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Old 05-25-2020, 03:48 PM   #461
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ture=emb_title

Albanian historians - many Albanians are of Bosniak origin (the video contains subtitles in Serbo-Croatian / Croato-Serbian only)

A rich collection of Albanian authors on the settlement and migration of refugee muhadjirs of predominantly Muslim population of various origins (Bosniak, Turkish, Albanian, Circassian, etc.) from Hungary, Bosnia, southern Serbia and Montenegro and their settlement in Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia and territories that are were still under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.

Phase one or immediate effect of these population transfers/resettlements was that many regions were Islamicized. As a result of the resettlements the Muslim population in Kosovo reached 90%; ethnic Muslim Circassians were settled in Kosovo Polje district as one interesting example.

Phase two of this process was subsequent Albanization, in language and culture.



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Old 07-06-2020, 12:00 AM   #462
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Albanians have been know to use the term 'shqa' in a pejorative manner against people in the Balkans who speak 'Slavic' languages, particularly their neighbours. They may have borrowed it from Aromanian (Vlach) 'shcljau' or Romanian 'șchiau', ultimately from Latin 'sclavus'. Albanians in Greece use a similar word, 'shkljira', to refer to Greeks. It's been suggested that this term developed a general meaning of 'foreigner', but I am not aware of Albanians using it to refer to Roma, Vlachs and Turks, who also lived near or among them. Albanians apparently started moving into Attica and Morea from the 13th and 14th centuries. I haven't looked into this much further, just wanted to explore the possibility if, when they arrived, some of their new neighbours were initially speaking 'Slavic' languages, hence the reason why they continued to use the term.
It is possible this happened in Epirus. Apparently, at some point in the middle ages, there were still 'Slavic' speakers there.
It happened much further south than Epirus. The sources from the Arvanites wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites
Quote:
Pipa, Arshi (1989). The politics of language in socialist Albania. East European Monographs. p. 178. "North Albanian call Slavs shqé (sg. shqį <shkjį <shklį, from sclavus), whereas to Greco-Albanians shklerisht means ‘in the Greek language.’ Hamp observes that "obviously the meaning is traditionally ‘the neighbouring foreigner,’ as with Welsh, Vlah, etc.""

Tsitsipis. Language change and language death. 1981. pp. 100-101. "The term /evjeni̇́stika/ meaning "polite", used by the young speaker to refer to Greek, is offered as synonymous to /shkljiri̇́shtika/ one of the various morphological shapes of the Arvanitika word /shkljeri̇́shtė/ which refers to "the Greek language". Thus, Greek is equated with the more refined, soft, and polite talk. The concept of politeness is occasionally extended from the language to its speakers who are the representatives of the urban culture. In conversations in Kiriaki, I heard the word /shklji̇́ra/ (fem.) referring to a city women who exhibits polite and fancy behavior according to the local view. As I stated in the introduction to this dissertation, most of the occurrences of the term /shkljeri̇́shtė/ are not socially marked, and simply refer to the Greek language. But a few are so marked and these are the ones that reflect the speakers’ attitudes. The term /shkljeri̇́shtė/ is ambiguous. This ambiguity offers a valuable clue to the gradual shift in attitudes. It points to the more prestigious Greek language and culture, and also has a derogatory sense. In my data only the first meaning of the socially marked senses of the word occurs."; pp. 101-102. "The second meaning is offered by Kazazis in his description of the Arvanitika community of Sofikó, in the Peloponnese (1976:48): . . . two older people from Sofiko told me independently that, to the not-so-remote past, it was those who spoke Greek with their fellow-Arvanites who were ridiculed. Even today, if an older inhabitant of Sofiko were to speak predominantly in Greek with his fellow villagers of the same age, he would be called i shkljerishtśarė, literally "Hellenized" but used here as a derogatory term denoting affectation. One of those two informants, a woman, said that, until about 1950, it was a shame for a girl in Sofiko to speak Greek with her peers, for that was considered as "putting on airs." In Spata, /shkljeri̇́shtė/ is used only to refer to "the Greek language" although speakers are aware of the other meanings of the word."
As I mentioned in the earlier post above, Albanians weren't known to refer to Roma, Vlachs or Turks in a similar way, so I find it hard to accept that the term was used in a generic manner for "neighbouring foreigner" as suggested by Hamp, at least not originally. The word 'shqa' was/is used by Albanians in reference to people who spoke/speak Slavic languages, often as a derogatory slur. The word 'shklji̇́ra' is clearly related to the former (perhaps even more archaic as it still retains the 'l'). Albanians had already been in contact with people who spoke Greek prior to their migration southwards, so why would they suddenly use that word to refer to them when they arrived in the Peloponnese and elsewhere? Given the existence of Slavic-speaking peoples in Morea (and the amount of Slavic place-names) at the time of the Albanian migration, there is another possibility that could be entertained, namely, that Albanians encountered such people when they arrived and the term remained (and eventually expanded) despite the eventual language shift from Slavic to Greek by the earlier inhabitants.
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Old 07-18-2020, 08:18 AM   #463
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It happened much further south than Epirus. The sources from the Arvanites wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

