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Old 05-01-2011, 08:04 AM   #11
Delodephius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
There are some similarities between the Linear B script and that of the Dipsilio tablet:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=5431


And with other old European scripts, such as those from the Vinca Culture:
SoM, take a look at this:

Tărtăria tablet (~5500 BC)


Gradeshnitsa tablet (5th mil. BC)


Karanovo tablet (5th mil. BC)


Could it be that the Egyptian hieroglyphs originated in the Balkans, that when the agriculture began to spread into Europe a writing system was exported to Egypt? I once sent these images to an Egyptologist, I didn't tell him from where they were from or the period they were made, but after examining them he said they were not in the Egyptian language, at least not of any known period.
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Old 05-01-2011, 09:30 PM   #12
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They all look like they share certain features and symbols, not only between each other but also with the Phoenician script to some degree. Is it possible that they all have a common Balkan ancestor, after which they have separated, altered, then influenced each other over time? Definetly worthy of further research. I think one of the main obstacles here is attributing accurate sound values to the symbols which were meant to represent letters. For example, if the word 'zab' (Macedonian for 'tooth') sounded like PIE 'gombh' 4,000 years ago, how would it have sounded 4,000 years prior to that?
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:06 PM   #13
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Lost Languages from the Mediterranean, By Jan G. P. Best
http://books.google.ca/books?id=resU...ed=0CDIQ6AEwAQ

Page 52: "After the decipherment of Linear A in 1981, it is not difficult to see that the many Phoenician and Akkadian loanwords on the Linear B tablets from Knossos and other sites in the Greek mainland stem directly from the language of the Linear A tablets from Hagia Triada."

Page 53: "Linear A together with Linear B, Linear B together with Linear A, Phoenicians together with Greeks, Greeks together with Phoenicians: not exactly compatible with John Chadwick's pure Greek in Linear B."
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:50 AM   #14
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a translation from this news : http://www.lecourrierderussie.com/20.../#.UQwq0mclcYc


Quote:
Anatolii Kozelskiï: Before Babel, Proto-Slavic
Posted May 28, 2010 at 0:00

Academically speaking, Anatolii Kozelskiï is not a linguist. Engineer by training, he has distinguished himself particularly in the role of chief project engineer in the construction of plants producing electric motors. But, having reached the age of retirement, he embarked on a second career, this time as a researcher. And he did not hesitate to venture into one of the fields that are most ungrateful: the study of the famous "Linear A", the writing system held the oldest ever known ancient Crete well before the onset of the Greek historical arena, whose first material evidence has been discovered by archaeologist Arthur Evans.

Tablets of Hagia Triada site, located in the south of Crete, are indeed the main source, but not the only materials available today for the study of "Linear A". It is Evans himself that we owe this seemingly arbitrary name. Not knowing what languages ​​were written in the tablets found, he decided to call respectively "linear" A and B and the three types hieroglyphic writing which bore the trace. The choice is motivated, the first two being denotation systems syllabaries, and not purely ideogrammatic as the second oldest form of the three. Linear in the scriptures said Anatolii, signs take the value of the first syllable of the word for the object they represent, and have no function to designate the object in question. And these writings are linearized in two ways: the text has no form of a snail, but a series of successive lines, and signs are less stylized and designed by purification of the line, some resembling letters.

Khaltoura Anglo-Saxon

Officially, the Linear B was deciphered once and for all by the English architect Michael Ventris. His first works date back to 1952 and the final results of his research are recorded in a treatise published in 1955 he co-authored with John Chadwick, Hellenist, who helped him to continue his research. Linear B denote a dialect held an archaic form of ancient Greek, Mycenaean. The Linear A, which it derives, is however remained an enigma, despite the efforts of Hubert La Marle particular, taking the assumption "Indo-Iranian", in which language it denotes is not agglutinative, as was believed before him, but inflected.

Anatolii began his research much later, in 1994, and its conclusions are shocking: "In 100 years of research, we have come to nothing regarding the Linear A, but we have not succeeded in really decipher Linear B. Ventris and Chadwick were able to identify the signs and sentences, which they attribute to a language that resembles the ancient Greek. But how can we speak of "decoding" of a language you do not understand the meaning? They are not able to translate one text! Their fundamental mistake is having obstinately assume that it was a Greek dialect. All this, in Russian, is called the "khaltoura" from a botched. '

The term is violent. Anatolii but has his reasons: he has any other assumptions that allowed him to decipher the strong sense that he wants, he says, not only Linear A, but B. And his thesis is even more shocking: these two systems would denote not any Greek dialect, but an ancient dialect of the Russian language, a "proto-Slavic"! If he is right, the consequences are devastating: it is not only the basics of Philology linguistics research on the languages ​​of antiquity that are undermined, but also of entire history.

