Genetics and DNA of Balkan Populations

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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    #31
    I would like to emphasize guys that the data does not support the theory that macedonians are similar to greeks or vice or versa.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      #32
      L:et me destroy all your arguments poliguris and others.One and for all Proving that Macedonians were different.What was ALEXANDER THE GREAT CALLED THE .....................................MACEDONIAN.IF HE WAS GREEK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED THAT.ALSO PROOF THAT MACEDONIANS SPOKE THEIR OWN MOTHER TOUNGE IS IN THE GREEK TEXTS OF ARRIAN AND PLUTARCH.Do people know that the greek govt has LIED to its people that it changed the greek texts to suit themselves .THey spent millions,to change litarary texts WHICH PROVE THAT MACEDONIANS ARE NOT THE SAME AS GREEKS.THey tried to destroy some ,change others they were on a literary crusade
      to lie to the world about the greeks BY APPROPRIATING EVERYTHING MACEDONIAN AS GREEK.YOU guys LOSE AGAIN.
      Also look at the timeline the greeks claim they have 4000 years of unbroken history.THey weren't in greece for 4000 years they are LYINGAT best the greeks arrived as aechaens abot 3000 bc then they got their alphabet from the phoenicians about 800 bc.800 bc the greek hellenes came.SO the greeks are stealing other people's culture and history and calling it their OWN.You know why To BOLSTER GREEK NATIONALISM TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR.TELLING THEM That they have 4000 years of history A LIE,TELLING THEM that THEIR GLORY is THE MACEDONIAN GLORY Another LIE.ETC ETC ETC
      Last edited by George S.; 08-20-2014, 05:13 AM.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13669

        #33
        Originally posted by Poligiros
        .......Macedonian history is clearly a Hellenic legacy.
        Wrong. It is our, Macedonian, legacy. Your twisted views don't belong here.
        Originally posted by Kalle
        There is a discussion page where you can validate all your evidence and maybe insert your rewrite of 4000 years of history.
        That figure always makes me laugh. 4,000 years ago neither Macedonians or Greeks existed as ethnic groups.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Philosopher
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1003

          #34
          Addendum

          Originally posted by Philosopher
          The study clearly links Greeks in the same cluster. Bulgaria was not mentioned. Not sure why.
          I know why. I reviewed the study, and here is what I turned up. Using the DRB1 allele, the Macedonian population was closest in genetic distance (GD) to these populations in order:

          Greek 6.35
          Croat 7.9
          Cretan 8.63
          Turk 10.59
          Romanian 10.66
          Italian 11.53
          Spanish (Murcia) 14.3
          Bulgarian 15.03
          Sardinian 19.47

          In this study, Bulgarians are distantly related to Macedonians.

          Comment

          • SoutherNeighbour
            Junior Member
            • Aug 2014
            • 67

            #35
            Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
            Hi Southern Neighbor,

            Nobody denies that the Balkans are mixed, however your generalisations above are quite obscure? Reading various reputable studies
            Παπαριές ολκής μάγκα μου.Όσο Έλληνας είσαι εσύ άλλο τόσο Έλληνες είναι οι κάτοικοι της Οχρίδας να πούμε.

            It's not a matter of studies and politically charged research from both sides.Its bs propaganda to use ''reputable'' studies to prove any link between modern neo-Greeks and ancient lineage.

            The Balkans are a melting pot.We the neo-Greeks are a bastard nation and no study can change this.You are only Greek because you choose to identify as such.Believing the Hellenism crap and propaganda works wonders.

            Its a matter of self determination.If a concrete group of people based on their ethnogenesis process wants to identify as ethnic Macedonians it is their right to do so.Nobody refuses you the right to self identify as Greek.By all means please continue to identify as such.

            The million dollar question though is: what does Greek mean?Once you get over the hellenic narrative then it will be much easier to accept that being νεοέλληνας means you are a part of a bastard nation made up mostly of asian settlers, Albanians, Bulgarians and so on.

            Προσωπικά εμένα δε με ενοχλεί που ανήκω σε ένα μπάσταρδο γενετικά έθνος.Έσένα?
            Last edited by SoutherNeighbour; 08-20-2014, 09:01 PM.

            Comment

            • Dejan
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 589

              #36
              Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
              Just a reminder of my post regarding the genetics of Greeks and Macedonians that is connected to what you're explaining above:

              Let's clear this up once and for all. There has been evidence of all sorts displayed for both sides of the argument, I would like to see all of the information consolidated here, so we can validate this argument or discard it altogether. If anybody has any material on the matter, please post it here. Black Athena and other


              Adding to that,the most frequent haplogroup in Macedonian DNA is I2a (34%),which originated some 17 000 years ago in the Balkan peninsula.
              Meaning,Greeks migrated to the Balkan peninsula from East Africa,while Macedonians were there to begin with.