As I mentioned in the earlier post above, Albanians weren't known to refer to Roma, Vlachs or Turks in a similar way, so I find it hard to accept that the term was used in a generic manner for "neighbouring foreigner" as suggested by Hamp, at least not originally. The word 'shqa' was/is used by Albanians in reference to people who spoke/speak Slavic languages, often as a derogatory slur. The word 'shklji̇́ra' is clearly related to the former (perhaps even more archaic as it still retains the 'l'). Albanians had already been in contact with people who spoke Greek prior to their migration southwards, so why would they suddenly use that word to refer to them when they arrived in the Peloponnese and elsewhere? Given the existence of Slavic-speaking peoples in Morea (and the amount of Slavic place-names) at the time of the Albanian migration, there is another possibility that could be entertained, namely, that Albanians encountered such people when they arrived and the term remained (and eventually expanded) despite the eventual language shift from Slavic to Greek by the earlier inhabitants.
Thanks SoM, that's interesting. So, basically the "archaic" Albanian term for Greeks is "Slavs". It seems unexpected and it deserves more research.

This made me think about something else though, namely about the theories of Illyrian descent of modern Albanians and how this ties in to the find above.

The ancient Illyrians lived side by side with the Hellenes for many centuries and presumably only came into contact with the Slavs around 6th century AD, when the Slavs arrived to the Balkans. For the next few centuries the Albanians, the "descendants" of the Illyrians, lived close to the Slavs and as well as the Greeks. It would seem pretty odd that the "Illyrians" started referring to the older population using a 'common Slavonic' term, and in effect, confounded the two population groups that clearly speak different languages. Hamp stating that "obviously the meaning is traditionally the neighbouring foreigner" does not seem satisfactory because the Albanians lived alongside Vlachs and others for example, and don't refer to any by this term as you pointed out.

I would find it even more strange and surprising if this "term" somehow developed only in recent centuries.

This would seem to indicate a couple of things to me, not that I am an expert in these matters:

1) The Albanians were in close contact with the Slavs longer, and only came into contact with the "Greeks" at a later historical stage (likely post 6th/7th c. AD).
2) Initially, the Albanians were NOT in contact and did not live in close proximity to the Greeks. This would seem to support the theories which state that the ancestors of modern Albanians arrived to "modern Albania" from somewhere in Moesia and/or Dacia (or possibly elsewhere).


Having said all of that, I wanted to share the following which I found noteworthy and I'm not sure if it's been discussed before. Quote:

"The highest levels of IBD (“identical by descent”) sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one."

