Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    The maps and Bulgarian statistics are no more reliable or believable than the Verković's quote itself. Besides, as you have yourself admitted they come no less than 40 years after Verković made that statement.

    Are the following historical testimonies also dismissed as impossible?

    1) Anonymi Descriptio Europae orientalis. Imperium Constantinopolitanum, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Ungaria, Polonia, Bohemia. Anno MCCCVIII exarata. Cracoviae, 1916: As per the anonymous traveler of Eastern Europe from the XIV century, it is stated that Vlachs (whom the author calls "Blasi"), are a numerous people living between Macedonia, Achaia and Salonika.

    2) Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, 1774: The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of Thessaly and Macedonia.

    ================================================== =================================================

    Somewhat unrelated to above.

    3) Romans settled large groups of Italians throughout Macedonia.



    4) From 1885, Vasile Maniu.

    "Forgotten are even those Vlachs of Macedonia, who even in the times of the Crusades had such a power and colonized the interior of the peninsula, the "Weiles Skurta", on Mount Athos, these Vlachs are all forgotten: Morias, Romei, also Flacci or Volci..."




    5) The following comes from Миленко Филиповић (Milenko Filipovic), from the book called Цинцари у Босни (Cincari/Aromanians in Bosnia).

    - "natione Graeco-Valachus vulgo Czinczar"
    - In Vojvodina "in the 17th century, (known) under the name of the Greeks"




    In the same book, on page 74 M. Filipovic talks about the origin of the family Bokaris or Botsarić of Bosnia (which is very similar if not the same as Botsaris):

    "Kao sto sam ranije izneo, u Banjoj Luci je moglo biti Cincara vec u pocetku druge polovine 18 veka. Po mom licnom saznanju, u Banjoj Luci su bili cincarskog porekla Zite, koji su izumrli u muskoj lozi. Bili su dosli od Korce, a tek ovde primili slavu sv. Djordja. Cincarskog porekla su i Petrušići ("Petrusi"), ciji je predak drzao han na Sitnici kod Banja Luke. Slusao sam da je nekada u Banjoj Luci ziveo i neki Cincarin koji je pravio ikone. Taj ikonopisac mogao bi biti, kako me je obavestio Đoko Mazalić, poznati slikar i istoricar umetnosti na tlu Bosne i Hercegovine, Atanasije Bokaris, docnije Bocarić, ciji je bio sin ili brat i poznati srpski slikar Špiro Bocarić. Bocarići su bili poreklom iz Makedonije ili Soluna: Atanasije je ucio slikanje u Solunu."

    Translation:
    "As I mentioned earlier, in Banja Luka, there could have been Aromanians already at the beginning of the second half of the 18th century. According to my personal knowledge, in Banja Luka Zita family were of Aromanian stock, which are extinct on paternal side. They came from Korcha (Albania), and only here they received or adopted the "slava" of St. George. Of Aromanian origin are the Petrusici ('Petrusi'), whose ancestor kept the inn on Sitnica near Banja Luka. I have heard that in Banja Luka, there lived some Aromanian, who made icons. This icon painter could have been, as Djoko Mazalić informed me, a famous painter and art historian in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Atanasije Bokaris, later Botsarić, whose son was (or brother) the famous Serbian painter Špiro Botsarić. The Botsarić family were originally from Macedonia or Solun: Atanasije studied painting in Solun."

    (It is very likely that Atan. Bokaris was a Greek-speaker.)
    Last edited by Carlin; 05-05-2018, 02:28 PM.

    Comment

    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      Спиро Гулабчев од Лерин -- "Един оглед по етнографията на Македония", Габрово 1887 година.



      Comment

      • Liberator of Makedonija
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 1596

        Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
        Спиро Гулабчев од Лерин -- "Един оглед по етнографията на Македония", Габрово 1887 година.



        If you're trying to make a point can you please underline the relevant text that relates to your point and provide an English translation.
        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

        Comment

        • Amphipolis
          Banned
          • Aug 2014
          • 1328

          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
          2) Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, 1774: The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of Thessaly and Macedonia.
          Vlachs being 75% of Macedonia/Thessaly and 50% of Thrace is also out of question (they were certainly <5% and <1% respectively). Turks claimed they were 50+0,001% themselves. Here's one of the oldest maps (a french map from 1847)

          Comment

          • tchaiku
            Member
            • Nov 2016
            • 786

            ''In the broadest sense, both Greek and Western sources of the later Middle Ages—like the French, Italian, and Aragonese versions of the Chronicle of the Morea, or the chroniclers Ramon Muntaner and Marino Sanudo Torsello—used "Vlachia" or similar names (Blaquie, Blaquia, Val[l]achia) to refer to all of Thessaly, from the Pindus mountains in the west to the Aegean Sea in the east, and from the area of Mount Olympus and Servia in the north to the towns of Zetouni (Lamia) and Neopatras (Ypati) in the south.''



            Olympus was inhabited by Vlachs.

            Comment

            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
              If you're trying to make a point can you please underline the relevant text that relates to your point and provide an English translation.
              Long story short, Spiro Gulabchev (who was from Lerin) is writing about and argues that Macedonia should be an independent state for a couple of different reasons - but states that the main ethnic element in Macedonia is Bulgarian, and frequently calls the inhabitants Macedonian Bulgarians. He is also arguing against Serbian claims and pretensions, and gives some examples of how Serbs are doing this. The primary way Serbs do this is by calling the 'main' ethnic element of Macedonia simply as "Slavs" - in which way Serbs are attempting to demonstrate that the Slavophone population of Macedonia is ethnically closer to the Serbs, than to the Bulgarians. For Gulabchev all these claims and assertions are propaganda, as he considers himself and the population of Macedonia as Bulgarian.
              Last edited by Carlin; 05-08-2018, 10:58 PM.