              And another interesting point - R1a (found in 50%> in Russians,Ukrainians,Slovenes,Poles and other Slavic nations) is found in both Macedonian (around 15%) AND Greek (as high as 22% in some areas) DNA.
              They should think again before they use the term "filthy Slav" again.

              That's the whole argument: If we Macedonians are 'slavs', then so are the pure hellenes to the south
              You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

              A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8530

                #37
                Originally posted by SoutherNeighbour View Post
                Παπαριές ολκής μάγκα μου.Όσο Έλληνας είσαι εσύ άλλο τόσο Έλληνες είναι οι κάτοικοι της Οχρίδας να πούμε.

                It's not a matter of studies and politically charged research from both sides.Its bs propaganda to use ''reputable'' studies to prove any link between modern neo-Greeks and ancient lineage.

                The Balkans are a melting pot.We the neo-Greeks are a bastard nation and no study can change this.You are only Greek because you choose to identify as such.Believing the Hellenism crap and propaganda works wonders.

                Its a matter of self determination.If a concrete group of people based on their ethnogenesis process wants to identify as ethnic Macedonians it is their right to do so.Nobody refuses you the right to self identify as Greek.By all means please continue to identify as such.

                The million dollar question though is: what does Greek mean?Once you get over the hellenic narrative then it will be much easier to accept that being νεοέλληνας means you are a part of a bastard nation made up mostly of asian settlers, Albanians, Bulgarians and so on.

                Προσωπικά εμένα δε με ενοχλεί που ανήκω σε ένα μπάσταρδο γενετικά έθνος.Έσένα?
                SouthernNeighbour, because this is a Macedonian forum we have a policy of using either English or Macedonian. Using Greek limits the amount of readers that can understand the post to virtually only a handful. I'll ask you to please post in English.
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • Poligiros
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2014
                  • 121

                  #38
                  Originally posted by SoutherNeighbour View Post
                  Παπαριές ολκής μάγκα μου.Όσο Έλληνας είσαι εσύ άλλο τόσο Έλληνες είναι οι κάτοικοι της Οχρίδας να πούμε.

                  It's not a matter of studies and politically charged research from both sides.Its bs propaganda to use ''reputable'' studies to prove any link between modern neo-Greeks and ancient lineage.

                  The Balkans are a melting pot.We the neo-Greeks are a bastard nation and no study can change this.You are only Greek because you choose to identify as such.Believing the Hellenism crap and propaganda works wonders.

                  Its a matter of self determination.If a concrete group of people based on their ethnogenesis process wants to identify as ethnic Macedonians it is their right to do so.Nobody refuses you the right to self identify as Greek.By all means please continue to identify as such.

                  The million dollar question though is: what does Greek mean?Once you get over the hellenic narrative then it will be much easier to accept that being νεοέλληνας means you are a part of a bastard nation made up mostly of asian settlers, Albanians, Bulgarians and so on.

                  Προσωπικά εμένα δε με ενοχλεί που ανήκω σε ένα μπάσταρδο γενετικά έθνος.Έσένα?
                  Hi Southern Neighbor,

                  You are taking basic facts about the Hellenic populace, ethos and making incomprehensible assertions and wild variations to discredit the Hellenic perspective on the Macedonian Q. Mostly Asian settlers??? this is totally inaccurate unless you are referring to the Pakistani/Syrian refugees in recent years. Regardless if you are referring to Pontians and Karamanlides, they have self identified as Hellenes for thousands of years even if they re-settled in mainland Hellenic republic.

                  Our people are MAINLY derived from Romai, a Hellenic speaking and Greek identifying people that have lived in the same geographic location throughout the ages. Rehashing facts about minorities that have moved into the region is not going to change the fact that we have had a Hellenic ethos, language and culture much like the ancients. Sure the Balkans is mixed friend, nobody denies that fact.

                  As for denying these people the right to be "Macedonian", most of us Hellenes don't have a problem with that, its common reputable and historical facts that seem to be altered for propaganda purposes (on all sides) that causes issues.

                  In addition, I assume you are from Aegean Macedonia? Are you a native Hellene or a Pontian? My family is derived from Chalkidiki 3kms from the ancient Macedonian settlement of Olynthos, most people on this forum deny me the right to determine as a Macedonian and claim this as their native land. Even if anyone mentions what reputable historians state about the nature of Ancient Macedonians, they get threatened with a Ban.

                  In conclusion, I have conversed and engaged with decent Macedonian people in private on this forum, and we have more in common, building friendships rather than preaching hatred and warped interpretations of what it means to be Macedonian. Also, I live in the diaspora, hence from certain perspectives, I don't have a right to debate and discuss as I am not even a Balkan resident.

                  Regards.