URL:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.1001555
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Old 07-18-2020, 10:46 AM   #464
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Thanks SoM, that's interesting. So, basically the "archaic" Albanian term for Greeks is "Slavs". It seems unexpected and it deserves more research.
Carlin, just to be clear, I was suggesting that the archaic Albanian term for Slavic-speaking peoples used in Albania continued to be used by the Albanians who migrated south into Greece, because they encountered Slavic-speaking peoples there too. The Slavic-speaking peoples in Greece eventually lost their language at some point and adopted the Greek language, but the Albanians in that area continued to use the earlier term to refer to those same peoples as a legacy. Although Albanian is attested in written form after the aforementioned migrations, I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that the Albanians already had a specific term for Greek-speakers (different to what they called Slavic-speakers) and therefore would have used that term when encountering such people in Greece, unless of course the term 'shkljira' came to refer to other non-Albanian peoples after a certain period of time post-settlement. In any case, the likelihood I was trying to highlight is that the ancestors of the people in Greece today who are referred to as 'shkljira' by the Albanians/Arvanites may have spoken Slavic languages centuries earlier.
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The ancient Illyrians lived side by side with the Hellenes for many centuries and presumably only came into contact with the Slavs around 6th century AD, when the Slavs arrived to the Balkans. For the next few centuries the Albanians, the "descendants" of the Illyrians, lived close to the Slavs and as well as the Greeks.
You and I had a discussion a while back on another thread regarding the origin of the Slavic languages, I believe I owe you a response there (I will endeavour to address those questions shortly), so, to keep the discussion on topic here, I will not outline my perspective on the above. Suffice to say we may have differing opinions which we can delve further into on the other thread.
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1) The Albanians were in close contact with the Slavs longer, and only came into contact with the "Greeks" at a later historical stage (likely post 6th/7th c. AD). 2) Initially, the Albanians were NOT in contact and did not live in close proximity to the Greeks. This would seem to support the theories which state that the ancestors of modern Albanians arrived to "modern Albania" from somewhere in Moesia and/or Dacia (or possibly elsewhere).
I think we can find some common agreement there. Whilst there may very well be an Illyrian element in the Albanian language, the suggestion by a number of Albanian and western linguists that it is directly descended from Illyrian is unsubstantiated, instead, it rests primarily on the supposition that if Albanian doesn't belong to any other language family then it must have been native to Illyria. The direct descent of Albanian from Thracian is even more dubious and unworthy of discussion. Personally, I think Albanian was formed from a fusion of different languages and underwent even further development as it finally reached the territory of modern Albania. The initial fusion may have taken place somewhere in or around Dacia, because there is a substratum of words shared only between Albanian and Romanian. Further, Latin loans in Albanian appear to have entered the language from different sources and periods of time, but a number of them exhibit the same sound changes as Romanian. The question on what the predecessor of Albanian sounded like prior to contact with Latin/Romance and other languages and its earliest location remains somewhat elusive because of the obscure group of people who spoke it centuries ago. In any case, worthy of further discussion and a topic which should be of particular interest to yourself given part of your ancestral background. However, I should point out, there are some scholars (including Hamp, it would seem) that have suggested that Romanian is a form of Latinized Albanian - which I find lacks credibility.
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Old 07-26-2020, 01:51 PM   #465
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Mr. Reginald Wyon wrote in the Blackwoods Magazine in April, 1903:
"As to the people themselves, spoken collectively as Albanians or sometimes as Arnauts, the idea gained thereby of a united nation is quite erroneous. They must first be divided into three, according to the three religions, namely, Mohammedands, Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians. These three religious factions constitute three entirely different peoples, each animated by fanatical hatred of the other; and they can be subdivided into clans and factions ad lib. As each clan can be reckoned as a miniature autocratic kingdom, ready at any moment to go to war with its next door neighbor, the anarchy existing all over Albania can be faintly imagined."

And Mr. Caillard wrote in The Fortnightly Review, of April, 1885:
"In spite of their close blood-relationship, they are bitterly hostile towards one another. The Ghuegs look down upon and despise the Tosks, who, in their turn, view the Ghuegs with jealousy and dislike. It is acknowledged unreservedly by both that they cannot live together. They are continually quarreling, and often civil wars result."

Dr. E. J. Dillon wrote in the Contemporary of April, 1903:
"Each tribe hates the other with religious rancour, although the line of cleavage does not always run parallel with religious tenets."

And again, Mr. Wyon wrote in the Blackwoods in April, 1913, "Roman Catholic Albania:"
"The numerous clans live absolutely independent of each other, some in blood-feud, where they shoot each other at sight whenever they meet. Sometimes the slaughter is great: at others, they are content with half a dozen killed on each side."

Who, then, created the Albanian kingdom? We take from the Literary Digest of May 6, 1915, the following quotation translated for the Digest from the publication L'Italie published in Rome. Peter Kakaviqui, secretary of the marshalship at the court of Wied wrote:
"Albania being, in fact, the creation of the Triple Alliance, it is on the lot of the Austro-Hungarian and German armies that its future political existence depends. Not only the head of the State, but every Albanian citizen, without distinction of religion, should feel compelled to fight on their side, in recognition of the liberators of Albania."

Mr. Wyon wrote in April, 1913, in the Blackwoods Magazine:
"It is to be remembered that a ceaseless agitation is in progress, chiefly on the part of Austria (through the priests) and of Italy (by means of the schools) to gain influence."

And again, in the same publication Mr. Wyon wrote:
"The time will come when at least two of the Great Powers will have to seriously consider the Albanian problem, who are both vitally interested in its solution."

