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Old 06-05-2010, 05:31 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Indigen
In above list not one Macedonian coin to be found where name of the king ends in "os"! Is there such coins?
Indigen, do the coins from Greece during that time have the 'os' suffix?
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:48 AM   #22
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Bratot, where were the artefacts in the first two pics discovered? Can we get them in better quality?

What is the source of the tablet in the third pic that displays an alphabet from 7000 BC (top line)?
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:34 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by sonne View Post
I found this old threet as interesting to me, cos i travel trough vilages in macedonia often, and in my area i found that when ask something like :

To whom this is belongs, other guy will simple respond JORDANOJ , or JODRANOY if they belongs to some guy called JORDAN, or NIKOLOJ, NIKOLOY (in macedonian lang Y and J sound same) so when guys in ancient times will ask to whom this coins belongs, they simple will say if they belongs to ALEKSANDAR , ALEKSANDROY or ALEKSANDROJ, whats simple meens aleksandrovi today. To underrstand the words ( from ancient time) its very simple, just talk with old guys in vilages, you will understand everything.
That is the sdame like in my fathers selo, they would say Klimovci or chamisoj
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Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле Страшниот Чакаларов гркоубиец и крвожеден комитаџија.

Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море. Васил Чакаларов
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Old 06-05-2010, 07:58 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Indigen, do the coins from Greece during that time have the 'os' suffix?
SoM, to answer your question honestly, I have no idea and have little interest in numismatics but it is an interesting question and worth investigating further. IME, since the "Greeks" did not have monarchs or a national state (they constituted numerous city-states), I doubt they would have coins issued in the name of individuals.
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Old 06-05-2010, 08:21 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by sonne View Post
I found this old threet as interesting to me, cos i travel trough vilages in macedonia often, and in my area i found that when ask something like :

To whom this is belongs, other guy will simple respond JORDANOJ , or JODRANOY if they belongs to some guy called JORDAN, or NIKOLOJ, NIKOLOY (in macedonian lang Y and J sound same) so when guys in ancient times will ask to whom this coins belongs, they simple will say if they belongs to ALEKSANDAR , ALEKSANDROY or ALEKSANDROJ, whats simple meens aleksandrovi today. To underrstand the words ( from ancient time) its very simple, just talk with old guys in vilages, you will understand everything.
Good you bring this up because I remember the same (similar) practice in my end of Macedonia - Bitola region. But we could probably start a new topic to run with this theme!?

My understanding is that oi and ei endings were used in cases of plural surnames, e.g. if someone is called Jovan, it would be Jovanoi, and in the case of Jone, it would be Jonei. Anyhow, that is just my short blurb on this interesting topic at this point in time.

Further study can involve the various affixes used in surnames of other peoples (including those deemed linguistically or culturally related):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name_affixes

Last edited by indigen; 06-05-2010 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 06-06-2010, 01:01 AM   #26
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What is the source of the tablet in the third pic that displays an alphabet from 7000 BC (top line)?
I followed it up myself and I believe it to be from the tablet found in Kostur, Macedonian part of Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispilio_Tablet

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Old 06-06-2010, 05:41 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by sonne View Post
I found this old threet as interesting to me, cos i travel trough vilages in macedonia often, and in my area i found that when ask something like :

To whom this is belongs, other guy will simple respond JORDANOJ , or JODRANOY if they belongs to some guy called JORDAN, or NIKOLOJ, NIKOLOY (in macedonian lang Y and J sound same) so when guys in ancient times will ask to whom this coins belongs, they simple will say if they belongs to ALEKSANDAR , ALEKSANDROY or ALEKSANDROJ, whats simple meens aleksandrovi today. To underrstand the words ( from ancient time) its very simple, just talk with old guys in vilages, you will understand everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indigen View Post
Good you bring this up because I remember the same (similar) practice in my end of Macedonia - Bitola region. But we could probably start a new topic to run with this theme!?

My understanding is that oi and ei endings were used in cases of plural surnames, e.g. if someone is called Jovan, it would be Jovanoi, and in the case of Jone, it would be Jonei. Anyhow, that is just my short blurb on this interesting topic at this point in time.

Further study can involve the various affixes used in surnames of other peoples (including those deemed linguistically or culturally related):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name_affixes

I just wanted to add to these posts with a couple of comments. I don't think the examples in sonne's post are related to the 'oy' suffix in the coins.

I know that in the Bitola dialects at least, consonants (especially v) dissapear.

Eg: 'Polovina' becomes 'poloina' (or polojna), 'Rakavica' - 'rakaica' etc.

Re: examples in sonne's posts, there could be a double meaning.

Meaning 1.
'Jordanoy' or rather 'Jordanoi' is a corruption of 'Jordanovi.'
Jordanov - belonging to the family/tribe of Jordan (Jordan's family).
Jordanovi - plural. name of whole family.

Meaning 2.
plural form of belonging to Jordan.
Eg. Ovcite se Jordanoi (Jordanovi) - The sheep are Jordan's.
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Old 06-07-2010, 08:18 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by sf. View Post
I just wanted to add to these posts with a couple of comments. I don't think the examples in sonne's post are related to the 'oy' suffix in the coins.

