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Old 07-28-2010, 11:42 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Onur
If it`s an ancient language, there should have been a written text much earlier than 1462.
One would think so, although many languages only began to employ a properly codified alphabet from the medieval period, such as the Macedonians and the other Slavic-speaking people of Europe, resulting from the need for literature and biblical translations. Until then, other alphabets were used, and even other languages for official purposes.

I guess one of my questions would be, if the Albanians were in the Balkans before records began to refer to the locals as 'Slavs', then why isn't there an Albanian literature prior to that point?
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:58 PM   #112
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if the Albanians were in the Balkans before records began to refer to the locals as 'Slavs', then why isn't there an Albanian literature prior to that point?
Good Point SOM

The Albanians are divided into two tribes, Gegite and Toskite. The Gegi were in the mountains are were not educated (Ne Pismeni) so they are using the Tosk alphabet.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:51 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Epirot
1. Aspetos = A + Spet(os); 'A' is the short trait of 'asht' (mean "is" in Alb.). Even in modern times, specifically in Gheg dialect is preserved a such trait short of 'Asht' in 'A'. What's about 'Spetos'. If we drop out the last suffix 'os' the word become on 'Spet' which is an earlier form of Alb. 'Shpejtė' mean 'fast, quick' because again in Gheg dialect we find an another variation from standard form of Albanian 'Shpejtė' in 'Shpetė'. Suma Summarum after this summarized explanation we come to the central point: Aspetos is transparently equivalent with Alb. 'A shpetė',
Aspetos = A shpetė mean 'He is fast/quickly'.
I have also seen a connection proposed to the word for 'sword' in Albanian, which I will just highlight that, from the dictionaries I have seen, it is not "shpete" in Albanian, but "shpate". It is an interesting example, and it does seem possible. However, let's look at some other similarly formed words to compare. The word "shpate" looks very close to the English word 'spade', and if we look at the Albanian word for 'spade', it is a borrowing from either Macedonian, Serbian or another related language (as most Slavic langauges have a similar word for spade or shovel):

Lopata (Macedonian)
Lopate (Albanian for spade)
Shpate (Albanian for sword)

Important also is the fact that items that resemble a 'spade' have been used as weapons. If 'shpate' is an Albanian word, yet looks similar to and shares the same word ending as 'lopate', which is not an Albanian word (by origin), then how did 'shpate' come about?
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Old 07-29-2010, 03:41 AM   #114
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In respect to the Osseriates word for lake, In Macedonian is Ezero, while in Russian Ozero (Озеро).

Osseriates> Ozero (Озеро) > Ezero is quitre reasonable phonetic development, taken that the meaning is the same. It means lake! There are many morphologic examples where, the 's' character morphes to 'z'. Also the 'Osseriates' fragment is present in Macedonian language, the modern form taken 'Ezeroto' and 'Ezerata' wich denotes if plural or singular when relation to the word is builded. Example, 'Ezeroto e mirno' or 'Ezerata se mirni'.

As for the Albanian word 'Asht' meaning 'is', I know that this word is only a variation used by some educated people in Albania. The original word is 'ėshtė', where 'ė' is the dark silable similar as in Macedonian " ' " or the old Church slavonic character 'Ъ' it is a stress sighn, it is a throat voice, a form of depressed short 'E'.

It is rare to hear somebody saying 'sa asht ora?' instead you will only hear 'sa ėshtė ora?' meaning 'What time is it?'

So the whole method of explaining in the

Quote:
Aspetos = A + Spet(os); 'A' is the short trait of 'asht' (mean "is" in Alb.).
is erroneous and missleading. The 'A' represented as short trait of 'asht' is not 'waterproof' also for other reason. There is no valuable example in Albanian where 'Asht' morphes in only 'A', as far as I am aware. The root of the word is 'sht' where the 'sh' sound is development of 's' sound. It is easier to prove that 'ėshtė' can be related to the Serbian 'jeste', or the morphed Misirkov 'iетъ' which means the same, and has the same root with the German 'ist' and ultimately with the Latin 'est' which also means 'is', and can be separated as (j)este<>est<>ėshtė. The 'A' in 'asht' is only coincidence and corruption, as are the 'J' in 'jeste' etc.
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Old 07-29-2010, 06:19 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Dejan View Post
Can someone please tell me - what significant marks have the illyrians left in history? We know what the ancient Macedonians have done, and we know alot about the Roman empire, but how do the illyrians fit in the picture? Have they left a language/culture? Were they conquerers? I'm not bagging them out or anything, but I find it hard to see how they are as important/influential/relevant as other ancient civilisations who left huge traces of their culture behind. I don't know much about the history of the illyrians, but to me it sounds as though some modern nations are trying hard to find a connection to antiquity when they mention their ties with illyrians. And seeing as though not many people know about the history of the illyrians, these nations can make up whatever suits their agenda about the illyrians.
It is not fair to minimize the role of Illyrians in the civilization. Of course Illyrian text does not exist as well as in Macedonian, Epirotic, Dacian etc but this cannot serve as a validate proof that both these people were backward culturally and economically. We know for sure that if those people did not exist, the "hellenic" civilization would not be such as we know.