In the Literary Digest of February 21, 1914, we read:
"Austria-Hungary and Italy may regard the new kingdom as a chess-board for playing their game of rivalry in the Adriatic."

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Old 07-31-2020, 04:45 PM   #466
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URL:
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0...881754065C.pdf

THE SETTLEMENT OF THE MARDAITES AND THEIR MILITARY-ADMINISTRATIVE POSITION IN THE THEMATA OF THE WEST: A CHRONOLOGY
MILOŠ CVETKOVIĆ

Mardaite soldiers were a significant factor in Byzantine-Arab relations in the border areas in the east of the Empire during the 7th century. Centuries later - in the late ninth and first half of the tenth century - they represented an important part of the Roman naval forces in Asia Minor and the Balkans; sources mention them as sailors in the theme of Kivireot and in the western themes of the Peloponnese, Nicopolis and Kefalonia.

Their relocation from the eastern border is a consequence of the treaty of Emperor Justinian II with the Arabs; historians, however, did not provide an answer to the question of when colonization was carried out in the three mentioned topics in the west. It is unlikely that the Mardaites moved to the west at the end of the 7th century - when an agreement was made between Caliph Abimelech and Emperor Justinian II - because Constantinople did not have firm rule in the Peloponnese and Epirus at that time. It is hard to believe, then, that at that time, in parallel with the colonization of Mardait into the Kivireot theme, some of them were moved to the Balkans. The rule of Byzantium in the Peloponnese was established a whole century after the conclusion of the mentioned agreement, more precisely after Stavraki's campaign in 783. Therefore, the time of the settlement of the Mardait garrison in the southern Balkans should be sought in the interval between 783 and 877/878. year, when the Peloponnesian Mardaites first appear. Consequently, it can be concluded that the Mardait colonists came to the Balkans, not from Syria and Lebanon, but from Ataleia in the Kivireot theme, where they lived from the end of the 7th century, forming part of a special military-administrative unit headed by Katepan. Although there are no original data that explicitly speak about the colonization of Mardaites in the Peloponnese, some sources, such as the Monemvasia Chronicle, provide information on colonization measures that could be indirectly linked to the Mardaite migration.

The author of the mentioned chronicle talks about the immigration of, among others, Thracians, Armenians and certain Kafirs to the area of ​​the Peloponnesian theme in the time of Emperor Nichifor I. Peter Charanis believes that the mysterious Kafirs were, in fact, inhabitants of the Kivireot theme, assuming that writing about these events, he had before him information about the settlers, whereby those from the subject of Kivireot in the template are listed in abbreviated form as Kiviri (Κιβυρρ / Κοιβαιρ), which the chronicler mistranslated as Kafiri. Bearing in mind that in the quoted section of the Monemvasia Chronicle, the infidels are listed on a par with the Thracians, who were inhabitants of the Thracian theme, as well as the Armenians, probably members of the Armenian theme, Haranis's interpretation seems to be correct. In that case, it is about the topic of Kivireot. Among the Kivireots who were relocated at that time, there could certainly have been Atalean Mardaites. Therefore, it can be assumed that it was Emperor Nichifor I who was responsible for the relocation of the Mardaites of Asia Minor to the Balkans. Their settlement could have aimed at strengthening Byzantine rule and overpowering the Slavic ethnic element, at a time when a new theme was being formed in the Peloponnese. The mentioned emperor, by the way, undertook extensive colonizing measures throughout the Empire. On the other hand, the settlement in the remaining two topics in the west - Nikopol and Kefalonia - was carried out somewhat later than in the Peloponnese, since the first mention of Nikopol and Kefalonian Mardaites is related to events in the first half of the 10th century. Their relocation was realized as part of the strengthening of the Byzantine positions in the Ionian Sea after the battles with the Arabs in that area around 880. The Mardaite migration in Epirus probably took place in parallel with the formation of the Nikopol theme, in order to strengthen its recruiting potential. Western-themed Mardaites functioned in units under the leadership of the Turmarch. In each of the three mentioned themes in the Balkans, there was one Mardaite prison, similar to the model of Persian ethnic prisons that were distributed in themes throughout the Empire during the 9th century. Similar to their military-administrative structure, other ethnic prisons stationed in various Roman themes functioned, such as the prisons of the Goths, Bulgarians or Evidits.

