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Old 03-06-2020, 01:34 AM   #201
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Ibn Khaldun (1332 – 1406) was a leading Tunisian Muslim historiographer and historian. He is widely considered as a forerunner of the modern disciplines of historiography, sociology, economics, and demography.

URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun

According to Ibn Khaldun (English translation by Daniel G. König):

"The Arabs of this period did not know the Franks. In Syria (al-Shām), they had only fought the Byzantines (al-Rūm). Because of this, they believed that they [the Byzantines] ruled over all Christian peoples (umam al-naṣrāniyya), and that Heraclius (Hiraql) was the ruler over the entire Christian world (al-naṣrāniyya). Consequently, they imposed the name al-Rūm on all Christian peoples."
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Old 03-30-2020, 09:43 AM   #202
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Modern Greek legends about ancient Greeks.

Here’s what the villagers near Delphi thought, for instance (“page 39”):

"The Mylords (= English aristocrats on the Grand Tour) are no Christians: nobody has ever seen them make the sign of the cross. They are descended from the old pagans, the Adelphians, who kept their treasure in a fortress called Adelphi “Brothers”, named after the two brother princes who had built it. When the Virgin Mary and Christ came to this land and all the people around became Christians, the Adelphians thought it best if they left; and they left for the West and took all their riches with them. The Mylords are their descendants, and that’s why they come now on pilgrimage to these stones."

Or from Epirus (“page 35–36”)

"In the olden times, people were huge. Hugest of all were the Hellenes. They were evil people, so God sent some huge mosquitoes with iron stings to hunt them down. People would only go out at night, when the mosquitoes slept, and at dawn before sun-up, and in the evening right after sun-down. The rest of the day they’d sit underground. They’d built dwellings there where just one person would fit; they had their bread, their water in bottles, their lamps, and whatever else they needed. But they couldn’t live shut in all day, and so they perished one by one. Nowadays people dig and find their houses, and stone chests. Within, they find their bones, lamps, pitchers, and whatever else."

And the Parthenon is not exempt. No, not the tale of the Caryatids crying when Lord Elgin stole one of them (though that’s there too). But of the steps up the Acropolis, published in 1871 (“page 26”).

In Athens people believe that the tall stairs up to the Parthenon are a sure testimony of how large the Hellenes were. They say that the Hellenes would go up and down those stairs with no effort. They are unaware that those stairs were used for people to rest, and that there were smaller steps placed among the larger steps for people going uphill.

http://jungle-report.blogspot.com/20...st_15.html?m=1

Last edited by tchaiku; 03-30-2020 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:05 PM   #203
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This seems to be very important. I'll check if it is in Wikipedia.
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Old 03-30-2020, 07:15 PM   #204
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This seems to be very important. I'll check if it is in Wikipedia.
Then it will be a fact, same as much of the Greek ramblings I imagine.
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Old 03-30-2020, 07:37 PM   #205
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Amphipolis, would you be so kind as to add the following to Wikipedia and cite accordingly?

1) URL - Ancient Greeks in the Modern Greek Folk Tradition, Pavlína Šípová:
https://www.academia.edu/590009/Anci...Folk_Tradition

"In the period of the Greek Middle Ages — if it is possible to apply that term at all with reference to Greece — there was no affinity in the collective mind of Greeks for ancient Greece: the term Hellene/Greek denoted strictly a pagan, and this meaning of the word has been preserved, e.g. in some areas of Crete, right to the end of the 20th century: If one talks about Hellenes (Greeks) in Sfakia in Crete, what he means is idolaters. The word Hellene is documented in Albanian as well: Elin-I, a designation for a heathen."

2) URL - ROMANITY, OR BARBARITY?, Anastasios Philippides:
https://spacezilotes.wordpress.com/2...barity-%CE%B4/
http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia...yni/perieh.htm

"What most of the people believed about the “Hellenes”, before becoming “enlightened” by western Europeans, has been recorded by I. Th. Kakrides in his invaluable study on folklore “The Ancient Hellenes in the neo-Hellenic Popular Tradition”. Very briefly, the average person – up to and including the beginning of the 20th century – believed that the Hellenes were an ancient, idolatrous population of giants. This is the way they also explained the existence of the oversized monuments that used to abound in our land.