Quote:
Now Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians, if one reasons from the traditions themselves: Pelops brought over peoples from Phrygia to the Peloponnesus that received its name from him; and Danaüs from Egypt; whereas the Dryopes, the Caucones, the Pelasgi, the Leleges, and other such peoples, apportioned among themselves the parts that are inside the isthmus — and also the parts outside, for Attica was once held by the Thracians who came with Eumolpus, Daulis in Phocis by Tereus, Cadmeia by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and Boeotia itself by the Aones and Temmices and Hyantes. According to Pindar, there was a time when the Boeotian tribe was called "Syes." Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names — Cecrops, Codrus, Aļclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians — Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes — Epeirotic tribes.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7G*.html
Strabo based into an earlier account of Hecateus makes known that the pre-greek Greece was held by certain 'barbarian' tribes such as: Illyrians, Epirots, Thracians, Leleges, Pelasgians, Phrygians, etc. Later on after the dark age such peoples were diminished and pushed mainly northwards in the flanks of 'Greeks' which mean the line marked by Gulf of Ambracia up to the Peneus river was inhabited by Barbarians. That's the real meaning of: "though this was still more the case formerly than now".

Quote:
The Illyrians and Thracians proper all tattooed, as did the ancient Mycenians; there is evidence to show that there was a large Illyrian element in Epirus, where, as we saw above (p.94), there were many tribes which called themselves Pelasgian…We have seen that there was no sharp line between the speech of Illyrians and Thesprotians or Thessalians|

http://books.google.com/books?id=kXA...eneans&f=false
Quote:
"the Pelasg that is the people before the Hellas Greeks, were Illyrian. Their language would have been Indo-Germanic, a dialect of the Illyrian-Thracian language, and Etruskan was a later dialect of the latter. The Thracians and Illyrians would have been
the link between the central (Italic, Greek, Aryan)
and the southern (Pelasg, Luwiy, Hittite) Indo-Germanic groups".

Vladimir Ivanov Georgiev
Even Alexander the Great was conscious of the importance of these 'Barbarians':

Quote:
...Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe" (Arrian, ALEXANDRI ANABASIS, BOOK II, 7,3)
Due them Alexander's campaigns were entirely fierce and successful!
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:53 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onur View Post
But i checked the wikipedia for earliest text in Albanian. It says that the earliest Albanian text is dated at 1462!!! This is really weird. If Albanian is really descended from Illyrian language and if it shows some distinctive features then how come it`s earliest text is that recent date? If it`s an ancient language, there should have been a written text much earlier than 1462.
The oldness of a language is not determined necessary by the written document since many written languages of antiquity are extincted because of many factors. Imagine if written documents of Alexandria's library would exists in nowadays... our knowledge and conceptions about languages would be entirely different.

Quote:
In 3200 BC, there were many, many languages spoken besides Sumerian and Egyptian, but they weren't fortunate enough to have a writing system. These languages are just as old. To take one interesting case, the Albanian language (spoken north of Greece) was not written down until about the 15th century AD, yet Ptolemy mentions the people in the first century BC.* The linguistic and archaeological evidence suggests that Albanians were a distinct people for even longer than that. So Albanian has probably existed for several millennia, but has only been written down for 500 years. With a twist of fate, Albanian might be considered very "old" and Greek pretty "new".

Elizabeth Pyatt , Pennsylvania State University.

http://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/oldest.cfm
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:20 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Epirot, can you produce a copy of a charter, document, currency, etc or anything else that says "Illyrian Confederacy" from the time and realm of Bushati?
All what I posses for the moment aren't available online in net libraries and archives. Documents and references about 'Illyrian Confederacy' established by Bushati is in Albanian...so it need some time to get a proper translation that actually I am not able to do.

Quote:

1786

"An assemly of Albanian, Montenegrin and Bosnian chiefs is held in Podgorica. They decide to unite against Turks in a league called "Illyrian Confederacy" with Karamahmud Bushati Pasha as a president."

http://www.dardania.de/vb/upload/showthread.php?t=17585
Quote:
Originally posted by SoM

What signs?
Both ethnically and culturally... I guess that it is enough to remind just some glimpses.

