonians were Bulgarians as you claim, why would the Bulgarian government undertake such measures and bring "hell in Macedonia"? Why make "Bulgarians" out of the same old Bulgarians on the first place?
By the same analogy, if Macedonia was Greek, how could these Bulgarians attempt to make "Bulgarians" out of your "kindred" Greeks? Should we include the Serbian claim into the fray? Will they attempt to make the Macedonian inhabitants into Serbs?
Fact is Mr. Doukas, that "each of the Balkan States has cast covetous eyes on Macedonia and tried to prove part or the whole of it to be by nature hers."
Bulgars, Greek and Serbian bands terrorized the Macedonian population at will and sometimes with the connivance and even open support of the Turks who attempted to play each band against the others. The Macedonian populace did not know where to turn. Reprisals abounded; if one sided with the Greeks, he ran the risk of being killed by the Bulgars. If they declared loyalty to the Exarchate and thus with the Bulgars, they were termed expandable and eliminated by the Greeks. The same fate awaited them when loyalty was shown to the Serbs.
The war for the mind of the Macedonian populace raged on unabated; Bulgars opened schools and churches. Greeks followed close behind and the Serbs joined the tussle with equal enthusiasm. If there was any loyal patriotic Macedonian in this calamitous milieu of foreign interests and intrigues, he or she, did not stand a chance.
What the Greeks, the Bulgars and the Serbs, could not accomplish through the schools and the churches, they, the Greeks, the Bulgars and the Serbs, partially or fully accomplished with their rifles, knives and bombs. In other words the Serbs, the Bulgars and the Greeks, killed indiscriminately anyone who would stand on their ghastly path.
An eyewitness account goes as follows:
"We obeyed the orders given to us. Some time later there came from Gyvgyely a Turkish police official, who assembled us and put some questions to us. When, under the threats of ´voivoda´ John, the terrified people endorsed the terms of their petition, we were made into Bulgars."
Greeks and Serbs, after seeing such "good, effective" methods at work, "outfitted and encouraged their own comitadji bands to protect their kindred and to prevent the further spread of Bulgarization till the whole of Macedonia reeled with propaganda."
Mr. Doukas, Mr. Tymphaios, these were your celebrated "Macedonian" warriors. Yes, celebrated warriors against defenseless and unarmed Macedonian people.
There were Bulgarians in Macedonia then, by the same reason and logic that there are no ethnic Macedonians in Greece today.
Lastly Mr. Doukas, these figures below were reported by impartial, neutral German scholars about the population in Macedonia in the pre 1912 war years.
Greek view Bulgarian Serb German view
Macedonian Slavs -------- ------- ----------- 1, 215, 000
Serbs --------- 150, 000 1,800, 000 -----------
Bulgars 374, 000 1,172, 000 ------------ -----------
Greeks 659, 000 270, 000 201, 000 240, 000
Mussulmans 777, 000 840, 000 397, 000 1,165, 000
Quotes (pp. 56-63) and Appendix taken from The Serbs, The Guardian of the Gate by R.G.D. Laffan, C.F. Dorset Press, 1989 New York.
Your assertion that 99.99% of the world´s scholars considered the "FYROM" ancestors to be Bulgarian is effectively proven to be incorrect; a piece of propaganda
"basura" whose millage has long been depleted.
Once again Mr. Doukas (and company defenders of Hellenism), remember the following:
To every lie there is a falsehood and conversely, to any truth there is greater truth next to it. Yours is a falsehood that stands next to a lie.
Until next time…
Gandeto
July 17, 2009
The article was posted on July 15, by Australian Macedonian Advisory Council, whose function is, as per their President of the Republic, Karolos Papoulias "to defend not only the cause of Macedonia but also all the causes of our country", adding that "all you overseas Macedonians, and all the overseas Greeks, have actively proven your faith in Greece and in the power of Hellenism".
Note: The newly coined nomenclature "Macedonian" for a Greek fellow, is a very recent evolutionary creation with a clear intent to blur the line of distinction between the real ethnic Macedonians living in Greece (who, as per the Greek government´s claim, do not exist) and the invented ones—the Christians who were transplanted from Asia Minor in the late 1920s and became (through a potent Greek metamorphosis), "Macedonians" directly descended from the Ancient Macedonians.
A short and concise response is in order:
In a lengthy overview about Macedonian-Balkan politics and history, written by Capetan Doukas, (who in my opinion deserves the attention of Mr. Papoulias), aside from the expected attacks on the writers for bringing the "inconvenient truth" to the forefront, we find some half truths, some conclusions which cannot withstand minor scrutiny and plenty of misconceptions used in the services of propaganda and falsehood.
While the desire to thrust myself into a detailed elaboration of the shortcomings presented by "Capetan" Doukas is inviting, the time and the energy needed for such an endeavor, warrants no such investment. Instead of a full and complete rebuttal, I will focus on only few points of interest.
