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Old 01-11-2012, 08:29 PM   #1
Vangelovski
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Default Slave Mentality

Back to the elephant in the room that some would rather not discuss

Over the years, we've touched on various aspects of this problem. One aspect that I want to touch on is more of a symptom of the slave mentality, but one that will help us better understand both what the slave mentality is and how it can be overcome.

This symptom is the support of oppressive regimes. In recent times, this symptom has reared its ugly head on the MTO forum. Whether people support oppressive regimes because they genuinely believe that that particular political system is a much better one at organising the state and regulating relations between its citizens or whether they are simply supportive because that particular regime is "sticking it" to what they view as an evil imperialist America is irrelevant, the underlying reasons - suffering from a slave mentality – is what continues to plague Macedonians worldwide and the results of it are well known, including authoritarian governments in Macedonia who act as vassals for foreign powers rather than representatives of Macedonian interests.

It is almost incomprehensible that a human being would willingly support an oppressive regime for whatever reason. Some of the regimes that have garnered favourable opinion on this forum include those of Iran, Libya and North Korea. Another popular one is that of Russia. Much of this support comes from misguided individuals who actually live in liberal democratic states. Perhaps they just don't understand the genuine repression that millions of individuals experience on a daily basis in these countries? What is even more mind-boggling is that they then accuse the very liberal democratic states in which they live of being oppressive, yet they are blind to the irony that they are able to freely express these views without being killed, imprisoned, tortured or experiencing more "subtle" forms of repression such as loss of employment or official discrimination against them or their families.

The key differences between liberal democratic states such as the United States and Australia and oppressive regimes such as those mentioned earlier, is in who ultimately hold political power and how that power is used. In states such as Iran, North Korea and Russia, a small circle of elites is the sovereign, much like the monarch and his lords in the Middle Ages and the Persian Gulf states today. In states such as the United States and Australia, the body of citizens is the sovereign. That means that the body of citizens is the ultimate decision-maker and all political power resides with them. The other difference is the end purpose of political power. In oppressive regimes it is to perpetuate the power of the regime. In liberal democracies it is to uphold the natural inalienable rights and responsibilities of the each individual citizen and work for their collective benefit. Although this does not always happen in practice, the political freedom that we enjoy and the political institutions and structures that we have, ensure that it does happen in the vast majority of instances.

On a historical note, which has been discussed but not understood by some on this forum, it is because of the American colonists that we even have liberal democratic and republican systems, amongst other fundamental institutions and structures, today. It was Christians who left Europe because of persecution in the early 17th century who understood our natural inalienable rights more than any other group. They settled in what is now the United States and formed their own democratic governance systems to govern their colonies and regulate relations between individuals on both political and economic matters. In essence, they were the first to reject the notion that sovereignty lies with a hereditary monarch and established the first democratic and republican system in which sovereignty laid with the body of citizens. The ill-informed among us will claim that this would have eventually happened anyway, but this is not necessarily the case and the fact of the matter remains that it was the Americans that did it. In addition, a number of very specific circumstances combined to allow them to achieve this (these require detailed analysis and it is not relevant to this particular post).

Criticism of liberal democratic states as being “oppressive” is usually levelled by people who, on the one hand, have never experienced oppression in their lives and on the other hand, have made no attempt to engage politically on either the local, state or federal levels, or within their own communities. In fact, many of these people would not have the slightest idea of how to even engage in the political process, have no idea how it works or how and by whom it is and can be influenced. They just make the assumption that some faceless “corporate elites” run the world according to their own interests. This is not only insane, but flies in the face of logic and the multitude of competing interests among “corporate elites” themselves. Regardless, this is also irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The opportunities for political participation in liberal democracies are endless and the governments of these states are constantly seeking participation from each and every citizen – in fact, it is a RESPONSIBILITY that each Australian citizen is EXPECTED to meet. Further, liberal democracies, while not perfect, in the vast majority of instances protect the inalienable rights of their citizens.

What are these rights? The most relevant to Macedonians include the rights to freedom of thought, freedom of expression and the freedom to make your own decisions. Most Macedonians still have not realised that they hold these inalienable rights, and if they have, they still have not grasped their significance, dismissing them as some useless philosophical ideals that have no practical use in real life. Its amazing how they can dismiss what is right in front of them! The political and economic freedom, and the prosperity that comes with it, compared to the political and economic oppression and the results that stem from that!

