Genetics and DNA of Balkan Populations

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  • Phoenix
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 4671

    #16
    Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
    Forget that obsession with dna and genetic studies as a proof of someones ethnicity. The last ones who did it were the Nazis
    Do you have the slightest clue of how pathetic you are, not just on a personal and individual level but as a wider social and political group?

    You're the very people most like the Nazis in all of Europe.

    You base some of histories most ridiculous claims on things like language, whereby you deny an entire group of people their own history and the natural right to self determination because of things like language and that's perfectly logical to you.

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      #17
      Bingo.

      There is no way that this farce can perpetuate indefinitely, one day it has to all fall apart, I mean just look at him. I just pray to god that I am alive to see it all come down.


      QUOTE=Phoenix;152365]Do you have the slightest clue of how pathetic you are, not just on a personal and individual level but as a wider social and political group?

      You're the very people most like the Nazis in all of Europe.

      You base some of histories most ridiculous claims on things like language, whereby you deny an entire group of people their own history and the natural right to self determination because of things like language and that's perfectly logical to you.[/QUOTE]

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8530

        #18
        Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
        Forget that obsession with dna and genetic studies as a proof of someones ethnicity.
        This is an extraordinary admission for a Greek...one that I don't think AT has fully thought through just yet for his own people's claims.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          #19
          i',m of the opinion you are who you identify as not as others see you.Ever since the greeks set foot after 1912 in the balkan wars in the aegean area they have been trying to justify
          their foothold on the land.They have tried to at best very hard.The best they can do is their famous or infamous propaganda machinme.For one thing its a desperate attempt to prevent the rise and return of the macedonians.Look at how everything is geared to stop macedonians and how they feel about themselves.WE have conquered much more difficult things the least of which could be greek objection to our exiostence but we have a right to exist like anyone
          else .
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • SoutherNeighbour
            Junior Member
            • Aug 2014
            • 67

            #20
            Originally posted by George S. View Post
            i',m of the opinion you are who you identify as not as others see you.
            Spot on mate!

            Obviously thats how advanced communities should treat people.It doesnt matter what genes and bullshit studies show.What matters is how one identifies.

            Why do u even entertain the idea of answering the Greek propaganda with gene studies etc is just beyond me.You simply need to remind the Greeks that they are a bunch of Turks,Bulgarians,Albanians etc who self identify as Greeks.

            I am a neo-hellene myself and I feel very comfortable accepting the fact that I come from a genetically bastard nation.

            Try to help the other Greeks wake up to this fact.

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              #21
              SN well said the good decent people are slowly coming out of the woodwoek and they realize they are being fed bs by the greek govt for years.People are awakening to what really is going on they are saying enough is enough.Why the govt is telling the greeks TO HATE THE ROM MACEDONIANS and paint them as land grabbers irrendist types which isn't true.I think the ordinary greek doesn't get that hate message when they cross the borser where its cheaper.Perhaps thats where the notion of nationality dissapears and you are thought of as one.Good on you SN welcome aboard the MTO.YOu can see what is really the matter with them on this forum.cheers george S.
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • Philosopher
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1003

                #22
                HLA Genes in Albanian Population

                An HLA alleles study was performed on the Albanian population.

                Human leucocyte antigen (HLA) alleles are very interesting markers in identifying population relation-ships. Moreover, their frequency distribution data are important in the implementation of donor–recipient registry programs for transplantation purposes and also in determining the genetic predisposition for many diseases. For these reasons, we studied the HLA class I and II allele and haplotype frequencies in 160 healthy, unrelated Albanian individuals originating from all regions of the country.
                When compared with the other populations, a close relationship was
                found with North Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Romanian, Turkish, Cretan, Serbian, Croatian and Italian populations. A higher differentiation in allele frequency level was found with Western Europe populations.
                To evaluate the genetic distance of Albanians to other European populations, we calculated F ST and Nei’s genetic distances using the HLA-A, -B and -DRB1 allele frequencies in these populations. The closest relatedness is found with Bulgarian, Macedonian, Northern Greek, Romanian and Turkish population samples. In relatively less close genetic distance are the Serbian, Croatian, Cretan and Italian populations. The Western European countries’ populations such as Scottish, Welsh, German, Spanish (Ibiza Island) and Basque population samples are HLA genetically more distantly clustered.
                HLA allele and haplotype frequencies in the Albanian population and their relationship with the other European populations

                G. Sulcebe,* A. Sanchez-Mazas,† J.-M. Tiercy,‡ E. Shyti,* I. Mone,* Z. Ylli* & V. Kardhashi§

                Comment

                • Philosopher
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1003

                  #23
                  Sloppy Western Scholarship

                  In a website devoted to debunk the sub-Saharan origin of Greeks, called http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.or...an.html#_ftn53, the webmaster repeatedly uses the phrase “Vardar Slavs” to describe Macedonians. The use of “Vardar Slavs” is ubiquitous. Not content with this fact, the webmaster makes the following ignorant statement (which for some time, Wikipedia also published):

                  Vardar Slavs are similar to other Slavs in that they carry a higher percentage of the R1a haplogroup than other peoples [33,61].
                  I checked the links.