Many maps shows a compact Albanian presence through the hinterland of Montenegro to the outskirts of Dubrovnik.



The epic songs of southern Bosnia, Montenegro and Sandjak of Novi Pazar bears a strong influence of Albanian epic songs.

Quote:
-The Albanian song has in Lika the place name of Kotorret e reja, while Boshnjak or Croatian one do not, meaning that the Albanian singer was himself in Lika.
-The Croatian poet Andrea Kaciq Mioshiq sings for indeqinous Albanian units Croats in Bosnia; most probably these units also had had their own singers.
-Serbo-Croatian studies accept that Boshnjak songs originated in the 17th century in Lika, and from there came to Bosnia, and corresponds withg the existence of Ceta of Muji and Halili there*, meaning that the Boshnjak song was created under the influence of Albanian epic song.
-The most enthusiastic s/c authors could only rationalize the spread of Boshnjak to Albania by attributing it to “boza’ and “hallva’ makers or soldiers; it is doubtful if the letter were in Bosnia, but even if they had been they had to have been from Albanian cities where no Kreshnik epic existed. With no other facts, the claim has to be considered naļve.
-The fact the Albanian cycle is cultivated in villages, and not in any village, but in Malsia, means that it had always a specific purpose, as is revealed to be the resistance against foreign occupiers.
-The fact that the Boshnjak epic is pro-Sultan and is devoted to Islam, where as the Albanian epic songs of Malsi are predominantly against Sultan points to a basic difference between the two epic song traditions.
-The fact that the Albanian epic song is motivated against kraals of Midieval Serbia some hundred years earlier than the Boshnjak epic, in reality points to the Albanian song being some hundred years older than the Boshnjak epic.
-The fact that Albanian language words are traced in Boshnjak and Croat epic songs, means that the seed of the latter come from Albanian singers, who still sing songs(at least up to the 1950’s) from the Boshnjak cycle in the Valley of Novi Pazar.
-The fact the Boshnjak epic song has an Albanian protagonist named Arnaut Osmani who is a nephew of Mui affirms that Bosnian Mui is also Albanian.
-The fact that the Serbo-Croatians have in their epic many songs, legends, ballads and motives which are common with the Arbresh of Italy, a proof that these elements are cultivated in the Albanian popular poetry before 15th century, at a time during which popular poetry was not known by the S/C.
Quote:
The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe… are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion

`Races of Europe’ Carlton S. Coon Chapter 14:The Greeks 1939
Quote:
Medieval chronicles speak of a Albanian nation stretching from highlands of Herzegovina and up to Aetolia in south. A large number of foreign geographers have specified that the border of Albania touched present day Herzegovina. Thus, the prominent Danish geographer Condrad Malte Brun (1755-1826) writes that: “No geographer has determined the extent of Arnaoutlik, a country that borders on Rascia, Macedonia and Bosnia”.
Quote:
Edmund Spencer says:

In personal appearance the mountaineers of Tchernegora rather resemble their neighbors in Albania, than their brethren in Servia; there is the same nervous, lofty form, animated expression, and a certain degree of saucy audacity in their manners and bearing; they have also imbibed from their neighbors many of their customs and manners, particularly the belief in retributive justice, and that blood can only be expiated by blood, consequently sanguinary conflicts frequently break out between different tribes‘.
Quote:
Originally posted by SoM

Do you agree with Skene in this regard?
No I don't agree! The supposed Caucasian origin of Albanians it is just an obsolete and out-dated hypothesis that took places among some Romantic writers that thought coincidence of names as a validate proof of origin of Albanians. History afford no record of any arrival of Albanians in Balkans.

Quote:
Originally posted by SoM

Which ancient authors specifically speak of the Epirotes as an Illyrian tribe?
Not directly but implicitly many ancients emphasize the kinship between Illyrians and Epirots. There is no clear frontier between Epirus and Illyria or all "distinctions" of Illyria from Epirus is geographical rather then ethnical. Many Illyrian tribes were in some cases are recognized as Epirotic.

Quote:
The Illyrians and Thracians proper all tattooed, as did the ancient Mycenians; there is evidence to show that there was a large Illyrian element in Epirus, where, as we saw above (p.94), there were many tribes which called themselves Pelasgian…We have seen that there was no sharp line between the speech of Illyrians and Thesprotians or Thessalians|

http://books.google.com/books?id=kXA...eneans&f=false
Quote:
The penetration of the Illyrians into northern Greece in the twelfth century BC led to the decay of the flourishing Mycenaean culture and to a complete upheaval in Greek political history. First, Epirus and Aetolia were engulfed by the wave of the Illyrian invasion.
Epirus which had been in greater part Hellenized and whose religious center was the sanctuary of Zeus in Dodona, became once more Illyrian. Aetolia, a flourishing land in Homeric times, lapsed into almost complete barbarism. A great many of the Aetolians crossed the Corinthian Gulf, subjected the native Greek population, and settled in the land which became known as Elis.

