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Old 06-12-2019, 09:50 AM   #11
Karposh
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Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
Macedonia until really the reign of Philip II was divided into 'Upper' and 'Lower'. Lower Macedonians were town dwellers in lived in the flat fertile planes whilst Upper Macedonians lived in the mountains and were mostly tribal Illyrians.
LoM, come on brother - what are you doing? Please take a step back my friend and proof read your posts before you press send. If you're not quoting from the Greek propaganda handbook (The Macedonian Kingdom itself was not homogenous), you're quoting from the Shiptar propaganda handbook (Upper Macedonians lived in the mountains and were mostly tribal Illyrians).

When Greeks aren't claiming Ancient Macedonia as one of their city states, they try to muddy the waters by claiming the Macedonian Kingdom was not homogeneous but a mixture of various peoples, with Greek speakers making up the majority. The rest of the "Macedonians" were apparently diglossi they claim (i.e. bilinguals) to help explain away certain sections in ancient literature that goes against their claims.

As for the Shiptari, their whole argument for claims on Macedonia is based on the idea that the Ancient Macedonians were Illyrians and that they, as the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians are the rightful owners of Macedonia.

Upper Macedonia was made up of various regions including:

Dassaretia - Ohridsko bordering Illyria. The capital was the ancient town of Lychnidos (i.e. Ohrid). The Dassareti were not an Illyrian tribe but an integral Macedonian tribe that made up the Ancient Macedonian nation.

Orestis - Kostursko. The Orestians were not an Illyrian tribe but an integral Macedonian tribe that made up the Ancient Macedonian nation.

Pelagonia - Prilepsko, Krushevsko and Mariovsko (including parts of Bitolsko and Lerinsko). The capital of this region seems to be have been the recently discovered ruins in Staro Bonche (Mariovsko). The Pelagonians were not an Illyrian tribe but an integral Macedonian tribe that made up the Ancient Macedonian nation.

Lynkestis - Bitolsko, Lerinsko and Prespa. The word means "land of the lynx" which makes sense, seeing how a small but thriving population of these elusive felines still call Mt. Pelister their home. The region's capital seems to have been Heraklea Lynkestis while the Lynkestians, themselves, were not an Illyrian tribe but just another Macedonian tribe that was also absorbed into the Macedonian kingdom.

The other regions that made up the rest of Upper Macedonia are Tymphaia, Deuriopus, Atintania, Elimeia and Eordaea, all of which are located in the western half of Aegean Macedonia.

Phillip II didn't just tack on any Balkan region to the expanding Macedonian kingdom but, as logic would dictate, people with similar ethnic traits, culture, language and traditions. The Macedonian Kingdom stretched all the way north along the Danube River and north-east into the Danube Delta Estuary on the Black Sea. But that doesn't mean he incorporated all these regions into Macedonia proper. There were Balkan regions that he obviously couldn't incorporate into Macedonia proper because of overarching communal differences or even outright hostility. He turned these into Vassal states rather than incorporate them into Macedonia. In time, even the kingdom of Paeonia, which sat just north of Lynkestis became a part of Macedonia proper and my guess is that this was facilitated by, again, the similarities between the two peoples.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:24 AM   #12
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Not basing this information on anything written by Greeks or Albanians, basing it on other stuff I've read over the years. I fail to see how acknowledging the lack of uniformity in the population of Ancient Macedonia somehow weakens our claims and plays into the hands of our enemies?

Macedonia was founded as a union of multiple different tribes and the kingdom expanded to incorporate other peoples over the centuries. It's a given that the population was heterogenous.
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Old 04-08-2020, 06:46 AM   #13
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Karposh, I agree with you that they were Macedonian tribes as they were absorbed into Ancient Macedonia and were effectively part of the Macedonian nation. But, before these tribes were absorbed into the Macedonian kingdom, were they considered a Macedonian tribe? And also what were their origins?

I’ve read that Strabo called the Lynkestians a Greek Epirote tribe that were absorbed into the Macedonian kingdom and thus became Macedonians overtime. Not sure how this can work when a lot of the Macedonians were known to be iliterate with Koine during the 4-5th century BC and also had their own oral Ancient Macedonian language of which they only used and understood that the Greeks didn’t understand at all. Possibly they were a hybrid tribe?