Reminiscences proto-Slavic

Like all discoverers perhaps Anatolii was seized early by intuition. "I think there was a time in my youth decisive in the 1950s, the school I attended, we studied the ancient Greek myths and characters that inhabit: Icarus, Daedalus, Priam, Helen. And suddenly I thought: all those names, somehow sound very Russian. There is something hiding under there. Later, when the time comes, I will it all clear. I finally had to wait until they reach the age of retirement to work for me, there are now 16 years ago. '

To transform intuition in research track, he then consulted the works of recognized classics. It is among the first linguist, historian and traveler Aleksandr Chertkov (1789-1858) he found confirmation of his hypothesis in his wildest consequences. This specialist Slavic already stated, in the middle of the nineteenth century, one could find traces of a single strain "Russian" in the Greek settlements of Greece to the Balkans: the Pelasgians, who since been debated hectic pitting all kinds of ethno-political factors in these Balkans. But it was enough to know that slavophone people had haunted these lands before the Greeks to allow them to continue their research. Sinews of war, he bought a copy of the Code, but very rare inscriptions in Linear A, vol. 1, L. Godart and J-P. Olivier, until he consulted the form of micro-film to the Lenin Library. Finally, in 2003 he published at the author a collection of texts in Linear A translated by him, as the scriptures of ancient Slavic (Crète. Linear A) ¹, which includes all new materials which was used to establish its demonstration from Haghia Triada, but also from Pylos and Knossos.

Philological revolution?

The core of the discovery of a technical than its predecessors thought they could ignore. "In the Linear A, there are signs representing numbers from 1 to 9, in the form of vertical and horizontal lines aligned side by side. They have always been treated by researchers as numbers, and nothing else. But there are signs in this system mixed from "ligatures": they combine drawings of objects and bars denoting numbers, which gives a nonsense, a heterogeneous impossible to interpret. These include a sign that appears only once in all the texts available uninterpretable unless it is broken down into a drawing and a figure that they are very common. I realized that if the system is homogeneous, it could be in the ligatures that the meeting of syllabic signs all equally. In other words, signs representing numbers should not be interpreted in the context of a direct designation, but as representatives of the first syllable of the name of the figure. Basing myself on the presupposition of Chertkov that it was an archaic Russian language, I was able to establish equivalences and find the corresponding syllables: "edin" to 1 "chih" to 4, for example, first syllables of the old names of figures that make the texts fully interpretable. '

Therefore, the main task is to Anatolii systematically implement the method called acrophonic "From simplified drawings which are made signs, I had to rebuild the objects designated, and from there, find the name that was given to them Russian archaic to isolate the first syllable. I studied 50 characters in this way, trying to intuitively what they looked like in the familiar environment of the speakers. For example, a drawing in a very stylized teeth zouby Russian, took the syllabic value "zou". "The famous Explanatory Dictionary of the Russian language living Vladimir Dal will become, at this stage of the quest names, an inexhaustible source.

But it is the exercise of translation remains the touchstone. "Intuitively, it is easy to identify the pronunciation of syllables and associating meanings, but much less cut texts signs. Based on the study of 50 texts, I was able to discern syllabic signs 1000. And, depending on the theoretical presuppositions that I learned, I was able to show that the fundamental roots of the language in which they are written at the same time playing the role of the verb and noun. These findings are confirmed in semantic, translation, and aurally, through compliance with the laws of evolution of language. "Anatolii asserts that his work meets current scientific validation:" The verification process includes multiple levels, the logic of the proposal, the theme of the text and its relation to the whole of which it is part. And my method meets the basic criteria in linguistics: it shows that the inscriptions are examined texts, that is to say, the expression of a specific phenomenon such as language, and that language can be identified as the Russian antique. "It is certainly disturbing that most of the translated texts relate to a single register: it is practical advice addressed to young people, sometimes set in a quasi-poetic, half-way between the aphorism Heraclitean and Japanese haiku. "Do scrape places tender to release the winds," and advocates such fragment. Ronsard lovers may be disappointed, but the path of science is rarely decorated with roses.

Passion for ignorance?

In September 2000, Sofia, qu'Anatoliï to risk a first presentation of research results. The reception is very positive. His collection in 2003, and since republished enriched, is used in the ancient history faculties of several universities, St. Petersburg, Kazan and Voronezh. It does not go well on the side of the Russian Academy of Sciences. "This is a blow to several institutes, linguistics, Russian language, history of antiquity. To their resistance, I made this argument elementary: "In the courts, it reopens the files on the basis of new hardware. "They prefer to be convinced that everything has already been said, even when the received theory does not take into account the new materials on which I worked. And they avoid writing anything on the subject, for fear of confrontation. In particular, I contacted the Slavic Research Institute of the Academy in Moscow, after which its name is supposed to deal with the history of the Slavs. But their reaction was very negative, because my discovery casts a shadow on their classifications. All that I have to know is that my work has been discussed by specialists of the institute, and they decided to declare "anti-scientific" and not mention anywhere, without further explanation. '

This policy of silence creates a situation detrimental, which does not facilitate the dissemination of research Anatolii. "The problem is that to publish my work other than the author's, I have to get a grant, and that it is precisely the director of the institute decided to ignore that decides . "But he continues to work tirelessly, waiting serenely other researchers are joining their efforts with his. And, according to him, the site is huge.