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Old 08-04-2020, 05:42 PM   #467
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viii.11.2. Albanians

The lack of close linguistic relationship of Albanian with Illyrian, the lack of Proto-Albanian toponymy in Illyria, and the absence of indigenous sea-faring terminology in the reconstructed language (borrowing corresponding words from Romance or Greek) make it likely that Albanians were unrelated to the ancient Illyrians. It has been proposed that they came from further north, with the settling of Proto-Albanians believed to be in Dacia Ripensis and farther north, in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains and the Beskidy/Bieszczady (possibly a toponym of Albanian origin), with the migration to Illyria via the eastern slopes of the Balkans taking place before (but not much earlier than) their contact with Romance speakers and the end of the Proto-Albanian period (Orel 1998).

The diversity of haplogroups among modern Albanians reflect their complex ethnogenesis (Peričić et al. 2005; Battaglia et al. 2008): An origin of the Albanoid homeland close to the north-west Pontic region during the Iron Age, before their expansion and subsequent Y-DNA bottlenecks, is supported by the prevalent E1b1b1a1b1-L618 lineages (ca. 24–44%)—mainly V13+ (formed ca. 6100 BC, TMRCA ca. 2800 BC)—a haplogroup found previously in Neolithic Hungary and among Scythians of the north-west Pontic area, with a likely origin in early European farmers; and by hg. R1b1a1b2-M269 (ca. 18–20%), mainly R1b1a1b1b3a1a1c-Y10789 with Z2705+ (formed ca. 700 BC, TMRCA ca. AD 550), a subclade of R1b1a1b1b-Z2103. Their close contact with other Palaeo-Balkan groups, probably through mixture with local peoples of the Balkan and Adriatic regions after their migration from the Carpathians, possibly as early as the 7th century BC (Witczak 2016), is to be inferred from the presence (ca. 15–17%) of J2b2a1-L283 lineages (formed ca. 7700 BC, TMRCA ca. 3400 BC), proper of Balkan populations; but also possibly from hg. R1b1a1b2-PF7562 (ca. 5%)[31], an early offshoot of R1b1a1b2-M269, associated directly or indirectly to the Yamna expansion to the west (see §vi.1. Disintegrating Indo-Europeans).

https://indo-european.info/indo-euro..._Thracians_and


A lot of speculation in the second paragraph, especially around the following (i.e. 'probably', 'possibly'):

"Their close contact with other Palaeo-Balkan groups, probably through mixture with local peoples of the Balkan and Adriatic regions after their migration from the Carpathians, possibly as early as the 7th century BC (Witczak 2016)"


PS: Beskidy/Bieszczady toponym

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Beskidy
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bjeshk%C3%AB#Albanian

"Hypothesized to be derived from Latin *pastica, from pastus,[1] but unlikely because of unsolved phonetic difficulties. More likely from *bjershkė, a derivative of bie (“to fall”) (see pjeshkė < *pjershkė < Latin persica). The term could be the source or related to the oronym Beskidy mountains.[2] Orel also claims it to be from Proto-Albanian *beškā, contradicting his derivation from Latin pastus.[3]"

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Old 09-09-2020, 11:10 PM   #468
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Fascinating - Albanians of Montenegrin origin






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Old 09-09-2020, 11:43 PM   #469
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Interesting indeed.
And the last image is quite significant in my opinion. At footnote 19, the desire to keep the daughters as Christians is a clear message about keeping the true identity alive. Becoming Muslim was purely business for the men, but the real identity was preserved in the women. Fascinating.
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Old 10-13-2020, 02:14 PM   #470
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From the 10th century - Suidae Lexicon testifies:

Αλβανοι: ονομα εθνους Γαλατων. τουτων φασι την γην ευδαιμονα και καρπους ενενκειν ουσαν αγαθην, οινον ἡδυν και πολυν εχουσαν.

Albanians: the name of Gallic people. They say that the land of this people is rich and good for agriculture, as well as that it brings sweet wine in large quantities.

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=23F...%CE%BD&f=false

Wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda

PS - The existence of Celtic words, isoglosses, in the Albanian language was first stated by the scholar Vincenc Dorsa, who relied on Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646-1716), who literally said: "That the Illyrians (= Slavs) and Celts borrowed their linguistic elements to the (modern) Albanian language..."

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albanian, albanian myths, albanian origins, arab, arnabud, arnaud, arnaut, arnavud, celebi, evliya, kurvelesh, ottoman, quraysh, turkish


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