Here, the intent is not to convince my adversaries of the truth the way I see it, nor to selectively manipulate the facts as to deprive and diminish the opposing side´s point of view, but simply to add another layer of evidence where appropriate, namely, the tumultuous conditions in the Balkan before the demise of the Sultan.
However, I expect to find neither a change in the attitude of the Greeks camp, nor a shift in their behavior to take place. Furthermore, I expect no deviation in their perception of the truth, no infusion of reality to replace or to modify their recalcitrant doggedness, and not even respect and/or acknowledgment of the factual evidence presented. Past experiences oblige us to believe that our adversaries will continue to use and distribute the same uniformly pre-packaged propaganda material as before. In other words, their modus-operandi, as evidenced by the statement of their beloved leader the President of the Republic Karolos Papoulias, is still stock-in-the-tracks in the pre 1912 war-era.
Mr. Doukas writes:
"How is it that the FYROM ancestors were undoubtedly considered as one in the same with the Bulgarians by the 99.99 % of all geographers, ethnologists, historians and linguists not that many years ago; till the decades of 1930-40?
Were all these scientists so deluded, that they could not recognize the hidden "Macedonian" identity? Or maybe was it the fault of the ancestors of today´s FYROM, who were constantly demonstrating with their attitude in every instance their true ethnic character i.e. the Bulgarian one?"
Let´s take a perfunctory look at your statements:
First and foremost Mr. Doukas, when you claim something to be factual evidence, like for example in this paragraph: "How is it that the FYROM ancestors were undoubtedly considered as one in the same with the Bulgarians by the 99.99 % of all geographers, ethnologists, historians and linguists not that many years ago; till the decades of 1930-40?",
then you need to provide needed references; In other words, if you want people, who read your text to take you seriously, you need to supplement your assertions with credible evidence. You haven´t done that. By simply saying that 99.99% of all the above mentioned scholars agree with me, is certainly not credible enough.
When you state that "99.99% of all geographers, ethnologists, historians and linguists" agree with your stipulation that FYROM ancestors were undoubtedly "considered as one and the same with the Bulgarians",
(a) did you include possible linguists, geographers, ethnologists and such scholars from the Republic of Macedonia itself? How about scholars from Serbia? Would they count? Would they agree with your stipulations?
(b) How do you know that for a fact? Did you take a poll yourself of these world´s scholars and have the tabulated results in hand? Did you find these "specific" numbers recorded by another reputable agency?
(c) What particular ethnic group´s ancestors within "FYROM" (Republic of Macedonia), did you have in mind? Surely, (as per your Greek claims) you would agree that Macedonia was "populated" by Serbs, Vlachs, Greeks, Romas and other ethnic groups and I am a bit puzzled now, as to which of these ethnic groups identified themselves as Bulgarians? Did your own "Greeks" change their coats and became Bulgarians? Did the Serbs identify themselves as Bulgarians? Did the Romas? What about the Vlachs population? Did the Vlachs identify themselves with Bulgarians? Or perhaps, it was the Albanians, who, when asked by these "worldly travelers" told them that they feel and want to be classified or identified as Bulgarians.
You see Mr. Doukas, your assertion is frivolous and completely inaccurate. Haste and probably deep-seated hate, led you to make these judgmental errors. You, Greeks need to coordinate your fabrications beforehand; you cannot borrow from one lie to cover up for another lie. It needs to be stressed and kept in mind that:
to every lie there is a falsehood and conversely, to any truth there is greater truth next to it. Yours, Mr. Doukas, is a falsehood that stands next to a lie.
However, if you really want to learn why many of these "scholars" have been erroneously led to believe that the Macedonian soul "did not exist" or was not fully "awaken nationally", I would like for you and your co-patriots to read and become aware of possible "other-than-Greek-truths" on this matter. But first allow me to pose this simple question to you:
Are there any ethnic Macedonians living in Greece today?
Surely, the answer is emphatic "no". We already know the answer. Your government openly, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, maintains this stand. You have even defied European Human Rights findings and U.N Sponsored Charter on Minority Rights. There is no need for further elaboration.
Now, please read the following passages which, I hope will shed some light as to why the ethnic Macedonians did not (if in fact they did not), as reported by some, identify themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
The situation that I am about to describe takes place between the years of 1865 and 1912. With the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate (the Turks felt that the Bulgars might prove a useful counterpoise to the Serbs and Greeks, decided to grant their request and establish a Bulgarian Exarchate), the Bulgars had an open field to influence the Orthodox inhabitants of Macedonia to join the Bulgarian controlled church whose liturgy, unlike the Greek Patriarchate Church, was conducted in a language that they, the Macedonians, at least, could understand it.