Simon Roblin
1 A French version of the preface, translated by Velichka Ivanova is available. Contact the author at kronov79 [at] mail.ru
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:01 AM   #15
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This could be groundbreaking research work it would change our entire notions of the "ancient world". For me the greatest find is that there was no common proto-hellenic language.
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Old 02-02-2014, 07:51 PM   #16
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Here is a summary of an interesting book by Saul Levin which analyses the so-called decipherment of Ventris and Chadwick. I will post some pages once I read through it.
Quote:
The Linear B Decipherment Controversy Re-Examined

Summary


Examines the evidence for the phonetic value of individual Linear B characters.

Michael Ventris’s decipherment of the pre-historic Linear B tablets discovered in Greece and Crete provided one of the most dramatic moments in recent historical research. The controversy provoked by his work has to a large degree polarized scholarly opinion between wholehearted acclamation and complete rejection, making rational analysis difficult. Professor Levin believes that only an objective and methodical study of all the relevant details can produce an adequate evaluation of the discovery.

On this principle, he sifts the evidence for the phonetic value of individual Linear B characters, first as Ventris did it, then as it can now be done with more material than he had. This discloses that Ventris’s procedure was eclectic and more intuitive than scientific; yet a strict critique verifies his transcription of about a third of the characters. While this verification is a matter of degree—some are beyond reasonable doubt; others are only fairly probable—the remaining two-thirds of the characters elude testing and can be neither proved nor disproved. Bits of genuine Greek emerge from the tablets, but much less than Ventris and his supporters claim. The meaning of most Linear B words remains quite conjectural.

Furthermore, the critique, when applied to the prefixes and suffixes, reveals a few that are characteristic of Greek but more than are profoundly irreconcilable with it. This indicates the presence of another language or languages, most likely mixed with Greek into a jargon. Professor Levin concludes that we cannot rationally look for one uniform language in the Linear B texts. How much is Greek is very doubtful, so many historical interpretations which have been erected upon an enthusiastic adherence to all of Ventris’s conclusions will need to be reconsidered.

This study, seeking to ascertain what is sound in Ventris’s decipherment, helps clear away unsupported guesses and brings into prominence all that can serve as a reliable basis for further knowledge of the languages of the ancient Aegean world—and, through them, knowledge of these early roots of our civilization. By subjecting the work of Ventris to the cool-headed analysis any major work of scholarship deserves, Professor Levin puts the work in truer perspective and demonstrates in a more profound sense that, despite errors in method and interpretation, Ventris must be regarded as one of the significant pioneers in research in the historical sciences.

Saul Levin obtained his A.B. and Ph.D. in Greek at the University of Chicago and also studied Hebrew at Harvard and, as a Faculty Fellow of the Fund for the Advancement of Education, linguistics and the transmission of texts at Chicago. His translations, critical essays, and reviews have been published widely in the professional journals, and his translation of To Romeby Aelius Aristides, with notes and introduction, was published in 1950. He is now Professor of Greek at Harpur College of the State University of New York.
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Here is a summary of an interesting book by Saul Levin which analyses the so-called decipherment of Ventris and Chadwick. I will post some pages once I read through it.
Thanks SoM.

This was a very interesting quote:

Furthermore, the critique, when applied to the prefixes and suffixes, reveals a few that are characteristic of Greek but more than are profoundly irreconcilable with it. This indicates the presence of another language or languages, most likely mixed with Greek into a jargon. Professor Levin concludes that we cannot rationally look for one uniform language in the Linear B texts. How much is Greek is very doubtful, so many historical interpretations which have been erected upon an enthusiastic adherence to all of Ventris’s conclusions will need to be reconsidered.
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
Lost Languages from the Mediterranean, By Jan G. P. Best
http://books.google.ca/books?id=resU...ed=0CDIQ6AEwAQ

Page 52: "After the decipherment of Linear A in 1981, it is not difficult to see that the many Phoenician and Akkadian loanwords on the Linear B tablets from Knossos and other sites in the Greek mainland stem directly from the language of the Linear A tablets from Hagia Triada."

Page 53: "Linear A together with Linear B, Linear B together with Linear A, Phoenicians together with Greeks, Greeks together with Phoenicians: not exactly compatible with John Chadwick's pure Greek in Linear B."
I agree. ...
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:06 PM   #19
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:25 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by tchaiku View Post
I agree. ...
You... do? It's good we have an expert in Linear A & B. Tell us more.

Now me, for instance, I didn't even know Linear A was deciphered in 1981 (I must have totally missed that).
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