I know that in the Bitola dialects at least, consonants (especially v) dissapear.

Eg: 'Polovina' becomes 'poloina' (or polojna), 'Rakavica' - 'rakaica' etc.

Re: examples in sonne's posts, there could be a double meaning.

Meaning 1.
'Jordanoy' or rather 'Jordanoi' is a corruption of 'Jordanovi.'
Jordanov - belonging to the family/tribe of Jordan (Jordan's family).
Jordanovi - plural. name of whole family.

Meaning 2.
plural form of belonging to Jordan.
Eg. Ovcite se Jordanoi (Jordanovi) - The sheep are Jordan's.
sf., what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Following are excerpts from Usenet posts by Joe Grez:

Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: Josif Grezlovski
Date: 1998/04/29
Subject: Re: Original Macedonian Names

Since most, if not all, ancient writers were Greeks, naturally, they will “convert” the names into Greek sounding versions. However, many of the coins issued during and after Alexander’s and Philip’s reign bear the names of “Alexandroy” which means “money of Alexander. BTW, that is the same way we express possessiveness. For example: These farms are Alexandroi, or Alexandroj, Tomei, Stojanoj, or Stojanoi etc., etc,..
--
You can crush all the roses you want, but
You are not going to stop the spring from coming!

Josif Grezlovski

-----------

Josif Grezlovski: “....The lang. You are referring was “Koine”, and the coins for which you like to get credit for indicate the word [most of them anyway] “Alexandroy” which means “money of Alexander”. We, present day Macedonians, in all three parts of Macedonia, not just RoM, use the same expression to indicate possessiveness....”


Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: Josif Grezlovski
Date: 1998/05/10
You can use “whatever milks your cow”.
Alexander was never referred to as “Alexandros” by his companions, friends and family members. Today’s greeks,[and not the ancient Greeks] could re-baptize him “Alexandros” or any other Greek sounding/ending suffix if they so please, but that will change nothing about his ethnicity as Macedonian.

Many of the coins from antiquity bear the insignia “Alexandroy”, which means “Money of Alexander”. BTW, that denotes “possessiveness” and it is the same expression that today’s Macedonians use to describe something that belongs to them. [That is us, the true Macedonians, and not the invented one in Greece]

Linguists have stated that the language of the ancient Macedonians was not Greek. However the paucity of the available evidence precludes scholars from arriving at definitive/final conclusion.

P.S. You, as a learned Greek, in a “democratic” [not] country could post a legit question to your government inquiring about the fate of two dozens or so unearthed inscriptions in ancient Macedonian language that are awaiting further “studies” in storerooms in Athens. Why aren’t they being published after so many years? If the language of the ancient Macedonians was “Greek” [yeah, right], then what kind of “further analysis” is needed to translate the old “Greek” to the new “Greek” lang.? Didn’t you guys claim that you modern Greeks can read the ancient text? Well, someone is lying here, someone is withholding the truth from you “modern Greeks”.

In all fairness, your post is at least clean and devoid of any stupidities which are regularly found in many posts sent by Greek netters. This is why it is kind of difficult to tell you that your government cheats, lies, deceives, and steals. Deprivation of historical truth is a sin, a today’s Greek government is a thieving one.
Good day
Josif

Last edited by indigen; 06-08-2010 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 06-08-2010, 02:21 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by indigen View Post
sf., what came first, the chicken or the egg?
It's not that obvious to me. We have three possible outlooks, as presented in this thread.

Recap:

1. The letter 'y' is read as 'ou' in Greek. This letter indicates the same sound in cyrillic. So Alexandroy becomes Alexandrou.

2. The letter y symbolises the sound 'y' (cyrillic 'j') as in youth. Then Alexandroy becomes Александрој (cyrillic).

3. The letter 'y' is phoenician in origin and symbolises the 'v' sound. So the word becomes Alexandrov.

My question re 2 and 3 is why would the word indicate plural or masculine possessiveness respectively? And are these grammatical rules even appropriate? Even the first outlook above doesn't seem obvious to me.
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Old 06-08-2010, 03:01 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by sf. View Post
It's not that obvious to me. We have three possible outlooks, as presented in this thread.

Recap:

1. The letter 'y' is read as 'ou' in Greek. This letter indicates the same sound in cyrillic. So Alexandroy becomes Alexandrou.

The modern Greek of today?


Quote:
2. The letter y symbolises the sound 'y' (cyrillic 'j') as in youth. Then Alexandroy becomes Александрој (cyrillic).

3. The letter 'y' is phoenician in origin and symbolises the 'v' sound. So the word becomes Alexandrov.
The protetic change exist even today in modern Macedonian dialects, in the Western dialects they use J letter for jaglen(coal) but in Estern they use V letter for vaglen, it's the same word.

J=V



It's not really known for sure how and why that change occures but it does testify for the connection.

More probably is that ancient Y were repreenting the Phoenican voice - F/V, but even if not entirely still this gots a very big slavic language chracteristic relation.
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