              Comment

              • Liberator of Makedonija
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 1596

                Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                Long story short, Spiro Gulabchev (who was from Lerin) is writing about and argues that Macedonia should be an independent state for a couple of different reasons - but states that the main ethnic element in Macedonia is Bulgarian, and frequently calls the inhabitants Macedonian Bulgarians. He is also arguing against Serbian claims and pretensions, and gives some examples of how Serbs are doing this. The primary way Serbs do this is by calling the 'main' ethnic element of Macedonia simply as "Slavs" - in which way Serbs are attempting to demonstrate that the Slavophone population of Macedonia is ethnically closer to the Serbs, than to the Bulgarians. For Gulabchev all these claims and assertions are propaganda, as he considers himself and the population of Macedonia as Bulgarian.
                And how does this relate to the thread topic? Feel this would be better suited for a thread on Bulgarian propaganda or Macedonian literature
                I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                  And how does this relate to the thread topic? Feel this would be better suited for a thread on Bulgarian propaganda or Macedonian literature
                  Feel free to move it - or have it moved there.

                  Adding (Repeating) relevant info.
                  Last edited by Carlin; 05-08-2018, 11:54 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                    Vlachs being 75% of Macedonia/Thessaly and 50% of Thrace is also out of question (they were certainly <5% and <1% respectively). Turks claimed they were 50+0,001% themselves. Here's one of the oldest maps (a french map from 1847)

                    The map is unreliable as well as confusing. As I have repeated on countless occasions, we have numerous discrepancies.

                    I must be blind, but are Attica, Boeotia and (Eastern) Argolis marked with "Arvanite" colors? If not, why not?






                    Another map - once again, discrepanices between maps:
                    Source: Ethnographische karte des Peloponnes (ethnographic map of the Peloponnese), by Dr. Alfred Philippson, Petermanns Mitteilungen, 1890. The Legend translated into English: PURPLE - Newgreek language. BLUE - Tzakonian dialect. RED - Albanian language (current spreading). RED - Greek and Albanian mixed. RED - territory of


                    I just quickly marked/colored in 'red' on the same map areas which used to be Albanian-speaking (I failed to mark in 'red' a couple of other areas) - as per the creator of the map - prior to the language shift (which probably took place only in the 18th-19th c.).

                    Last edited by Carlin; 05-09-2018, 12:26 AM.

                    Comment

                    • tchaiku
                      Member
                      • Nov 2016
                      • 786

                      ^

                      Comment

                      • tchaiku
                        Member
                        • Nov 2016
                        • 786

                        Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post

                        I just quickly marked/colored in 'red' on the same map areas which used to be Albanian-speaking (I failed to mark in 'red' a couple of other areas) - as per the creator of the map - prior to the language shift (which probably took place only in the 18th-19th c.).

                        What makes you think that the language shift only took place during 18th and 19th century but not in 17th century?
                        1)The bulk of stradioti rank and file were of Albanian origin from regions of Greece, but by the middle of the 16th century there is evidence that many of them had been Hellenized and in some occasions even Italianized.

                        2) In fact, the 1572 survey of population and property of Nicosia after the Ottoman conquest, under beylerbey Sinan Pasha, recorded 90-95 local Armenians in Nicosia, out of about 1,100 inhabitants - all with completely Hellenised names.

                        3) A History of Cyprus, Volume 1 By George Hill. Page 261: "...certainly there was a coast-guard of Albanians in Cyprus under Venetian rule.." --> In the footnote of the same page, we read the following: "The Albanians formed a race apart, until they disappeared in the sixteenth century".

                        Comment

                        • Amphipolis
                          Banned
                          • Aug 2014
                          • 1328

                          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                          The map is unreliable as well as confusing. As I have repeated on countless occasions, we have numerous discrepancies.

                          I must be blind, but are Attica, Boeotia and (Eastern) Argolis marked with "Arvanite" colors? If not, why not?
                          This map (which is Austrian, not French, by the way) is probably THE oldest one (1840s) that's why I posted it. I think I can find (at least) two from 1860s, more from 1870s and so on. All maps have similarities and differences and different styles and qualities.

                          Confusing? The map of Peloponnesus has three types of pink areas that is impossible to distinguish.

                          Here's two more maps from 1860s, can't see any Vlachs in Eastern Macedonia.



                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332












                            (The map above seems to ignore the presence of Slavs and Vlachs in eastern Thrace. For instance, Vlachs are recorded in different districts throughout Thrace, one of them being around Bizye, which we can see above. Later on, the Vlachs were forcibly moved from Bizye to the Asiatic coast of the Bosphorus.)

                            Comment

                            • tchaiku
                              Member
                              • Nov 2016
                              • 786

                              Most of the population of Macedonia were described as Bulgarians during 16th and 17th centuries by Ottoman historians and travellers such as Hoca Sadeddin Efendi, Mustafa Selaniki, Hadji Khalfa and Evliya Celebi.

                              This comes from wikipedia.

                              Comment

                              • Liberator of Makedonija
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2014
                                • 1596

                                Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                                Most of the population of Macedonia were described as Bulgarians during 16th and 17th centuries by Ottoman historians and travellers such as Hoca Sadeddin Efendi, Mustafa Selaniki, Hadji Khalfa and Evliya Celebi.

                                This comes from wikipedia.
                                A highly reliable source.
                                I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X