                  Citation 33 leads to the following study in Journal of Genetic Genealogy called “Where did European Men Come From?” by Kalevi Wiik.

                  In this study, on page 4, the author incorrectly lists “Greek Macedonians” as Macedonian, and confused the R1a in Greek Macedonians (35.2%) with the R1a in Macedonians. The author has Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia with 35.0%, when it is so-called Greek Macedonians who were documented to have 35%.

                  Kalevi then repeats the same error on page 34:

                  The Slovenes, Croats, and Macedonians (all of whom are Slavic-speaking) originate more strongly than others from the Ukrainian refuge. This is seen in their relatively high R1a values 29.5% in the Slovenes, 31.8% in the Croats, and 35% in the Macedonians.
                  Greeks are listed as having 11.8% R1a.

                  Not citation is provided to support this data, but it is obvious where this data originates.

                  Citation 61 leads to the following study:



                  In that study, the following statement is made:

                  The average frequency of R1a in Croatian mainland population (34%) is similar to the value of other Slavs, for example, Macedonians (35%), Czechs and Slovaks (27%).41
                  Citation 41 leads to the famous Oxford study on this issue by Semino et al.

                  The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in extant Europeans: a Y chromosome perspective. Science 2000; 290 : 1155–1159.

                  In that study, it is the population of Greek Macedonia that is listed as having 35% R1a-M17.

                  Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia only have 15.2 R1a.

                  So in both studies, we see that the authors confused so-called Greek Macedonians, who were listed with 35% R1a, with Macedonians, who were listed with 15.2%.

                  It is hard to believe this passes for scholarship. These are academic journals, and yet no one can seem to get their facts correct.

                  It is sloppy research such as this that perpetuates the Greek and Western myth about Macedonia.

                  However, is this just sloppy research, or is this deliberate deception?
                  Last edited by Philosopher; 08-19-2014, 04:03 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Philosopher
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1003

                    #24
                    It seems mainland Greeks are excluded, possibly due to the heretofore research on the sub-Saharan origin of Greeks.

                    It is not clear, however.

                    Comment

                    • Poligiros
                      Banned
                      • Mar 2014
                      • 121

                      #25
                      Originally posted by SoutherNeighbour View Post
                      Spot on mate!

                      Obviously thats how advanced communities should treat people.It doesnt matter what genes and bullshit studies show.What matters is how one identifies.

                      Why do u even entertain the idea of answering the Greek propaganda with gene studies etc is just beyond me.You simply need to remind the Greeks that they are a bunch of Turks,Bulgarians,Albanians etc who self identify as Greeks.

                      I am a neo-hellene myself and I feel very comfortable accepting the fact that I come from a genetically bastard nation.

                      Try to help the other Greeks wake up to this fact.
                      Hi Southern Neighbor,

                      Nobody denies that the Balkans are mixed, however your generalisations above are quite obscure? Reading various reputable studies, Cambridge historian such as Richard Clogg iterate the fact the the Ottoman Pashas generally left the Hellenes to their own devices during occupation. In fact we experienced harsher regimes under Venetian rule, rather than Ottoman and there was limited inter breeding.

                      However the link to modern Turkish is derived from the fact that millions of Asia minor Hellenes converted to Islam throughout the ages.

                      Also, there was a minor Arvanite population that has settled in regions of Hellenic republic, but once again all census statistics show approximate number of 50,000-180,000 in total. With the Bulgarian portion, I am not sure where that comes from?

                      "While most Greeks today are descended from Greek-speaking Romioi, there are sizeable groups of ethnic Greeks who trace their descent to Aromanian-speaking Vlachs, Albanian-speaking Arvanites, Slavophones and Turkish-speaking Karamanlides"


                      Regards,

                      Comment

                      • Phoenix
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 4671

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                        Hi Southern Neighbor,

                        Nobody denies that the Balkans are mixed, however your generalisations above are quite obscure? Reading various reputable studies, Cambridge historian such as Richard Clogg iterate the fact the the Ottoman Pashas generally left the Hellenes to their own devices during occupation. In fact we experienced harsher regimes under Venetian rule, rather than Ottoman and there was limited inter breeding.

