Slavic Brotherhood

[Constellation]

A bit curious about some things.

Slavic people are commonly lumped as one group. Very similar to Arabs.

In my experience, Germanic people are not.

Westerners do not see a distinction between a Macedonian and a Pole. It is all Slavic. Macedonian surnames, which is a separate topic altogether, are commonly mistaken as Polish (via the "ski"). The assumption is, even after ascertaining a person is not Polish, but Macedonian, that they are the same people and the language is the same (it is all Slavic to them).

But Westerners see a difference between a Swede and a German. An Englishman and a Dane.

For example, no one assumes that a person who speaks English can also converse in Danish, German, or Dutch because they are all Germanic languages.

How do Macedonians on this forum perceive other ethncities with a Slavic language?

DNA studies seem to suggest a great chasm of difference between northern Slavic speakers and southern Slavic speakers. Yet, they all speak a Slavic language.

Is it the opinion of the members of this forum that all Slavic speakers, despite the differences in genetic tests, all share a common lineage? That they all descend from so-called Slavic tribes? Or is it the opinion of this forum that what we have is very different peoples speaking the same language family because the Slavic language spread throughout eastern Europe, from south to north? Or north to south, as mainstream scholars argue?

Do Macedonians see an infinity with Russians, or other northern slavic speakers, because they speak a Slavic language, are Slavic Orthodox, and because they are of the same "tribe"? One or the other, or all of the above.

Thoughts?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Slavic people are commonly lumped as one group. Very similar to Arabs. In my experience, Germanic people are not.

Yet both refer to the same type of groupings, which are based on language families, not ethnicities.

Westerners do not see a distinction between a Macedonian and a Pole.

Rubbish. I have never met a westerner who knows anything about Macedonians or Poles refer to one as the other.

Macedonian surnames, which is a separate topic altogether, are commonly mistaken as Polish (via the "ski").

So? The same can be said about German, Dutch, Scandinavian and even some English names and surnames.

The assumption is, even after ascertaining a person is not Polish, but Macedonian, that they are the same people and the language is the same (it is all Slavic to them).

An ignorant assumption made by either naïve or deliberately stupid people.

For example, no one assumes that a person who speaks English can also converse in Danish, German, or Dutch because they are all Germanic languages.

Who assumes that a Macedonian can be conversant in Polish or Russian? Can you cite some examples?

How do Macedonians on this forum perceive other ethncities with a Slavic language?

As other ethnicities that speak a Slavic language.

Is it the opinion of the members of this forum that all Slavic speakers, despite the differences in genetic tests, all share a common lineage?

No.

That they all descend from so-called Slavic tribes?

No.

Or is it the opinion of this forum that what we have is very different peoples speaking the same language family because the Slavic language spread throughout eastern Europe, from south to north? Or north to south, as mainstream scholars argue?

Something like that, but not as simple as you seem to be portraying it.

Do Macedonians see an infinity with Russians, or other northern slavic speakers, because they speak a Slavic language, are Slavic Orthodox, and because they are of the same "tribe"? One or the other, or all of the above.

No.

[Constellation]

Yet both refer to the same type of groupings, which are based on language families, not ethnicities.

It is true that they are language families, but I think Westerners see it more than language. In their minds, although they are different ethnicities, they are essentially the same people. And the reason for this is that they speak the same language.

This is common with Spanish speakers too.

Rubbish. I have never met a westerner who knows anything about Macedonians or Poles refer to one as the other.

It is not those who know. And I'm not suggesting Westerners call Macedonians "Polish". It is principally those who don't know. In my experience, I have had people, who know I am Macedonian, bring in other Slavic speakers (be it from Slovakia, Poland, etc) and ask me if I can listen to them to see if I can understand them.

The perception is that it is all Slavic,and they are all Slavs, and thus the same people, who just happen to call themselves different ethnic titles.

So? The same can be said about German, Dutch, Scandinavian and even some English names and surnames.

Yes, but this is not noticed by them. Names ending in ski typically conjure up Polish people. So when a non-Polish person has it, there is a great deal of shock to learn someone has a "ski" and not be Polish or Russian. And even if you were to explain it is Macedonian, the ignorant who are not even aware of a country called Macedonia even exists, assume it must be near Poland.

Let's face it: this suffix is not native to the southern Balkan surnames and is most commonly used by northern Slavic speakers. And here I do not mean its general usage as "from" or "originating from".

Who assumes that a Macedonian can be conversant in Polish or Russian? Can you cite some examples?

I can only list examples in my life, and I have already done so earlier. In my experience, Westerners, regardless of their country, identify Macedonians as Yugoslavians.

Yugoslavian is a collectivist title, a geographical description, and a former super state. But to the ignorant, it is ethnicity. They are all Yugoslavians in the Balkans--southern Slavs.

