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Old 02-03-2012, 05:29 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
That's fine and I completely agree with you that a nation or national identity is not defined by 'blood' or descent. I also have no problem with Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs, Armenians and others having Greek ethnic consciousness and identity. I would also say there is nothing wrong with a Vlach or Albanian claiming or believing he is a direct descendant of Pericles or Alexander: it may be delusional, but not illegal or wrong.

Conflict and other problems arise when modern Greeks (themselves of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic descent) and Greece as a State deny this same right of self-identification to their neighbors.
Carlin this problem is fairly new in the grand scheme of things. In the early century most people did not take notice. There was an Abecdar alphabet ? Dont know remember the details. Also Makedonika or SlavoMakedonika was widely used and the notion of a "Skopian" was non existant. This is all political nowadays and many events has transpired until today which does complicate things. Its a different subject altogether.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:53 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Voltron
Linguists do agree that the dialect is Doric based.
It may just be a simplified form of Koine, albeit with some possible Doric and other influences.
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Its a shame we cant keep this dialect alive. We receive criticism of not supporting other minorites languages and we cant even support our own.
Certainly says something about the policies of your successive governments over the last 200 years.
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There has been studies conducted by anthrolopogists that support a Hellenic descent for some of these Vlach groups.
Based on what?
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The same way a Berzite or Draguvite becomes a Macedonian.
If Macedonians have a Slavic element, then that is at best akin to only one of the Slavic, Albanian and Vlach elements in Greeks.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:50 PM   #183
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Greece embrace your Shiptari heritage
Everyone who is Shqipetar is PROUD!
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:56 AM   #184
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Certainly says something about the policies of your successive governments over the last 200 years.
Yes it does, it says that it is due to negligence and lack of resources than anything else.

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Based on what?
Wiki and other online info and references

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If Macedonians have a Slavic element, then that is at best akin to only one of the Slavic, Albanian and Vlach elements in Greeks.
Not an if, we all have a Slavic element. No use in denying it. We also both have Vlach elements. The Arvanites are more related to Greece than Macedonia as the Arbaresh are for Italy. But they are a small number to make a real impact in the overall population. Nonetheless we consider them Greeks as they themselves do.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:48 PM   #185
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good that you are admitting your slavic roots.you saying that greece has been negligent but doesn't go far enough in it's past dealings with the macedonians i woulsd say it's more than mere negligence its more like wilfull & you can add attrocities & genocide on the people anything else is unacceptable.Just remember just as you are greek & you are slav as well.(greek questionable)
We are macedonians without the slav prefix.
Voltron you mention before how you suffered under the turks we suffered even more under the greeks why not admit it why deny what your
stupid govt did??

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Old 02-06-2012, 09:44 PM   #186
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Yes it does, it says that it is due to negligence and lack of resources than anything else.
What resources are they lacking that any other normal country out there has to ensure their minorities are provided (at least partial) education in their ancestral languages?
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Wiki and other online info and references
Wiki isn't a source. Please provide something credible if you are going to make a claim for the Vlachs on behalf of Greece.
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Not an if, we all have a Slavic element. No use in denying it.
I don't deny it, I was only providing context at the beginning of the question.
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We also both have Vlach elements.
The Vlach element in Macedonians is a minor spec compared to that in Greeks. You can't even compare the two.
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The Arvanites are more related to Greece than Macedonia as the Arbaresh are for Italy. But they are a small number to make a real impact in the overall population. Nonetheless we consider them Greeks as they themselves do.
They are a significant element, even if only a few of them identify as Albanians/Arvanites these days. And irrespective of what your state has forced them to consider themselves, we all know what they were originally and why they aren't that any longer. The ancestors of these people didn't naturally evolve into Greeks, most were 'coerced' to become Greeks. Just like the Vlachs, Macedonians and others.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:33 AM   #187
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What resources are they lacking that any other normal country out there has to ensure their minorities are provided (at least partial) education in their ancestral languages?
You misunderstood me, even if we had the resources I wouldnt want minority languages being taught in the first place. I dont feel that should be ensured by any country, unless those minorities do not have a country to go to. I was commenting that even though we should protect our own dialects we dont. Salme resources that are lacking all across this country from infrastructure to services.

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Wiki isn't a source. Please provide something credible if you are going to make a claim for the Vlachs on behalf of Greece.
No, but its a reference. Im not making a claim on their behalf, they are for themselves.

http://www.farsarotul.org/NL31_6.htm

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They are a significant element, even if only a few of them identify as Albanians/Arvanites these days. And irrespective of what your state has forced them to consider themselves, we all know what they were originally and why they aren't that any longer. The ancestors of these people didn't naturally evolve into Greeks, most were 'coerced' to become Greeks. Just like the Vlachs, Macedonians and others.
I doubt they are anymore than 15 percent of the total population. In terms of our history yes they are significant. In terms of numbers not so much. They were only heavily populated in certain areas, not across the whole country. I also disagree they were forcred into anything. I find it hard to beleive we can successfully assimilate 3 ethnic groups forcibly without so much as a whimper.
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Old 02-07-2012, 10:20 AM   #188
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Voltron you are either in denial or you have been so insular that you don't know what really went on.The govt does what it likes(greece) it doesn't give too hoots about human rights etc.It will force anyone to comply eg not to speak macedonian,by beatings ,jailings,expulsion etc.We have got heaps of cases of cases where that's happened. forcible Expulsion of populations,denationalization of populations.I don't know if you know about the 1925 abcedar where greece promised to teach the population macedonian & reneged.Forced assimilation of macedonians by change of names & forced to go to greek schools.
Attrocities & genocide on the population,Burning of 100,000 of houses of macedonian people.Occupation by the military etc stc.If you read stuff not supplied by your govt you will see what's going on.
What do you expect when people are oppressed & are sujugated.Today it looks odd to you that people dom't speak out.

