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Old 12-27-2008, 01:56 AM   #11
Spartan
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My motivation for posting this again was due to a conversation with a modern 'Greek' that I had recently. Both his parent originated from the island of Symi just off the Turkish coast yet he had a tattoo of a ancient Spartan with the words 'Molon Labia" right across his back which he was very proud of. He was bragging about his great 'Greek' Byzantine heritage and how much he wanted to take Istanbul back from the Turks. He was also bitching about how the 'boxheads' were trying to steal his 'Macedonian' heritage from him as well.

Some of these modern Greeks are truelly a dilusional bunch, bereft of reality.
Funny you mention that, I cant stand when other Greeks get tatoos of Spartan things.Its a "pet peeve" of mine, and Ill never understand it.
It would be like me getting a tatoo of Alexander.
About the line of the Byzantine emporors, Im pretty sure the Paleologos line (the last few emperors on the list)was Greek.

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Palaeologus

From: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition | Date: 2008 | The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright 2008 Columbia University Press. (Hide copyright information) Copyright information

Palaeologus ,Greek dynasty that ruled the Byzantine Empire from its restoration in 1261 to its final conquest by the Turks in 1453. The first emperor was Michael VIII , restorer of the empire. He was succeeded by Andronicus II (reigned 1282-1328) and Andronicus III (reigned 1328-41). John V acceded in 1341, but was kept from the throne until 1354 by John VI (John Cantacuzene) and from 1376 until 1379 by his son, Andronicus IV. At his death (1391) Manuel II succeeded and ruled until 1425; he had to share his rule with John VII after 1399. Manuel's sons John VIII (reigned 1425-48) and Constantine XI (reigned 1449-53) succeeded him. Constantine XI was killed when the Turks stormed Constantinople. Branches of the Palaeologus family survived in various European countries. One branch ruled the Italian marquisate of Montferrat from the 14th cent. until the family's extinction in 1536. Distinguished for their erudition, the Palaeologi helped the Greek people to retain their cultural identity after their conquest by the Ottoman Turks. As statesmen they had to contend with the pressure of the Turks and with the reluctance of Western Europe to come to the aid of the Orthodox Greeks. Their rule marked the high point of feudalism, partitions of the empire, and internal conflict between religious and secular groups.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Palaeolo.html
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:20 AM   #12
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spartan i have a nephew ie son of a second cousin, his father from the republic his mum 1/4 prosfiga 3/4 dopia, he tells his friends he is a spartan, despite the ski tacked onto the end of his surname.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:25 AM   #13
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spartan i have a nephew ie son of a second cousin, his father from the republic his mum 1/4 prosfiga 3/4 dopia, he tells his friends he is a spartan, despite the ski tacked onto the end of his surname.

The right to self-indentify needs to be revised for some cases I think my friend

I blame it on that horrible rendition of a movie (300)
Probably lots of kids are pulling this now-a-days.....

Last edited by Spartan; 12-27-2008 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:25 AM   #14
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Spartan, the Columbia source simplifies descriptions and information which renders it historically inaccurate.
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Palaeologus ,Greek dynasty that ruled the Byzantine Empire..........
I think this dynasty was from the Macedonia Theme, which could make them of Armenian or Slavic-speaking descent. Is there any source which goes into detail where it concerns their origins, or are their actions to preserve their empire enough to draw a conclusive 'ethnicity'?
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Distinguished for their erudition, the Palaeologi helped the Greek people to retain their cultural identity after their conquest by the Ottoman Turks.............
The Palaeologi did their best to maintain the cultural identity of the East Romans, the citizens of East Rome did not consider themselves 'Greeks' or 'Hellenes'.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:40 AM   #15
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Spartan, the Columbia source simplifies descriptions and information which renders it historically inaccurate.

I think this dynasty was from the Macedonia Theme, which could make them of Armenian or Slavic-speaking descent. Is there any source which goes into detail where it concerns their origins, or are their actions to preserve their empire enough to draw a conclusive 'ethnicity'?
I actually have read that there are "roots" from Macedonia of the first fathers of the Paleologos line.
My point(I should have been clearer, sorry) was that the last emperors from that line were from Mistras(Laconia), and many of their fore fathers had taken Greek wives(Its a pretty long line).
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The Palaeologi did their best to maintain the cultural identity of the East Romans, the citizens of East Rome did not consider themselves 'Greeks' or 'Hellenes'.
With all due respect, there are many sources/historians who would disagree with your above statement SoM, but Id rather not get into that. I respect your view, but Im sure this issue has been thouroughly debated enough on these forums, and we all know the road which this topic will lead us very well
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:08 AM   #16
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My good Spartan, I invite you, in the context of a polite discussion, to reveal to me any texts which indicate that the citizens of East Rome considered themselves 'Greeks' or 'Hellenes'.

You are aware of what the term 'Greek' represented and still represents (when discussing issues of that era) with regard to East Rome?
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Old 12-28-2008, 03:15 PM   #17
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The Byzantine Empire was as multi-ethnic as the Roman Empire. However, the prevailing language and culture were Greek/and Greco-Roman and Latin/Roman respectively regardless of a person's ethnic background.

With regard to how Greek the Byzantine Empire was, I will say that after the coronation of Charlemagne in 800AD as "Holy Roman Emperor", the kingdoms in Western Europe typically referred to the "Byzantine" Empire as Empire of the Greeks and the Byzantine Emperor as Emperor of the Greeks. Of course this annoyed greatly the Byzantine rulers who saw themselves as the true and legitimate heirs to the Romans.

With regard to the last emperor of Byzantium (Constantine Palaiologos) I never recall reading he was of Armenian extract, but instead of Greek (father's side) and Serbian (mother's side) background.

Greeks today seen themselves as the inheritors of Byzantine Empire owning to it predominately Greek language and culture, just as the Italians see themselves as the inheritors of the Roman Empire, the Turks to the Ottoman Empire, and the Arabs to the Arabian Caliphate Empire.

In all cases the Empires were multi-ethnic, but there was a predominate language and culture in all of them.
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:00 PM   #18
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Greeks today seen themselves as the inheritors of Byzantine Empire owning to it predominately Greek language and culture, just as the Italians see themselves as the inheritors of the Roman Empire, the Turks to the Ottoman Empire, and the Arabs to the Arabian Caliphate Empire.
See that is how Macedonians seen themselves as the inheritors of Macedonian Empire!
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:11 PM   #19
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See that is how Macedonians seen themselves as the inheritors of Macedonian Empire!
Sarafot,

How did the Eastern part of the Roman Empire (Byzantium) end up having a Greek language and culture?
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:19 PM   #20
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Sarafot,

How did the Eastern part of the Roman Empire (Byzantium) end up having a Greek language and culture?
Which one? You mean that, which you start learning it in 1870? Instead of Arnavtika,Macedonian and Vlahs??
Acctualy the real Aromanian-Vlahs,with that i mean descedents of Bysantine(East Roman) empire are VLAHS-VLAHI-VLASI,with the name of a countrey ROMAN-IA,lend of ROMANS!!
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