Slave Mentality

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #16
    It was moved here:
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      #17
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      Vangelovski might as well be added to this, also:

      One of the first things I learned from Property Law class is that America's manifestation of Locke's principles on property rights unleashed one of the greatest continuing injustices to this Earth. Further, this philosophy instilled in Americans, and people globally, that the individual is the master of property, and that property is whatever he can control, be it another human, animal, plant, or natural resource. The slave mentality has only been advanced by these Lockean/American ideas that we are the masters of others. And when you have a system (this current system we live in) in which supports and props up masters, you cannot lay all, or the majority of, the blame on the "slave". And yes -- this influential corporate structure of America economic and political life enslaves many people...just not nearly as many "at home" than in other countries. We have the Obama administration actively against raising the minimum wage in Haiti because US corporations would lose money by doing so. We have US policy holding African nations hostage in a water shortage and quality crisis because Coca-Cola has a profit to make through their Dasani brand. Further, you have American policy influenced by the IMF that is holding down any sorts of African development because of financial investments. Then you have American corporations holding African nations in continual food crises, as they sell their over-produced food to Africans at lower prices than local African farmers can afford to price, wiping out the food production capabilities of entire communities, rendering the people dependent on the USA for "progressive" policies that will feed their people.

      Posting as if the arrival of Christians to America somehow liberated peoples here and around the world with their understanding and "advancement" of natural and inalienable rights. When the Constitution was written, and in the early days of the United States of America, only white male, property owners of a certain age and certain religion could vote (no more than 15 percent of the nation). What was that about these early Americans being "the first to reject the notion that sovereignty lies with a hereditary monarch and establish[ing] the first democratic and republican system in which sovereignty laid with the body of citizens"? Property owners passed on their property to their descendants...from 1600s until the writing of the constitution. This "hereditary" monarchy was just involved a few more people. White, Christian Americans cared first and foremost about economic opportunities...and most of them only their own economic opportunities. Further, any hint of legitimate democracy that MAY have once existed within the federal American structure is long gone, and the local levels (states and towns) are struggling to maintain any sort of actual democratic governance.
      Last edited by vicsinad; 04-06-2012, 10:47 AM.

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8530

        #18
        Victor,

        I will give you the same warning as I did others with comprehension problems. Keep it on topic or it will be moved.

        All in all, spoken like a true SDSM man who can't help but contradict himself and act like a hypocrite no matter what the situation. I am interested to know, though, how exactly you came by the idea that Locke promoted slavery? Was it a result of your property law 101 lecturer?
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • vicsinad
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 2337

          #19
          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
          Victor,

          I will give you the same warning as I did others with comprehension problems. Keep it on topic or it will be moved.

          All in all, spoken like a true SDSM man who can't help but contradict himself and act like a hypocrite no matter what the situation. I am interested to know, though, how exactly you came by the idea that Locke promoted slavery? Was it a result of your property law 101 lecturer?
          It's easy to say something's off topic when on no less that three occasions in your original posting you go long-winded about some topic or another and then claim it's irrelevant all for the sake of being able to continue discussing the issues that you think are relevant to slave mentality and ignore the ones that others think are relevant. Talk about hypocrisy.

          Did I say Locke promoted slavery? I said America's manifestation of Lockean principles and ideas. Talk about comprehension problems.

          Actually, they don't have lecturers in law school (or at least my institution, i don't know about the law schools you're familiar with). They have professors. But that's besides the point -- it doesn't matter who the idea came from, it matters that the idea is out there. And when you try exceedingly hard to attempt to discredit ideas by associating them with SDSM or basic property law classes (as differentiated from one that's at level 301, I would assume?), you succeed at only making a fool of yourself.
          Last edited by vicsinad; 04-06-2012, 04:20 PM.

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8530

            #20
            Victor,

            To 'manifest' something basically means to implement it. By saying that America 'manifested' Lockes principles you are saying they implemented what Locke advocated and hence the original idea lies with him. I can't believe that I have to give you basic English lessons while having you accuse me of comprehension problems. You don't even know what you are trying to say!
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              #21
              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
              Victor,

              To 'manifest' something basically means to implement it. By saying that America 'manifested' Lockes principles you are saying they implemented what Locke advocated and hence the original idea lies with him. I can't believe that I have to give you basic English lessons while having you accuse me of comprehension problems. You don't even know what you are trying to say!
              Again, another lesson on comprehension AND logic problems...and I guess English language problems:

              If, as you say, to manifest something means to implement something, then when I say "America's manifestation" we will agree that I mean "America's implementation." Now when people implement things they can do so wholly, partly, correctly, or incorrectly. If you don't agree with this, then you're lost.