                  Comment

                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    #39
                    Poligiros you have nno right to call yourself firstly GREEK of all things YTOU ARE A TURK.
                    Furthere more YOU have absolutely NO NO RIGHT NO RIGHT TO CALL YOURSELF A MACEDONIAN>NONE AT ALL.I regard you as a floating piece of shit in the river of life.FRom the comments you have made blaspheming agains't US TRUE MACEDONIANS.YOU dob;t desrve any recognition as even remotely of a human being.
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV

                    Comment

                    • Phoenix
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 4671

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                      Hi Southern Neighbor,

                      You are taking basic facts about the Hellenic populace, ethos and making incomprehensible assertions and wild variations to discredit the Hellenic perspective on the Macedonian Q. Mostly Asian settlers??? this is totally inaccurate unless you are referring to the Pakistani/Syrian refugees in recent years. Regardless if you are referring to Pontians and Karamanlides, they have self identified as Hellenes for thousands of years even if they re-settled in mainland Hellenic republic.

                      Our people are MAINLY derived from Romai, a Hellenic speaking and Greek identifying people that have lived in the same geographic location throughout the ages. Rehashing facts about minorities that have moved into the region is not going to change the fact that we have had a Hellenic ethos, language and culture much like the ancients. Sure the Balkans is mixed friend, nobody denies that fact.

                      As for denying these people the right to be "Macedonian", most of us Hellenes don't have a problem with that, its common reputable and historical facts that seem to be altered for propaganda purposes (on all sides) that causes issues.

                      In addition, I assume you are from Aegean Macedonia? Are you a native Hellene or a Pontian? My family is derived from Chalkidiki 3kms from the ancient Macedonian settlement of Olynthos, most people on this forum deny me the right to determine as a Macedonian and claim this as their native land. Even if anyone mentions what reputable historians state about the nature of Ancient Macedonians, they get threatened with a Ban.

                      In conclusion, I have conversed and engaged with decent Macedonian people in private on this forum, and we have more in common, building friendships rather than preaching hatred and warped interpretations of what it means to be Macedonian. Also, I live in the diaspora, hence from certain perspectives, I don't have a right to debate and discuss as I am not even a Balkan resident.

                      Regards.
                      Poligiros,

                      I reckon you're full of shit.

                      As a Greek, you haven't got the slightest genuine empathy with a Macedonian identity...for you and the rest of your fellow bullshit artists it has become a newly adopted regional identity that you like flashing around.

                      I've seen it all first hand champ, from Greeks of all ages and this great awakening that you all had happened in the mid 1980's.

                      Perhaps you weren't even born when your parents would regularly curse anything remotely labelled 'Macedonian' or they'd simply treat it with the indifference of anything that's of no interest to them.

                      From my personal experiences, the biggest Greek-'Macedonians'
                      are the Turkish refugees, the ones who's language and culture was predominantly Turkish, the ones that the Greek government went to great lengths to 'hellenize' on their resettlement on the newly acquired lands of Macedonia...

                      These refugees have never truly been embraced as Greeks, you know that...that's why they have so easily and readily adopted this hybrid identity as 'Greek Macedonians'. They've filled a void in the Greek demographic that was opened up by the Greek government in the 80's.

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8530

                        #41
                        There is a really good article by V. Hionidou in the Journal of Modern Greek Studies (Vol. 30, No. 1, May 2012), "Abroad I was Greek and in Greece I am a Foreigner: Pontic Greeks from the Former Soviet Union in Greece".

                        This article specifically looks at Pontic Greeks who originally migrated from Anatolia to Russia, remained for a generation or two (some more) and then migrated to Greece.

                        Two interesting points are discovered throughout her research interviews with them.

                        Firstly, they themselves originally identified as Romaíoi (Christians in the Ottoman millet system), then Prósfiyes (refugees once they arrived to Greece), then Póndioi (Pontians because Prósfiyes became derogatory) and finally 'real' Greeks because a generation or two have passed since their arrival in Greece. Now, it seems they are the 'real' Macedonians. Within the span of about 3-5 generations, these people and their descendants changed their identity at least 4 times. This tells me that they really have no idea who or what they were/are and their identity is constructed by those around them.

                        Secondly, native Greeks don't accept them as Greeks but identify them either as Prósfiyes or more specifically, Rosopóndioi (Russian-Pontics) or just Rósoi (Russians). This tells me that "Greeks" do not accept their so-called brothers from the Pontus as Greek, but continue to call them for what they became - Russians, after being Christians in the Ottoman millet system. Eventually, I guess, their descendants will become Greeks but only through a process of Hellenization and not due to thousands of years of maintaining ancient Greek culture (which in fact has nothing to do with modern Greek culture).

                        Some other interesting points are raised in that these Pontic Greeks openly admit that they cannot speak Greek and that they needed to learn Greek once they arrived in Greece - though they continued to have Russian accents.