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Old 02-07-2012, 07:30 PM   #189
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...........even if we had the resources I wouldnt want minority languages being taught in the first place.
You make a good little fascist, your Führer would have been proud of you.
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Im not making a claim on their behalf, they are for themselves.

http://www.farsarotul.org/NL31_6.htm
All of those Vlachs know that they are a group with origins distinct from others in Greece, despite their deluded perception on ethnicity.
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They were only heavily populated in certain areas, not across the whole country.
How much do you think they were at the beginning of the 19th century, on the territory that originally came to form the Greek kingdom?
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I also disagree they were forcred into anything.
You question if they were forced. Did they at any point have a choice after independence was achieved? They fought in a religious war of Christians against Muslims alongside Greeks in the 1820's. They earned their keep and felt that they are the progenitors of the new nation alongside the Greeks. However, they weren't self-loathing peoples fighting for the creation of a 'Hellenic' state where their ethnicities, languages and cultures would be disregarded. Many of them were bound to want education in their own languages given their extensive use across the region, not just in private but also unofficially in politics, the military, etc.
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I find it hard to beleive we can successfully assimilate 3 ethnic groups forcibly without so much as a whimper.
Without a whimper? You're being naive. You need to start using the search function on this forum a bit more frequently. Start with the first page of this thread and the desire of Greeks to suppress the use of Albanian almost 100 years after independence was established.
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Old 02-07-2012, 10:18 PM   #190
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I find it hard to beleive we can successfully assimilate 3 ethnic groups forcibly without so much as a whimper.

Without a whimper? You're being naive. You need to start using the search function on this forum a bit more frequently. Start with the first page of this thread and the desire of Greeks to suppress the use of Albanian almost 100 years after independence was established.



After everything I have read over the last few years, I am 99.9% convinced that modern Greeks are mostly of Vlach, and to a lesser degree Albanian and Slav descent. Other elements can't be discounted as well, such as Armenians or Turks (after all, what were Turkish-speaking Orthodox Christians, if not simply 'Turks'?), which lived all over Asia Minor, Cyprus, Crete, and the Balkans.

Although the previous statement seems 'extremist' I say it out of respect towards Voltron and Greeks as a whole. It is based on facts and evidence, not speculation. I mean, there is not much counter argument to the fact that I am reading a document, with my own eyes, where it says that even as late as 1850's the Peloponnese was inhabited by Vlachs and Albanians. (Where were the ethnic Hellenes? Or were/did Vlachs and Albanians become 'ethnic Hellenes' themselves?)

As Thalia Dragonas (secretary general of the Greek Ministry of Education) wrote in her book "What is our country?": the Greek national identity did not exist before the 19th century. It was created from outside in an era of intense nationalism, colonialism and expansionist imperialism.

"Ethnic identity" is a matter of ideology anyway and is based on "faith" more than anything else (it's like a modern day religion). The process of "assimilation" would be better termed "creation" or "invention" as all nations are modern and constructed. The role of the printing press and language is also quite significant and is at the root of Nationalism in general (read Anderson and Geary on this topic... see passages below as en example).

Nations were created by small elites at a time when most ordinary people did not care... Invention nations, along with spurious myths to anchor them them, was a popular recreation among educated Europeans in the 19th century. Greece was no different.

A useful link I would recommend is:
http://www.nationalismproject.org/what.htm

Recommended books (which I have read, or partially read..) are:
- Eric Hobsbawm: "Nations and Nationalism Since 1780", "The Invention of Tradition".
- Benedict Anderson: "Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism".
- Shlomo Sand: "The Invention of the Jewish People".
- Patrick J. Geary: "The Myth of Nations: The Medieval Origins of Europe" http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7124.html


PS:
Patrick J. Geary -

"Across Europe, the pernicious effects of the philological method of identifying people by language were myriad. First, the infinite gradations of broad linguistic groups in Europe were chopped up by scientific rules into separate languages. Since the spoken and written realities never corresponded exactly to these artificial rules, "official" forms - usually systematized versions of a local dialect, often of a politically powerful group or important city - were invented and imposed through state-sponsored educational systems."

"...virtual invention of languages, including not only such obvious cases as Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Slovine, Latvian, Hebrew, Norwegian, Irish, Dutch, and Romanian, but, in more subtle ways German and Italian as well."

"Even in a country such as France...probably not much more than 50 percent of French men and women spoke French as their native language in 1900. Others spoke a variety of Romance languages and dialects, while in Britanny, Alsace and Lorraine, Celtic and Germanic languages predominated."

Last edited by Carlin; 02-07-2012 at 10:48 PM.
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