              So when I say America's manifestation, I'm mean America's way of displaying Lockean principles. And of course, those who have surpassed elementary school in the English language understand that things are to be read in context...and when read in context, manifest entails an element of implementation that goes beyond the surface, which includes utilization.

              I will try to write more simply for you because you're having trouble with context.

              Comment

              • vicsinad
                Senior Member
                • May 2011
                • 2337

                #22
                And yes...I equate Lockean principles and ideas with slavery of the Earth.

                Comment

                • Vangelovski
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 8530

                  #23
                  Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                  Again, another lesson on comprehension AND logic problems...and I guess English language problems:

                  If, as you say, to manifest something means to implement something, then when I say "America's manifestation" we will agree that I mean "America's implementation." Now when people implement things they can do so wholly, partly, correctly, or incorrectly. If you don't agree with this, then you're lost.

                  So when I say America's manifestation, I'm mean America's way of displaying Lockean principles. And of course, those who have surpassed elementary school in the English language understand that things are to be read in context...and when read in context, manifest entails an element of implementation that goes beyond the surface, which includes utilization.

                  I will try to write more simply for you because you're having trouble with context.
                  Victor, you still have the same fundamental problem and you yourself admit it without knowing:

                  So when I say America's manifestation, I'm mean America's way of displaying Lockean principles.
                  You're still claiming its a "Lockean" principle. This is just another case of you making an idiotic claim and then trying to pretend that you did not. What is worse, you seemingly have done this in order to de-legitimise natural rights and responsibilities, which until yesterday, you claimed were one of your "principles"!

                  I fear that you suffer from one of the most poisonous types of the slave mentality, which you attempt to have the rest of us accept. The clear demonstration of this was yesterday when you spilt the beans on your view that Egej is a "legitimate" Greek entity and the various idiotic (and contradictory) claims you made to back it up, only to refuse to provide sources (other than Risto Stefov).
                  If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                  The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                  Comment

                  • Vangelovski
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 8530

                    #24
                    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                    And yes...I equate Lockean principles and ideas with slavery of the Earth.
                    Now you're flip-flopping again! Well, its good that you've clearly stated it at least. Care to provide your reasoning as to how/why you came to this conclusion? Everyone watch this space - this will be a fantastic demonstration of Victor's slave mentality and how he eventually came to regard Egej as a "legitimate" Greek entity.
                    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                      Victor, you still have the same fundamental problem and you yourself admit it without knowing:



                      You're still claiming its a "Lockean" principle. This is just another case of you making an idiotic claim and then trying to pretend that you did not. What is worse, you seemingly have done this in order to de-legitimise natural rights and responsibilities, which until yesterday, you claimed were one of your "principles"!

                      I fear that you suffer from one of the most poisonous types of the slave mentality, which you attempt to have the rest of us accept. The clear demonstration of this was yesterday when you spilt the beans on your view that Egej is a "legitimate" Greek entity and the various idiotic (and contradictory) claims you made to back it up, only to refuse to provide sources (other than Risto Stefov).
                      Lockean principles serve as pillars and justification for American slavery...slavery of the land, slavery of animals, slavery of people, slavery of resources.

                      I never suggested or even implied that I was de-legitimizing natural rights. Rather, my response was in response to this:

                      "It was Christians who left Europe because of persecution in the early 17th century who understood our natural inalienable rights more than any other group. They settled in what is now the United States and formed their own democratic governance systems to govern their colonies and regulate relations between individuals on both political and economic matters. In essence, they were the first to reject the notion that sovereignty lies with a hereditary monarch and established the first democratic and republican system in which sovereignty laid with the body of citizens."

                      It cannot be me who suffers from the slave mentality when it is not me claiming that we have oppressors every where we turn...that we're oppressed from every direction...that we're victims of every wolf. You want Macedonians to be oppressed and the victims so you can continually blame Macedonia's neighbors AND practically every Macedonian who doesn't conform to your views of being the root problems...thus leaving no Macedonian, along with no Serb, Greek, Bulgarian, or Albanian, with any escape in your ego-driven game.

                      If there's anyone who suffers any sort of symptom, it's you and your delusions.
                      Last edited by vicsinad; 04-06-2012, 05:17 PM.

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                        Now you're flip-flopping again! Well, its good that you've clearly stated it at least. Care to provide your reasoning as to how/why you came to this conclusion? Everyone watch this space - this will be a fantastic demonstration of Victor's slave mentality and how he eventually came to regard Egej as a "legitimate" Greek entity.
                        How can I flip-flop when I never once stated the opposite of what I just stated?