                        A quote:

                        Even at the start of the twentieth century, Russia, with its focus on Orthodoxy, continued to be the sole destination of emigrating Pontic Greeks, all disregarding the calls for them to remain in Ottoman Turkey "for the good of Hellenism." "In vain," writes Xanthopoúlou-Kiriakoú, "would someone try to prove to them that Russia was the enemy of Hellenism, while she persecutes the Greek language and the Greek letters. He would receive the answer that that does not mean anything, since she [Russia] has the same religion with us" (Xanthopoúlou-Kiriakoú 1997:114-115 referring to 1907-1908). Russia was regarded as an extension of the Pontic world, a place where their language and customs could be sustained (Bryer 1976:179). It was, in all probability, the centrality of religion in defining the identity of the Pontic Greeks while in the Ottoman Empire that determined such a perception.7 For Russia, too, the nation's identity was focused on Orthodox Christianity, making this an attractive destination for Pontic Greeks (Suny 2001a).
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • Poligiros
                          Banned
                          • Mar 2014
                          • 121

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                          Poligiros,

                          I reckon you're full of shit.

                          As a Greek, you haven't got the slightest genuine empathy with a Macedonian identity...for you and the rest of your fellow bullshit artists it has become a newly adopted regional identity that you like flashing around.

                          I've seen it all first hand champ, from Greeks of all ages and this great awakening that you all had happened in the mid 1980's.

                          Perhaps you weren't even born when your parents would regularly curse anything remotely labelled 'Macedonian' or they'd simply treat it with the indifference of anything that's of no interest to them.

                          From my personal experiences, the biggest Greek-'Macedonians'
                          are the Turkish refugees, the ones who's language and culture was predominantly Turkish, the ones that the Greek government went to great lengths to 'hellenize' on their resettlement on the newly acquired lands of Macedonia...

                          These refugees have never truly been embraced as Greeks, you know that...that's why they have so easily and readily adopted this hybrid identity as 'Greek Macedonians'. They've filled a void in the Greek demographic that was opened up by the Greek government in the 80's.
                          As for being full of shit, that is your opinion, if you don't want me to respond and discuss, I wont. Its your forum!

                          However, I don't know why everything reverts back to the Pontians that migrated to Aegean Macedonia? I have no doubt, and from ones I have met a lot of them are very nationalistic and feel an affinity to Macedonia. From my understanding as you stated, they too have a Hellenic ancestry and lineage with Romai, they probably feel a connection with Greece and the region they reside.

                          My point is there were native Hellenes in Aegean Macedonia, and according to many of you, I have no right to claim anything Macedonian. I am not sure about dates, but I can assure you my father referred to his part of Greece as Makedonia a lot earlier than you suggest!

                          In addition, you can't answer my important query. If your Greater RoMacedonia maps include my native town in Chalkidiki and including the island of Thassos, can you provide a link or empathy to this region and iterate what that is?

                          Regards

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8530

                            #43
                            I suppose the good thing about the Romaíoi/Prósfiyes/Póndioi/Greeks/Macedonians is that they'll soon tire of their recently-acquired Macedonian identity and move on to something new...perhaps Pomaks will be next.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              #44
                              poligiris as i told you is the best to be happy you are an anatolian pontiac.I see the greek govt and greeks are alao giving you the raw deal that is expected what can you expect from a govt who exterminates its own people and its macedonian minorities.You govt doesn't even care for you and you are proud to call yourself either greek or macedonian.As i said before think about how you became macedonian we will never accept youv as a macedonian as you are not of the macedonian race .If you were of the macedonian race i would be the fist to admit it that you are macedonian.
                              After all the lies and attrocities your govt has committed against the macedonian people we are not going to recognize you at all.I;m not sorry to spoil it for you.
                              Also whatever your govt has taught you about macedonians is a huuge lie and the greek govt is continually lying to you.The govt asking you to beleive ridiculous claims.THe greek govt is turning history and claims for the sole purpose of bolstering greek nationalism.
                              Greek nationalism is at the forefront telling its people that they own the macedonian legacy of the glory of alexander.Please tell me if that is not ridiculoius or not.
                              We know what the greek govt has done is wipe the macedonian people out and take their land is not
                              sorry for doing it.
                              AS i said allready you don't have a leg to stand on.You are just wasting your time even commenting.My arguments have got you cornered.Greeks are different race to the macedonians.What are you doing is stealing.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • makedonche
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 3242

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Dejan View Post
                                That's the whole argument: If we Macedonians are 'slavs', then so are the pure hellenes to the south
                                Dejan
                                I wouldn't go that far bratko, I hate being associated with them in any way shape or form! They would be blessed to be able to call themselves Slavs!
                                On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                                Comment

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