Its an absolute shame that some people support oppressive regimes and their violation of these rights. But it is ultimately a symptom of the slave mentality. Ultimately, these people believe that these rights either don’t exist (which is ludicrous) or that they should not (which is worse). The great irony is that they exercise these rights in their attempt to deny them.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:28 PM   #2
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"A slave is one who waits for someone to come and free him"

~ Ezra Pound
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:16 AM   #3
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http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer82.html

Quote:
The first case I have students read in my Property Law class is Dred Scott v. Sandford, in which a slave raised the question of whether he ought to be considered a "person" under the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that he could not, that he was the property of his slave master. I then demonstrate to my students how "ownership" is a function of "control" over an item of property; that whoever is able to effectively control property is its owner, regardless of what some document might suggest.
Which means the Greeks are Macedonia's masters when it comes to Macedonia's identity.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer82.html



Which means the Greeks are Macedonia's masters when it comes to Macedonia's identity.
The Greeks are Macedonia's 'masters' in more than just identity. However, this is only because the Macedonians willingly allow them to be.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
Back to the elephant in the room that some would rather not discuss

Over the years, we've touched on various aspects of this problem. One aspect that I want to touch on is more of a symptom of the slave mentality, but one that will help us better understand both what the slave mentality is and how it can be overcome.

This symptom is the support of oppressive regimes. In recent times, this symptom has reared its ugly head on the MTO forum. Whether people support oppressive regimes because they genuinely believe that that particular political system is a much better one at organising the state and regulating relations between its citizens or whether they are simply supportive because that particular regime is "sticking it" to what they view as an evil imperialist America is irrelevant, the underlying reasons - suffering from a slave mentality – is what continues to plague Macedonians worldwide and the results of it are well known, including authoritarian governments in Macedonia who act as vassals for foreign powers rather than representatives of Macedonian interests.

[color=#390002][font=Verdana]It is almost incomprehensible that a human being would willingly support an oppressive regime for whatever reason. Some of the regimes that have garnered favourable opinion on this forum include those of Iran, Libya and North Korea.
This thread was started on 11 Jan 2012, and today is the 20th Jan 2012. Allowing for 'Stara Nova godina' (14 Jan 2012) and Vodici (19 Jan 2012) as holidays, still leaves 7 days where someone could have posted.
I guess everyone thought
O. . . . . . . . . . . .Thinly
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Stick man with 10 (10 x =) foot pole

Just out of curiosity, how do you know they were "oppressive regimes"? Did Western Channel X media tell you?
I went back and reread the whole of "The War in Libya" thread and couldn't see exactly what you mean. It really makes for an interesting read.


Was it-
Phoenix Post028
"What really 'impressed' me was listening to the likes of Sarkozy, Obama, Cameron and Merkel justifying their intervention by saying that the Libyan people had put up for 40 years with the injustices of the Gaddafi regime...where the fuck were they 39 years ago if they were so concerned about the Libyan people...?"

Sounds like Phoenix is trying to say if Gaddafi was so oppressive that it drove the West to war, why did they wait 40 years to do it. Sounds to me like Phoenix is saying either Gaddafi was not that bad for 39 years, or the West were uncaring for 39 years - surely the West had the battle ships and missiles to take Gaddafi out 39 years ago.

Which do you think it is?

Onur Post030
"Western world was the biggest supporter of Gaddafi and they were kissing each others ass for 40 years, just like Saddam in Iraq before."

Sounds like the West (Italy in particular) not only tolerated Gaddafi for 39 years, but in fact were quite chummy with him - kind of like he was a good bloke.

Frank Post054
"NATO failed again on Wednesday to agree on taking over military operations against Moammar Gadhafi's forces in Libya, chiefly because of Turkey's objections, diplomats said."

Sounds like Turkey didn't think he was bad enough to be bombed. Is Turkey a repressive regime supporting another oppressive regime.

Prolet Post056
"Onur, I watched this episode on Serbian TV they had the Serbian Ambassador to Libya and also a correspondent in Libya who lived and worked there, i actually couldnt believe what they were saying.