To these people, titles such as "Macedonia", "Serbia", etc are essentially without meaning. They are all Yugoslavs.

I cannot possibly be the anyone with this experience, can I?

Something like that, but not as simple as you seem to be portraying it.

How would you characterize it?

[Dejan]

So...a brotherhood of....languages?

[Constellation]

So...a brotherhood of....languages?

I'm not arguing there is a Slavic brotherhood. I think that is the perception of Westerners. I think the word "Slav" is very misued.

What I find so interesting, however, is that if you do a search on google on "Slavic women" you get the typical jargon about "Slavic" features and "Slavic" personality, as if such things existed. Sometimes you will find articles about women in the Balkans with headlines such as "More Balkan than Slavic" as if the two titles have any real meaning.

The underlining premise of this is that those in the Balkans today are a product of the Slavic migration theory and that they are both in language and ethnicity "Slavs".

In other instances, you will find Russians and Poles call themselves, as in an ethnic description, "Slavs", even though it is a language family.

You will even find articles about how Leo Dicaprio, who is mostly of Russian descent, described as having Slavic features.

[Momce Makedonce]

I'm not arguing there is a Slavic brotherhood. I think that is the perception of Westerners. I think the word "Slav" is very misued.

What I find so interesting, however, is that if you do a search on google on "Slavic women" you get the typical jargon about "Slavic" features and "Slavic" personality, as if such things existed. Sometimes you will find articles about women in the Balkans with headlines such as "More Balkan than Slavic" as if the two titles have any real meaning.

The underlining premise of this is that those in the Balkans today are a product of the Slavic migration theory and that they are both in language and ethnicity "Slavs".

In other instances, you will find Russians and Poles call themselves, as in an ethnic description, "Slavs", even though it is a language family.

You will even find articles about how Leo Dicaprio, who is mostly of Russian descent, described as having Slavic features.

Unfortunately what you are saying is true in a lot of cases. People in mainstream society have a habit of trying to lump everyone into the Slavic ethnicity pile. This is even more the case when it comes to the Balkan countries due to the Yugoslav past and all the Yugo propaganda about all those countries being the same South Slavic people. This has stuck around even to this day and is used by people who cant see behind all the Yugo and Soviet propaganda.

It is also unfortunate that some Macedonians seem to have been brainwashed by Yugo propaganda and today will actually say that they have a Slavic ethnicity when there is no such thing. Even worse is when confused Macedonians ( the young ones in my age bracket of 15-25) claim that Alexander the Great is ours as he was Macedonian but then call themselves Slavic, which contradicts what they said about Alexander being ours ( Macedonian ).

Slavic is simply a language group. A group of languages which share similarities. People to this day wrongly assume that this means that all the people who speak this language are the same. This is wrong. The people who speak Slavic languages are not the same ethnically, they just speak a similar language.

It is also the same with some of the South American countries who speak Spanish. People assume they have Spanish roots because they speak Spanish. You cant say that people like Peruvians, Columbians and what not are Spanish just because they speak the Spanish language. Ethnically they are different.

[George S.]

Constellation you are trying to fit the square [peg in the round hole.You are trying to look at commonality.I can tell you hordes of people different have gone to Macedonia and the Balkans romans celts,huns etc etc.slavs etc they all left some kind of mark linguistc or whatever what is the result I call it some kind of influence.Macedonia is still Macedonia.THe same people went to Greece to turkey do they call themselves slavs no so its purely propaganda.Despite the smears that we are slavs and nothing more is a lie.WE have had the same influence as other countries.no more and no less.The other thing is we d takeidnt take up the slav language our words have slav words for thousands of years.So lavs we are Macedonians.Sowe aren't just slavs we are Macedonians.
They say we are only slavs is wrong when it"s light linguistics in the language.Anyway that's how propaganda works by exaggerating things.

[Constellation]

Back to the point.

If you do a search for "Germanic women", the results are very different than "Slavic women".

Slav, Slavic people, Slavic ethnicity, have a very different meaning and application than Germanic in the West.

Germanic people are not lumped in one group. Even though, oddly enough, it can be argued that there is greater affinity between Germanic people in DNA than so-called Slavic people.

A search on Slavic women is similar to a search on Arabic women. To the West, Eastern people are in groups. Spanish, which is Western, is also lumped.

[Constellation]

Long before there was a Yugoslavia in history, the peoples of the region identified as individual ethnicities. These unique ethnicites did not vanish when a Yugoslav federation was forged.

[Constellation]

Pro Greek Western scholars, Pro Greek Eastern scholars, politicians, and others routinely state there is no such thing as a Macedonian ethnicity or language. That modern day Macedonians are not Macedonians but Slavs. And that they are a collection of Bulgarians, Serbs, and other Slavic peoples. And that these people arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century or so and thus have no connection to the ancient Macedonians.