Possibly Strabo stated this because the Lynkestians were supposedly known to claim mythical descent to Hercules (as many ancient peoples did) and with this had to construct a fake mythical story relating themselves to the Bacchiad Kings from the Peloponnese that were ‘expelled’, in order to ‘prove their claim.’

I’d like to know more about the Macedonian tribes before the Macedonian kingdom was formed and in general about the history of the Macedonian people before the kingdom was formed. I’ve seen Macedonians say ‘we’ve existed as a distinct nation since 8th century BC’. That’s great, but who were we before, what’s the history of the Macedonians before the Macedonian kingdom? Are we descendants of the Pelasgians or the Phrygians? Many questions/discussions to be made.

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Old 04-08-2020, 10:36 AM   #14
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I doubt you'll find any answers to those questions Chicho, the information on Macedonia itself before Philip II is limited enough, information on the pre-kingdom tribal people is semi-mythical at best.
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Old 04-09-2020, 07:05 PM   #15
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Hi guys, Macedonian history was written many hundreds of years after the events, mainly from Roman influence. From Carlin' s post "One such example might be Lyncestis, which the English Wikipedia entry describes as being ruled by wealthy kings which traced their origins to the Bacchiad kings that were expelled from Corinth in the 7th century BC. There seems to be no way to verify any of these mythical claims; they were likely invented to "justify" the rule of the kings over their subjects."I believe this is first mentioned by Stabro in 60 AD. As for Alexander 1 there is no written record of his entrance into the Olympics or his listing as a winner. I highly doubt this happened at all. The ancient Macedonian gods had different names from the Greek gods. The ancient cities like Heraclea in Bitola is written in Roman. Was it known as Heraclea or Arteus during ancient times? We just do not know. Hopefully as more discoveries aremade in the Republic we can gain a better picture.
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Old 04-09-2020, 11:24 PM   #16
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A plausible argument (which most here, no doubt, have heard about) exists for Brygian being the main ethnic component in the ethno-genesis of the Ancient Macedonians. Credible arguments have been put forward by a number of historians, in particular, Macedonian historian, Nade Proeva in her book Studies of The Ancient Macedonians for this being the case. When I find some time I’ll go through some of those arguments, suffice to say for now, that Brygian seems to have been the main ethnic component of many of the Balkan peoples/tribes mentioned in ancient times that lived within the confines of the generally accepted boundaries of the modern Macedonian geographic area. Besides the Macedonians, these included the Paeonians, Orestians, Pelagonians, Lyncestians, Mygdonians, Edonians and Crestonians, to name a few, which the Greeks to the south considered all to be barbarians, that is, non-Greek speakers.

Interestingly, Proeva, does not include the Illyrians as having any Brygian in their ethno-genetic makeup and explains in detail why this is the case. She also makes some solid arguments as to why the two main tribes which inhabited the border regions with Illyria around Lake Ohrid, the Enchelanai and the Dassaretae, which are sometimes described as Greek and sometimes as Illyrian in origin, in fact belong to the Brygian/Macedonian ethnic substrate.

From Wikipedia, Bryges or Briges (Greek: Βρύγοι or Βρίγες) is the historical name given to a people of the ancient Balkans. They are generally considered to have been related to the Phrygians, who during classical antiquity lived in western Anatolia. Both names, Bryges and Phrygians, are assumed to be variants of the same root. Based on archaeological evidence, some scholars such as Nicholas Hammond and Eugene N. Borza argue that the Bryges/Phrygians were members of the Lusatian culture that migrated into the southern Balkans during the Late Bronze Age. (Note: More Slavic migration theories - this time it occurred in 1300 BC…Apparently.)

As for the etymology of the word Bryges, Wikipedia says that there is no certain derivation for the name and tribal origin of the word. In 1844, Hermann Müller suggested the name might be related to the same Indo-European root as that of Slavic Breg (shore, hill, slope, mountain), German Berg (mountain) and Illyrian breg (shore).
Note: The Slavic word Breg did not just mean “sea shore” but was also the old word for hill or mountain apparently. I have noted this since the Bryges seem to have occupied mainly hilly or mountainous areas of geographic Macedonia.