Meanwhile, in 1877 the Russian-Turkish War erupted and Turkey was obliged to give in and agree to the treaty of San Stefano. Macedonia, including Salonika, fell into Bulgarian hands. This newly established Bulgarian territory did not quite agree with Austro-Hungary and Great Britain´s vision of the Balkans and in 1878 the European nations convened in Berlin to revise the Balkan´s map once again. Consequently, with the Congress of Berlin, Bulgaria lost Macedonia. Whence, within a span of 14 or so months, "the Bulgars had thus seen Macedonia given to them, only to see it withdrawn."
However, their appetite was whetted; they foresaw the coming collapse of the Sultan and were "determined that when the day for the dividing the Turkey´s estate come, they should have the lion´s share."
This was the same, exact thinking expressed by your Greek Prime Minister Harilaos Trikoupis; if Bulgarians win, they will make them Bulgarians, if we win the war, we´ll make them Greeks. I am sure that the Serbs were not too far behind with their megalo-plans for the Macedonians, either.
"Macedonians must be shown to be Bulgarian in race, language, and sympathy," was the Bulgarian´s plan. (So was the Greek plan too). This Bulgarian attempt, to make the Macedonian inhabitants Bulgarians, or the Greek plan to make the Macedonian inhabitants Greek, made a hell of Macedonia during the thirty years before the Balkan wars of 1912.
As you can see Mr. Doukas, if Macedonians were Bulgarians as you claim, why would the Bulgarian government undertake such measures and bring "hell in Macedonia"? Why make "Bulgarians" out of the same old Bulgarians on the first place?
By the same analogy, if Macedonia was Greek, how could these Bulgarians attempt to make "Bulgarians" out of your "kindred" Greeks? Should we include the Serbian claim into the fray? Will they attempt to make the Macedonian inhabitants into Serbs?
Fact is Mr. Doukas, that "each of the Balkan States has cast covetous eyes on Macedonia and tried to prove part or the whole of it to be by nature hers."
Bulgars, Greek and Serbian bands terrorized the Macedonian population at will and sometimes with the connivance and even open support of the Turks who attempted to play each band against the others. The Macedonian populace did not know where to turn. Reprisals abounded; if one sided with the Greeks, he ran the risk of being killed by the Bulgars. If they declared loyalty to the Exarchate and thus with the Bulgars, they were termed expandable and eliminated by the Greeks. The same fate awaited them when loyalty was shown to the Serbs.
The war for the mind of the Macedonian populace raged on unabated; Bulgars opened schools and churches. Greeks followed close behind and the Serbs joined the tussle with equal enthusiasm. If there was any loyal patriotic Macedonian in this calamitous milieu of foreign interests and intrigues, he or she, did not stand a chance.
What the Greeks, the Bulgars and the Serbs, could not accomplish through the schools and the churches, they, the Greeks, the Bulgars and the Serbs, partially or fully accomplished with their rifles, knives and bombs. In other words the Serbs, the Bulgars and the Greeks, killed indiscriminately anyone who would stand on their ghastly path.
An eyewitness account goes as follows:
"We obeyed the orders given to us. Some time later there came from Gyvgyely a Turkish police official, who assembled us and put some questions to us. When, under the threats of ´voivoda´ John, the terrified people endorsed the terms of their petition, we were made into Bulgars."
Greeks and Serbs, after seeing such "good, effective" methods at work, "outfitted and encouraged their own comitadji bands to protect their kindred and to prevent the further spread of Bulgarization till the whole of Macedonia reeled with propaganda."
Mr. Doukas, Mr. Tymphaios, these were your celebrated "Macedonian" warriors. Yes, celebrated warriors against defenseless and unarmed Macedonian people.
There were Bulgarians in Macedonia then, by the same reason and logic that there are no ethnic Macedonians in Greece today.
Lastly Mr. Doukas, these figures below were reported by impartial, neutral German scholars about the population in Macedonia in the pre 1912 war years.
Greek view Bulgarian Serb German view
Macedonian Slavs -------- ------- ----------- 1, 215, 000
Serbs --------- 150, 000 1,800, 000 -----------
Bulgars 374, 000 1,172, 000 ------------ -----------
Greeks 659, 000 270, 000 201, 000 240, 000
Mussulmans 777, 000 840, 000 397, 000 1,165, 000
Quotes (pp. 56-63) and Appendix taken from The Serbs, The Guardian of the Gate by R.G.D. Laffan, C.F. Dorset Press, 1989 New York.
Your assertion that 99.99% of the world´s scholars considered the "FYROM" ancestors to be Bulgarian is effectively proven to be incorrect; a piece of propaganda
"basura" whose millage has long been depleted.
Once again Mr. Doukas (and company defenders of Hellenism), remember the following:
To every lie there is a falsehood and conversely, to any truth there is greater truth next to it. Yours is a falsehood that stands next to a lie.
Until next time…
Gandeto, thank you!