It is unfortunate, but some older generation Macedonians believe this to be true. Some Macedonians believe in the Pan Slavic theory and that today's Macedonia is merely southern Serbia or Western Bulgaria, depending on one's political persuasion.

These same Macedonians see an ethnic affinity with all Slavic people.

It is all Slavic.

[Gocka]

Constellation,

You are correct in most of what you are saying. I have encountered the same prejudices and unequal use of labels.

I have argued many times about how now all latin based language speakers are ever lumped together as an ethnicity. For example the difference between Italian and Spanish is very little, yet you would never here of anyone saying that they are one in the same as an ethnic group. It gets even worse when looking at Germanic people. Germans get offended if you say they are like the Dutch, or like Swedes. I have had many German people call me Yugoslavian, or Russian even (While still knowing I consider myself Macedonian), but then get offended when I say Germans are very similar to Nordic people and to the Dutch, not only in language but culture and aesthetics. We are always discounted and lumped together as just this one tribe while even though all western countries are conglomerates of many ethnicites they enjoy the right to self determination while we don't.

This stems from a deep rooted superiority complex that many Westerners have. Even though England even derives its name from the Germanic tribe that inhabited the Island, you would never catch an Englishmen identify as Germanic. Or even more interesting is the reaction you get if you call a Welsh person English! How different can the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh really be if they all share an Island, which was all inhabited by Germanic peoples.

The French are a Germanic tribe, that speak a Latin language, yet no one would ever call them either, they are uniquely French.

Many people have tried to convince me that there is a Swiss and Belgian ethnicity (Even Macedonians). When it is a historical fact that both countries were always known to be made up of other ehtnicites. Today Belgians don't say I am French or I am German, they are Belgian.

You Spanish professor doesn't like to be compared to Latin Americans, yet a country like Argentina is 90% European and Columbia and Uruguay are not far behind.

That fact is that the entire Western world takes many liberties that they do not afford to others and in my opinion it is based and a superiority complex. Eastern Europe has been depressed both economically and socially for a few centuries now, even though overall in human history the south East of Europe was always more socially advanced. Tell me what the English, German, and French were doing during Alexanders time, or Romes, or even most of the Byzantine period. They were still living in tress and huts while our region was building empires.

The unfairness is certainly there but what is your goal exactly/? Or did you just want to share what you have seen and experienced and see what others thought about it?

[Gocka]

I would like to add more because this topic really makes me reflect on how stupid the name dispute is with Greece considering the liberties that Western Europe has allowed themselves while criticizing Macedonians.

Many times I have been called Russian, that my language is essentially Russian and that my ethnicity is "pretty much the same as Russian". Russia is 3000km from Macedonia, and we are "pretty much the same" but Wales a country within a country on an island, and yet they are not English and would get offended at the comparison. Just to put in perspective Germany is only 1500km form Macedonia.

Another thing I forgot to touch on was Communism. I think Communism has a big impact on how people of a certain few generations perceive the Balkans and Eastern Europe. There were pan Slavic movements during communist times, and the fact that there were very close ties between communist nations also contributes to peoples perception that we are all one in the same.

At the end of the day I wish I could say that it was only ill educated people who make these unfair judgments but unfortunately you will find a pretty large chunk of even the highly educated like professors make these type of judgments. Why? Racism, laziness, superiority, ignorance have your pick. No one really cares that countries like Germany, France, and Italy, were not too long ago giant swaths of land where you had tens of different ethnic groups, who only came together under imperialism. I think that also has a factor to play, when they look at the size of Balkan nations and compare them to how big their nations are, the cant believe that a single ethnicity can have so few people, that a real ethnicity is large and encompassing. Many times when Yugoslavia is referred too many people speak about the "tiny countries that formed after Yugoslavia fell apart", even though all these ethnicites existed prior to its formation not even a 60 years before its collapse.

Like I said have your pick.

[Constellation]

Gocka, my friend, you put it quite well and quite eloquently.

I have two theories on this:

1. The first theory is that the highly educated among us believe and teach that everything is a social construct. This is somewhat true, but not entirely. For example, while ethnicity is a social construct, race is not. Race is biological. Gender is biological.

However, I have learned at the university level that even race and gender are social constructs, which is insane. How can race and gender be social constructs?

I digress.

Anyway. The theory is that since ethnicity is a social construct, one's ethnicity can only be judged by language. So if I have a Slavic sounding last name and speak Slavic, that makes me Slavic.

If I have an Arabic name and/or speak Arabic, I'm Arab.

What about the French, who are indeed a Germanic people, and yet they speak Italic? What about Romanians, who speak Italic, but are not related to Italians? What about the English? This is not applicable to any of these groups.