Despite hailing from various different regions and tribes, the unifying factor in the men (particularly those from Upper Macedonia) that made up Phillip and Alexander’s Macedonian army, and, consequently, made them so loyal, was the fact that they all proudly identified as Macedonians. This is best described in Waldemar Heckle & Ryan Jones’ 2006 book, “Macedonian Warrior”:

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The phalangites were simple men, hardened by a life that promised them little more than self-sufficiency, and bound to their taxeis (meaning, a set of shared attributes) by kinship or shared geographical background. Their commanders were members of the local aristocracies, and they served them just as their own fathers had served theirs. Hence they were proud to declare their regional origins, as Lyncestians, Orestians, Elimiotes, or Tymphaeans…Amongst themselves they spoke the Macedonian language, and probably even a local dialect of it. It is doubtful that many of them had a good understanding of Greek. It is highly likely that they prided themselves on being distinct even from the Macedonians of the plain (Lower Macedonia), just as American southerners regarded Yankees with distrust if not loathing.”
Here is an interesting quote from the ancient geographer Strabo with regard to Upper Macedonia:

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"They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Corcyra (is referring to an ancient city on the island of Corfu, if I’m not mistaken), at the same time assigning their reasons, the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys (a short cloak worn by men in ancient times), and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians; some of them, however speak two languages. On the dissolution of the Macedonian empire, they fell under the power of the Romans."
What I like about this passage by Strabo is that it corroborates the idea that, when Phillip II was expanding his Macedonian kingdom, he did so by incorporating kindred peoples that resembled his own Makedones. That is, people with the same (or similar) language, culture, traditions and customs…even the way they dressed and cut their hair.
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Old 04-10-2020, 12:05 AM   #17
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Karposh,

There are origin stories of the Phrygians that state they originated in the Balkans and specifically in Macedonia.

Such are the origin stories of Phrygian King Midas, which suggest he has origins in Macedonia and talk of the Gardens of Midas, in Macedonia.
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Old 04-12-2020, 09:21 PM   #18
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I believe the tribes that made up the Macedonian nation before the Macedonian nation existed were all related independent Indo-European tribes that had a mix of Pelasgian/Brygian origin as they inhabited the Macedonian territory. These tribes wanted to be independent and some even had their own kingdom (Lyncestians and the Paeonian tribes that made up the temporary Paeonian nation that later became Macedonians). When the Macedonian kingdom was created this is where the Macedonian nation started, incorporating the other related Indo-European tribes into the Macedonian kingdom and nation.

Does anyone know which Macedonian tribe the Agread dynasty of Macedon came from? Here’s my quick thought on it.

It’s known that the Agreads came from Argos Orestikon (which later became part of Ancient Macedonia) who most likely moved away to Emathia and founded the Macedonian kingdom and named the main city Aegae. Therefore, the Macedonian royal family and the first real king of Macedonia being Perdiccas I, were most likely part of the Orestian Indo-European tribe who would’ve most likely had traces to the Brygian people as they inhabited the Macedonian territory. Later the Macedonian royal family’s Orestian tribal members that stayed in Argos Orestikon completely became part of the Macedonian nation and kingdom in the 4th century BC.

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Old 04-18-2020, 08:56 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Chicho Makedonski View Post
I believe the tribes that made up the Macedonian nation before the Macedonian nation existed were all related independent Indo-European tribes that had a mix of Pelasgian/Brygian origin as they inhabited the Macedonian territory...When the Macedonian kingdom was created this is where the Macedonian nation started, incorporating the other related Indo-European tribes into the Macedonian kingdom and nation.
The ancient Greek historian, Arrian, pretty much says the same thing. Following is a passage from David G. Hogarth’s book, Philip and Alexander of Macedon, which illustrates this nicely:
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Philip began enrolling his subjects according to their local and tribal divisions and assigned them to standing territorial regiments. These standing regiments were known each by its colonel’s name and quoted thus by Arrian. “All were called ‘Macedonians’; the only general distinction, made thereafter, is between Macedonians and Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians.”
This is why the idea that the kingdom of Macedonia, which, by the time of King Philip II’s reign, became quite a large political state that occupied the better part of the central Balkans and was made up of various, ethnically-related Balkan tribes and clans, was simply - just another Greek city state is absurd. As one modern writer of history, Ulrich Wilchen, has noted:
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Even in Philip’s day the Greeks saw in the Macedonians a non-Greek foreign people, and we must remember that if we are to understand the history of Philip and Alexander, and especially the resistance and obstacles which met them from the Greeks. The point is much more important than our modern conviction that Greeks and Macedonians were brethren; this was equally unknown to both, and therefore could have no political effect.
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