                        However the link to modern Turkish is derived from the fact that millions of Asia minor Hellenes converted to Islam throughout the ages.

                        Also, there was a minor Arvanite population that has settled in regions of Hellenic republic, but once again all census statistics show approximate number of 50,000-180,000 in total. With the Bulgarian portion, I am not sure where that comes from?

                        "While most Greeks today are descended from Greek-speaking Romioi, there are sizeable groups of ethnic Greeks who trace their descent to Aromanian-speaking Vlachs, Albanian-speaking Arvanites, Slavophones and Turkish-speaking Karamanlides"


                        Regards,
                        Sunshine,

                        You have an interesting set of rules for the Greeks, or the Romioi if you prefer.
                        It seems that the 'rules' are quite flexible in terms of nomenclature and ethnonyms for your folk.

                        Take your use of "Romioi" for example, my understanding is that it refered to people under Roman jurisdiction, the very Aromanians, arvanites, "slavophones" and Turkish speakers that you've quoted.

                        So, why is it that when the Macedonians have come under the rule of foreign powers no such luxury, in terms of identity or even self determination is afforded to them, by the likes of you and your fascist cohorts?

                        Comment

                        • Kalle
                          Banned
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 7

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                          Sunshine,

                          You have an interesting set of rules for the Greeks, or the Romioi if you prefer.
                          It seems that the 'rules' are quite flexible in terms of nomenclature and ethnonyms for your folk.

                          Take your use of "Romioi" for example, my understanding is that it refered to people under Roman jurisdiction, the very Aromanians, arvanites, "slavophones" and Turkish speakers that you've quoted.

                          So, why is it that when the Macedonians have come under the rule of foreign powers no such luxury, in terms of identity or even self determination is afforded to them, by the likes of you and your fascist cohorts?
                          Because no university , historian or museum supports the history version you can see in this site.

                          The sad truth is that your version of history has not even reached the wiki page for the Australian Macedonian diaspora (read the history section). Maybe you should start there? There is a discussion page where you can validate all your evidence and maybe insert your rewrite of 4000 years of history. Otherwise this is what the world will know about you and your history.

                          Comment

                          • Dejan
                            Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 589

                            #28
                            Really? Wikipedia?
                            You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

                            A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

                            Comment

                            • Phoenix
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2008
                              • 4671

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Kalle View Post
                              Because no university , historian or museum supports the history version you can see in this site.

                              The sad truth is that your version of history has not even reached the wiki page for the Australian Macedonian diaspora (read the history section). Maybe you should start there? There is a discussion page where you can validate all your evidence and maybe insert your rewrite of 4000 years of history. Otherwise this is what the world will know about you and your history.

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Australian
                              Weren't you the guy asking somebody on here if they've gone to university?

                              Perhaps if you ever get there, maybe somebody will enlighten you about the academic credibility of wikipedia.

                              If you can draw yourself away from wikis bright light for a second, perhaps you can explain to me the quote in 'poligiros' post mentioning the "slavophones"...

                              Who do you think are these people who never seem to be afforded the dignity of belonging to an ethnic group...and why is the term itself only ever used in reference to a large group of anonymous people living in a particular part of the Balkans and always used by Greek universities, Greek historians, Greek museums and those perpetuating a Greek historical revisionism?

                              Comment

                              • DraganOfStip
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2011
                                • 1253

                                #30
                                Just a reminder of my post regarding the genetics of Greeks and Macedonians that is connected to what you're explaining above:

                                Let's clear this up once and for all. There has been evidence of all sorts displayed for both sides of the argument, I would like to see all of the information consolidated here, so we can validate this argument or discard it altogether. If anybody has any material on the matter, please post it here. Black Athena and other


                                Adding to that,the most frequent haplogroup in Macedonian DNA is I2a (34%),which originated some 17 000 years ago in the Balkan peninsula.
                                Meaning,Greeks migrated to the Balkan peninsula from East Africa,while Macedonians were there to begin with.

                                And another interesting point - R1a (found in 50%> in Russians,Ukrainians,Slovenes,Poles and other Slavic nations) is found in both Macedonian (around 15%) AND Greek (as high as 22% in some areas) DNA.
                                They should think again before they use the term "filthy Slav" again.
                                Last edited by DraganOfStip; 08-20-2014, 02:55 AM.
                                ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                                ― George Orwell

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