They explained how in Libya Students can study anywhere in the world and they are payed 2200 euros per month by the Libyan Government plus they cover their rent expenses and so forth. They say how the citizens in Libya dont pay any bills ie Electricity,Water,Sewerage nothing and the best quality petrol there costs 1 euro for 17 liters. The other guy points out that while he was living there, he didnt recall seeing one beggar on the street."

Sounds like he wasn't that bad -
1. allowing any student to study anywhere in the world with a reasonably generouse allowance of 2200 Euros per month.
2. no utility bills
3. extremely cheap petrol (17 Litres for 1 Euro)
4. no beggars anywhere

Do you know any 'non-oppressive' regime that does this?

Onur Post070
"* Less than 2 years ago, the US were selling military parts to the Libyan Air Force through 3rd countries;http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/11/09STATE115561.html"

Sounds like the USA don't think he was too bad so as not to sell him military parts which he might use the to 'oppress' his people.

Big Bad Sven Post123
"Libya was free of IMF and world bank debt
loans were given at %0 interest
free basic education and compulsory education up to secondary level
almost %40 of the budget was dedicated to education
huge social security benifits
he wanted to be paied for the oil in gold not USD
he built the massive water project to make Libya a centre of north african agriculture and a top 20 economy by 2030
it had a higher HDI than Russia and was the highest in africa

and for that, Libyans could vote... what a monster!!!!!

Sounds like a bunch of good things for his people - and they "could vote"
I like the "free of the IMF" a known opposer of people, and the 0% interest loans, free education and security benefits. Doesn't the USA make people pay for their education and save for their retirement.


George S Post134
"why people rebel against him?

1. There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.

2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

3. Home considered a human right in Libya – Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi’s father has died while him, his wife and his mother are still living in a tent.

4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.

5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.

6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kick- start their farms – all for free.

7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US $2, 300/mth accommodation and car allowance.

8. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidized 50% of the price.

9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0. 14 per liter.

10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – now frozen globally.

11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.

12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US $5 ,000

14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15

15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree

16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.

So far the people don't sound all that oppressed, and as George S says, "why people rebel against him?".

Kind of sounds like these people...



"Most Syrians back President Assad, but you'd never know from western media
Assad's popularity, Arab League observers, US military involvement: all distorted in the west's propaganda war"

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=28722

Today, noone in their right mind believes -
1. the war in Iraq was ANYTHING other than a grab for oil or
2. the war in Afghanistan anything than a grab for 90% of the worlds heroin production and the trillions it's worth and the estimated trillion dollar mineral deposits.
3.Libya was about oil and massive gold reserves and Gaddafi's scheming to set a gold standard currency firstly amongst African countries and then the world.

I think maybe I should have stuck with the rest of the MTO members and the stick figure with the 10 foot pole.

Last edited by Brian; 01-19-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:15 PM   #6
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Brian, if you don't think that any of these regimes oppressed their own people, then you have serious psychological issues. Further, providing services for free, such as the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany did, does not mean that people are not oppressed.

The motivations for war in these countries are not a topic of debate in this thread. The slave mentality is.
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:44 PM   #7
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Has this young Macedonian woman undergone a moral revolution and shed the slave mentality?

Quote:
Нема зошто промените да ги бараме во врвот, промената секогаш доаѓа од доле, а почнува во секој од нас. Да престанеме да постоиме како реакција и да почнеме да постоиме како сила која одлучува

http://www.makdenes.org/content/article/24457591.html
In her article, she argues that the Macedonian citizenry needs to actively engage in the political process and take control of their country. What a radical thought...for a Macedonian. She may be someone we can work with in Macedonia.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:34 PM   #8
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She is definitely in the minority. But nice to read.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:08 PM   #9
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Interesting Tom.

I think it takes alot of experience, alot of reading and alot of years to begin to understand that these ideas are more than just 'ideas' people throw around. Did you ever notice how the 'founding fathers' of the United States, were old? I think age sometimes has something to do with it. I believe they understood the importance of freedom of speech, of equal representation ...etc as more than just guiding principles, but as fundamental values basic to the prosperity of all humanity, but that this appreciation came with the experience of loss, of suffering indignity and humiliation, and education.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:49 AM   #10
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There is the generation gap they don't understand the older generation.
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