(~Early Christian and Byzantine political philosophy ~ Francis Dvornķk - 1966)
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:27 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by makedonin View Post
It is rare to hear somebody saying 'sa asht ora?' instead you will only hear 'sa ėshtė ora?' meaning 'What time is it?'

The 'A' represented as short trait of 'asht' is not 'waterproof' also for other reason. There is no valuable example in Albanian where 'Asht' morphes in only 'A', as far as I am aware.
In the Tosc dialect the respective word for "is" is 'ėshtė' but in Gheg dialect (that bears more archaic traits) is 'asht'. As I expanded previously in some remote northern regions (Shkoder, Pukė, Mirditė) even in Kosova (Drenicė region) 'asht' is contracted in 'a'. They do not say for instance 'Sa asht ora' (What time is it?) but 'Sa a ora'.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:07 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
As I expanded previously in some remote northern regions (Shkoder, Pukė, Mirditė) even in Kosova (Drenicė region) 'asht' is contracted in 'a'. They do not say for instance 'Sa asht ora' (What time is it?) but 'Sa a ora'.
Words regression is known to be modern version of archaic words. So, even if I take your word that it is 'Sa a ora' in some remote regions, that would still be a new corruption and regression of 'ashtė' which again is corruption or dialectial feature of 'ėshtė'.

It is rather simple to follow it.

The root of the word is 'st' as in Latin 'est', German 'ist', Serbian 'Jeste', Romanian 'este', French 'est' even the corrupted Spanish 'es' or the corrupted English 'is', all meaning the same, 'is'. Even the Macedonian 'e' is corrupted version of the same root 'st' and comes from the old church slavonic version of it, as 'jes-' for the verb 'be'.

Since Latin can be dated through sources the other words can be compared and their corruption and development can be followed. That is why they are called IE languages. They share same roots. So you compare relative new regression of the word and take it as if being ancient, wich is achronological and bears no logic.

There are two possibilities for the puzzling 'A' in your word, either it is the Greek negation as in the words 'asynchronus' , 'achronological ' etc.

Or

Alpha may be long or short and is pronounced O as in "not." as proposed here:

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/pronunciation.html

According to that pronounciation preposition, your word 'Aspetos' will be pronounced something like 'Ospetos'.
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:42 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Epirot
All what I posses for the moment aren't available online in net libraries and archives. Documents and references about 'Illyrian Confederacy' established by Bushati is in Albanian...so it need some time to get a proper translation that actually I am not able to do.
Epirot, in the absence of such evidence or a credible citation that makes reference to such evidence, how are we to confirm the validity of your statement?
Quote:
Both ethnically and culturally... I guess that it is enough to remind just some glimpses.
Unfortunately, the statement on its own is not enough without corroboration.
Quote:
No I don't agree! The supposed Caucasian origin of Albanians it is just an obsolete and out-dated hypothesis that took places among some Romantic writers that thought coincidence of names as a validate proof of origin of Albanians. History afford no record of any arrival of Albanians in Balkans.
But Skene is the source you initially used to indicate Albanian living space in Hercegovina, is it not? In fact, he bases the 'look' of the Albanians on people from the Caucasus. I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory for your people, but this is coming from your own source, for which you should have had counter-arguments already prepared.
Quote:
Many Illyrian tribes were in some cases are recognized as Epirotic.
Which tribes?
Quote:
The penetration of the Illyrians into northern Greece in the twelfth century BC led to the decay of the flourishing Mycenaean culture and to a complete upheaval in Greek political history. First, Epirus and Aetolia were engulfed by the wave of the Illyrian invasion.
Epirus which had been in greater part Hellenized and whose religious center was the sanctuary of Zeus in Dodona, became once more Illyrian. Aetolia, a flourishing land in Homeric times, lapsed into almost complete barbarism. A great many of the Aetolians crossed the Corinthian Gulf, subjected the native Greek population, and settled in the land which became known as Elis.

(~Early Christian and Byzantine political philosophy ~ Francis Dvornķk - 1966)
This quote seems to be suggesting that the Dorians were in fact Illyrians. Do you agree with that suggestion?

Epirot, what is your opinion on why Macedonians use a cognate for the Illyrian word 'osseriates'? It cannot possibly be a loanword because the Russians and Czechs also use the same word. So how is this possible, unless Illyrian is a tongue related to those later known as 'Slavic'?
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