                        Roughly, under Locke, property does not exist without labor. One has to "use" the land (the animal) for it to be his. In essence, one has to exploit it. Thus, according to Locke, you have to tear-up the land to own it. Further, Locke also believed that people could have "natural property rights" to "natural resources", when there is no evidence of pre-ownership.

                        And here comes Christian Europeans...

                        Native Americans didn't "use" the lands as productively as the Europeans could, so of course they had no property rights to the land!
                        Because early American (and English) courts assumed these views, and versions of them, generations of enslavement (from people to animals to resources) have been, and are being, justified.

                        Comment

                        • Vangelovski
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 8530

                          #27
                          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                          Lockean principles serve as pillars and justification for American slavery...slavery of the land, slavery of animals, slavery of people, slavery of resources.

                          I never suggested or even implied that I was de-legitimizing natural rights. Rather, my response was in response to this:

                          "It was Christians who left Europe because of persecution in the early 17th century who understood our natural inalienable rights more than any other group. They settled in what is now the United States and formed their own democratic governance systems to govern their colonies and regulate relations between individuals on both political and economic matters. In essence, they were the first to reject the notion that sovereignty lies with a hereditary monarch and established the first democratic and republican system in which sovereignty laid with the body of citizens."

                          It cannot be me who suffers from the slave mentality when it is not me claiming that we have oppressors every where we turn...that we're oppressed from every direction...that we're victims of every wolf. You want Macedonians to be oppressed and the victims so you can continually blame Macedonia's neighbors AND practically every Macedonian who doesn't conform to your views of being the root problems...thus leaving no Macedonian, along with no Serb, Greek, Bulgarian, or Albanian, with any escape in your ego-driven game.

                          If there's anyone who suffers any sort of symptom, it's you and your delusions.
                          Your right Victor, Serb dancing and accepting over 50 per cent of Macedonia as a "legitimate" Greek entity is not a symptom of the slave mentality. Tell me Victor, seeing as you accept that Egej is a "legitimate" Greek entity, do you also accept that Greece has a "legitimate" grievance in relation to Macedonia's identity? If over 50 per cent of Macedonia is "legitimately" Greek, then surely they have a "legitimate" concern over the name and the various identity issues that stem from it, according to your logic.
                          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8530

                            #28
                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            How can I flip-flop when I never once stated the opposite of what I just stated?

                            Roughly, under Locke, property does not exist without labor. One has to "use" the land (the animal) for it to be his. In essence, one has to exploit it. Thus, according to Locke, you have to tear-up the land to own it. Further, Locke also believed that people could have "natural property rights" to "natural resources", when there is no evidence of pre-ownership.

                            And here comes Christian Europeans...

                            Native Americans didn't "use" the lands as productively as the Europeans could, so of course they had no property rights to the land!
                            Because early American (and English) courts assumed these views, and versions of them, generations of enslavement (from people to animals to resources) have been, and are being, justified.
                            Three points on this one.

                            Firstly, I was hoping you would provide examples or citations from Locke's own work, not more of your own dribble.

                            Secondly, is it correct that you believe property rights (in general) enslave people? Or are you referring to Locke's supposed views on property rights, which you believe enslaves people? If the latter, I will have to refer you back to the first point above and require some actual corroboration/examples of Locke's own work and how his views on property rights supposedly enslave people.

                            Finally, don't confuse the various forms of enslavement as one and the same. This thread is referring to a very specific form of enslavement. I will only warn you one more time - make your comments relevant or make them on another thread.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • vicsinad
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2011
                              • 2337

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                              I will only warn you one more time - make your comments relevant or make them on another thread.
                              Democracy in action.

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                #30
                                One thing i noticed people don't readily admit they got the slave mentality.They aren't even aware they got it & when they do what do they do NOTHING,just whinge & whine fror the sake of some principle.One thing i also noticed that races like greeks & romans practiced slavery BUT Macedonia didn't practice slavey.In macedonia everyone was a free man.Remember how demosthenes said in greece you can buy a decent slave in macedonia you can't.One thing that stuck out like a sore thumb about slavery is there is a scripture
                                that says you can't serve both god & money its either one or the others.The true beleivers are the one's serving god only.
                                So without realising we are all slaves to one thing or another.
                                So we are all waiting in"vain"" if the macedonian people will lift their mindset slavery out & change that mindset to a positive one.I've got to see that yet.
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

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