These ancient people were admired for their strength (in 19th-century Cephalonia island, Kakrides mentions that the inhabitants had an expression “hey, this guy is like a Hellene!”), but they certainly did not identify themselves with them. Besides, the author referred to them as “Hellenes” and not “Ancient Hellenes”, obviously because there was no chance that they would be confused with another contemporary nation."

Last edited by Carlin15; 03-30-2020 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 03-30-2020, 09:57 PM   #206
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I am all for removing crap from Wikipedia for as along it's done equally for everyone.
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Old 03-31-2020, 07:15 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin15 View Post
the term Hellene/Greek denoted strictly a pagan, and this meaning of the word has been preserved[/b], e.g. in some areas of Crete, right to the end of the 20th century: If one talks about Hellenes (Greeks) in Sfakia in Crete, what he means is idolaters. The word Hellene is documented in Albanian as well: Elin-I, a designation for a heathen."
And then you check the article and you find out these most impressive and unbelievable parts are the ones with no references. The first part is impossible for 20th Century Sfakia, for... there are no "idolaters" anymore and no one would call them Hellenes in Greece anyway.

I can't speak Albanian, but the second part, for some reason, smells bullshit too.

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Very briefly, the average person – up to and including the beginning of the 20th century – believed that the Hellenes were an ancient, idolatrous population of giants. This is the way they also explained the existence of the oversized monuments that used to abound in our land.

These ancient people were admired for their strength (in 19th-century Cephalonia island, Kakrides mentions that the inhabitants had an expression “hey, this guy is like a Hellene!”), but they certainly did not identify themselves with them. Besides, the author referred to them as “Hellenes” and not “Ancient Hellenes”, obviously because there was no chance that they would be confused with another contemporary nation."
Hell no! The exact phrase

"Very briefly, the average person – up to and including the beginning of the 20th century – believed that the Hellenes were an ancient, idolatrous population of giants"

is not just wrong, or 99% wrong, but 100% wrong. The era of (around) 1900 is well recorded, and there was nobody who believed that... ancient Greeks were giants. There are ancient Greek myths and there were indeed legends in antiquity including giants, but that is a totally different thing than the above phrase.

People DID believe in the grandeur of ancient Greeks and their... (not gigantic) but bright achievement, they didn't believe in the existence of giants.
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Old 04-01-2020, 08:32 AM   #208
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Did the lower class (i.e the vast majority of Greece) knew about the grandeur of ancient Greeks in 1821? Many of those myths might have roots in the Dark Ages when ''Hellene'' was used as an inslut for a pagan.

I am pretty sure you could find some few people in Trebizond indentifying with the old Greeks, not only in the Ottoman Period but also in the Medieval times but it does not change the fact that the ethnic compostion of the Empire was in fact overwhelmingly Lazo-Armenian and even the Greek speakers (that were to become) had a Roman indentity.
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Old 04-01-2020, 10:36 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tchaiku View Post
Did the lower class (i.e the vast majority of Greece) knew about the grandeur of ancient Greeks in 1821?
Certainly YES. The real question is WHAT EXACTLY they knew about it.

It becomes more complicated if you see this video with modern (forcibly educated) Greeks, with full free acccess to all knowledge, information and data, that cannot find Greece in the world map. Their answers (why do you think you cannot find it?) are even more showing on their stupidity and ignorance.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etrFkxe1eSY
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Old 04-01-2020, 11:07 AM   #210
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OK, but how does that contradict the fairytale of Greek villagers near Delphi, especially considering they associated old Greeks with the Westerners.

Even old Greeks attributed some of their works of their Bronze Age predecessors to Cyclopes:
''There still remain, however, parts of the city wall [of Mycenae], including the gate, upon which stand lions. These, too, are said to be the work of the Cyclopes, who made for Proetus the wall at Tiryns. (2.16.5) Going on from here and turning to the right, you come to the ruins of Tiryns. ... The wall, which is the only part of the ruins still remaining, is a work of the Cyclopes made of unwrought stones, each stone being so big that a pair of mules could not move the smallest from its place to the slightest degree. Long ago small stones were so inserted that each of them binds the large blocks firmly together.(2.25.8)''
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