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Old 04-06-2012, 04:35 PM   #21
vicsinad
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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
Victor,

To 'manifest' something basically means to implement it. By saying that America 'manifested' Lockes principles you are saying they implemented what Locke advocated and hence the original idea lies with him. I can't believe that I have to give you basic English lessons while having you accuse me of comprehension problems. You don't even know what you are trying to say!
Again, another lesson on comprehension AND logic problems...and I guess English language problems:

If, as you say, to manifest something means to implement something, then when I say "America's manifestation" we will agree that I mean "America's implementation." Now when people implement things they can do so wholly, partly, correctly, or incorrectly. If you don't agree with this, then you're lost.

So when I say America's manifestation, I'm mean America's way of displaying Lockean principles. And of course, those who have surpassed elementary school in the English language understand that things are to be read in context...and when read in context, manifest entails an element of implementation that goes beyond the surface, which includes utilization.

I will try to write more simply for you because you're having trouble with context.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:44 PM   #22
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And yes...I equate Lockean principles and ideas with slavery of the Earth.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:47 PM   #23
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Again, another lesson on comprehension AND logic problems...and I guess English language problems:

If, as you say, to manifest something means to implement something, then when I say "America's manifestation" we will agree that I mean "America's implementation." Now when people implement things they can do so wholly, partly, correctly, or incorrectly. If you don't agree with this, then you're lost.

So when I say America's manifestation, I'm mean America's way of displaying Lockean principles. And of course, those who have surpassed elementary school in the English language understand that things are to be read in context...and when read in context, manifest entails an element of implementation that goes beyond the surface, which includes utilization.

I will try to write more simply for you because you're having trouble with context.
Victor, you still have the same fundamental problem and you yourself admit it without knowing:

Quote:
So when I say America's manifestation, I'm mean America's way of displaying Lockean principles.
You're still claiming its a "Lockean" principle. This is just another case of you making an idiotic claim and then trying to pretend that you did not. What is worse, you seemingly have done this in order to de-legitimise natural rights and responsibilities, which until yesterday, you claimed were one of your "principles"!

I fear that you suffer from one of the most poisonous types of the slave mentality, which you attempt to have the rest of us accept. The clear demonstration of this was yesterday when you spilt the beans on your view that Egej is a "legitimate" Greek entity and the various idiotic (and contradictory) claims you made to back it up, only to refuse to provide sources (other than Risto Stefov).
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:49 PM   #24
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And yes...I equate Lockean principles and ideas with slavery of the Earth.
Now you're flip-flopping again! Well, its good that you've clearly stated it at least. Care to provide your reasoning as to how/why you came to this conclusion? Everyone watch this space - this will be a fantastic demonstration of Victor's slave mentality and how he eventually came to regard Egej as a "legitimate" Greek entity.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:00 PM   #25
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Victor, you still have the same fundamental problem and you yourself admit it without knowing:



You're still claiming its a "Lockean" principle. This is just another case of you making an idiotic claim and then trying to pretend that you did not. What is worse, you seemingly have done this in order to de-legitimise natural rights and responsibilities, which until yesterday, you claimed were one of your "principles"!

I fear that you suffer from one of the most poisonous types of the slave mentality, which you attempt to have the rest of us accept. The clear demonstration of this was yesterday when you spilt the beans on your view that Egej is a "legitimate" Greek entity and the various idiotic (and contradictory) claims you made to back it up, only to refuse to provide sources (other than Risto Stefov).
Lockean principles serve as pillars and justification for American slavery...slavery of the land, slavery of animals, slavery of people, slavery of resources.

I never suggested or even implied that I was de-legitimizing natural rights. Rather, my response was in response to this:

"It was Christians who left Europe because of persecution in the early 17th century who understood our natural inalienable rights more than any other group. They settled in what is now the United States and formed their own democratic governance systems to govern their colonies and regulate relations between individuals on both political and economic matters. In essence, they were the first to reject the notion that sovereignty lies with a hereditary monarch and established the first democratic and republican system in which sovereignty laid with the body of citizens."

It cannot be me who suffers from the slave mentality when it is not me claiming that we have oppressors every where we turn...that we're oppressed from every direction...that we're victims of every wolf. You want Macedonians to be oppressed and the victims so you can continually blame Macedonia's neighbors AND practically every Macedonian who doesn't conform to your views of being the root problems...thus leaving no Macedonian, along with no Serb, Greek, Bulgarian, or Albanian, with any escape in your ego-driven game.

If there's anyone who suffers any sort of symptom, it's you and your delusions.