2. The reason Macedonians are Slavs, and nothing more, is because mainstream scholars have argued that Slavic tribes, not merely Slavic speakers, descended in the Balkans in the 6th century or so from the mountains of Ukraine.

Wikipedia is full of such information.

What happened to the native non-Slavic peoples of the Balkans? They were either wiped out or merged with the larger Slavic people.

So regardless what these people call themselves today, whether Macedonian or Serbian, they are ultimately descendents of Slavic tribes.

This makes us Slavs--no different than Russians, Poles, and Ukrainians.

We are all the same people because we all descend from the same Slavic tribes.

I think these two theories helps explain the worldview of Western academy.

It doesn't help that older Macedonians still identify as Yugoslavians--southern Slavs. How many times have I heard from Macedonians that we are all the same people.

We are a curious bunch, us "Slavs".

[Big Bad Sven]

Gocka, my friend, you put it quite well and quite eloquently.

I have two theories on this:

1. The first theory is that the highly educated among us believe and teach that everything is a social construct. This is somewhat true, but not entirely. For example, while ethnicity is a social construct, race is not. Race is biological. Gender is biological.

However, I have learned at the university level that even race and gender are social constructs, which is insane. How can race and gender be social constructs?

I digress.

Anyway. The theory is that since ethnicity is a social construct, one's ethnicity can only be judged by language. So if I have a Slavic sounding last name and speak Slavic, that makes me Slavic.

If I have an Arabic name and/or speak Arabic, I'm Arab.

What about the French, who are indeed a Germanic people, and yet they speak Italic? What about Romanians, who speak Italic, but are not related to Italians? What about the English? This is not applicable to any of these groups.

2. The reason Macedonians are Slavs, and nothing more, is because mainstream scholars have argued that Slavic tribes, not merely Slavic speakers, descended in the Balkans in the 6th century or so from the mountains of Ukraine.

Wikipedia is full of such information.

What happened to the native non-Slavic peoples of the Balkans? They were either wiped out or merged with the larger Slavic people.

So regardless what these people call themselves today, whether Macedonian or Serbian, they are ultimately descendents of Slavic tribes.

This makes us Slavs--no different than Russians, Poles, and Ukrainians.

We are all the same people because we all descend from the same Slavic tribes.

I think these two theories helps explain the worldview of Western academy.

It doesn't help that older Macedonians still identify as Yugoslavians--southern Slavs. How many times have I heard from Macedonians that we are all the same people.

We are a curious bunch, us "Slavs".

There is no such thing as one slavic race nor is there one such thing as one arabic race.

A macedonian or even croat looks much more different to say a Russian or Polak. That alone suggests that they are not the same race and are a different people. But if you look at scandanavia all of the nordic countries the people look the same and their language is almost the same.

Then you have the language. I cant even understand Slovene which is part of the 'southern slavic' family and slovenia is geographically closer to macedonia. Yet it is very hard for me to understand. It is the same as Czech, slovak and Polish.

Even languages closer to macedonian such as serbo-croation and eastern bulgarian is rather different to macedonian.

My opinion is that the only true slavs are the russians, ukranians and belorussians and Poles. Czechs, slovaks and slovenians are almost mainly slavic but have some germanic/central european blood in them.
Once you get to croatia the more south you go the less slavic blood is in the people. Basically from this group the macedonians and bulgarians have the least slavic blood in them. I personally think Romanians maybe are even more 'slavic' then macedonians, bulgarians and maybe serbs and bosniaks - yet romanians are no considered as 'slavs'

The 'balkan slavs' are not pure slavs or proper slavs: they are mainly a balkan people with a slavic mix. Hence why i say they look different to 'real slavs' like the Ukranians.

It is the same as the arabs. The true arabs are people from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman etc. Yet you have People from Lebanon and Syria who look more european then arabic - you will find a lot of these people have fairer skin and even blonde hair or red hair. Then you take into account the 'arabs' in Northern africa who have ancient/old medeternian blood in them and also turkic blood in them. It is silly to paint all arabs with the same brush and say all arabs are the same.

But going back to physical appearances: i think macedonians look very similar to people such as bulgarians, southern serbians, (white) greeks, (white) albanians and also romanians/vlach. Basically macedonians are a balkan people while russians and slovaks are a slavic people

[Big Bad Sven]

In the end who cares what westerners think? Most are foolish and think mexicans, colombians and Spanish people are exact same race or in the same racial family.

Westerners only think macedonians are slavic/same race as russians simply because of the acronym 'FYROM' and the distant memory of Yugoslavia.

It doesnt help that greeks and albanians keep putting more fuel to the fire by questioning the macedonians identity 24/7