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Old 04-06-2012, 05:11 PM   #26
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Now you're flip-flopping again! Well, its good that you've clearly stated it at least. Care to provide your reasoning as to how/why you came to this conclusion? Everyone watch this space - this will be a fantastic demonstration of Victor's slave mentality and how he eventually came to regard Egej as a "legitimate" Greek entity.
How can I flip-flop when I never once stated the opposite of what I just stated?

Roughly, under Locke, property does not exist without labor. One has to "use" the land (the animal) for it to be his. In essence, one has to exploit it. Thus, according to Locke, you have to tear-up the land to own it. Further, Locke also believed that people could have "natural property rights" to "natural resources", when there is no evidence of pre-ownership.

And here comes Christian Europeans...

Native Americans didn't "use" the lands as productively as the Europeans could, so of course they had no property rights to the land!
Because early American (and English) courts assumed these views, and versions of them, generations of enslavement (from people to animals to resources) have been, and are being, justified.
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:42 PM   #27
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Lockean principles serve as pillars and justification for American slavery...slavery of the land, slavery of animals, slavery of people, slavery of resources.

I never suggested or even implied that I was de-legitimizing natural rights. Rather, my response was in response to this:

"It was Christians who left Europe because of persecution in the early 17th century who understood our natural inalienable rights more than any other group. They settled in what is now the United States and formed their own democratic governance systems to govern their colonies and regulate relations between individuals on both political and economic matters. In essence, they were the first to reject the notion that sovereignty lies with a hereditary monarch and established the first democratic and republican system in which sovereignty laid with the body of citizens."

It cannot be me who suffers from the slave mentality when it is not me claiming that we have oppressors every where we turn...that we're oppressed from every direction...that we're victims of every wolf. You want Macedonians to be oppressed and the victims so you can continually blame Macedonia's neighbors AND practically every Macedonian who doesn't conform to your views of being the root problems...thus leaving no Macedonian, along with no Serb, Greek, Bulgarian, or Albanian, with any escape in your ego-driven game.

If there's anyone who suffers any sort of symptom, it's you and your delusions.
Your right Victor, Serb dancing and accepting over 50 per cent of Macedonia as a "legitimate" Greek entity is not a symptom of the slave mentality. Tell me Victor, seeing as you accept that Egej is a "legitimate" Greek entity, do you also accept that Greece has a "legitimate" grievance in relation to Macedonia's identity? If over 50 per cent of Macedonia is "legitimately" Greek, then surely they have a "legitimate" concern over the name and the various identity issues that stem from it, according to your logic.
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The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:48 PM   #28
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How can I flip-flop when I never once stated the opposite of what I just stated?

Roughly, under Locke, property does not exist without labor. One has to "use" the land (the animal) for it to be his. In essence, one has to exploit it. Thus, according to Locke, you have to tear-up the land to own it. Further, Locke also believed that people could have "natural property rights" to "natural resources", when there is no evidence of pre-ownership.

And here comes Christian Europeans...

Native Americans didn't "use" the lands as productively as the Europeans could, so of course they had no property rights to the land!
Because early American (and English) courts assumed these views, and versions of them, generations of enslavement (from people to animals to resources) have been, and are being, justified.
Three points on this one.

Firstly, I was hoping you would provide examples or citations from Locke's own work, not more of your own dribble.

Secondly, is it correct that you believe property rights (in general) enslave people? Or are you referring to Locke's supposed views on property rights, which you believe enslaves people? If the latter, I will have to refer you back to the first point above and require some actual corroboration/examples of Locke's own work and how his views on property rights supposedly enslave people.

Finally, don't confuse the various forms of enslavement as one and the same. This thread is referring to a very specific form of enslavement. I will only warn you one more time - make your comments relevant or make them on another thread.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:10 PM   #29
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I will only warn you one more time - make your comments relevant or make them on another thread.
Democracy in action.
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:41 PM   #30
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One thing i noticed people don't readily admit they got the slave mentality.They aren't even aware they got it & when they do what do they do NOTHING,just whinge & whine fror the sake of some principle.One thing i also noticed that races like greeks & romans practiced slavery BUT Macedonia didn't practice slavey.In macedonia everyone was a free man.Remember how demosthenes said in greece you can buy a decent slave in macedonia you can't.One thing that stuck out like a sore thumb about slavery is there is a scripture
that says you can't serve both god & money its either one or the others.The true beleivers are the one's serving god only.
So without realising we are all slaves to one thing or another.
So we are all waiting in"vain"" if the macedonian people will lift their mindset slavery out & change that mindset to a positive one.I've got to see that yet.
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