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Old 12-23-2008, 11:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
Never. It happened only one part of it, the northern and eastern part. They still say "volk" or "vulk" in most of Serbia. However the newer pronunciation entered the literary language, but it was debated which form should be accepted. This newer form exists only in Serbo-Croatian. All other Slavic languages have retained the older form. Western Slavic languages retained the oldest Slavic form without the vowel: "vlk", "jablko", "vlna", etc. The oldest IE form reamains in Sanskrit "vrk".
Sory Slovak,but where in Serbia do they use Volk??I have been in Serbia many times and only i know it is Vuk,also Montenegrians use the name Vukašin,it is used often,and how about Serbo-Croat surnames Vukosavljević,Vuković,Vukić,Vukelić.....and how about Vuk Obradovič,negative hero from Kosovo battle. The only nations that use VOLK are Macedonians and Slovenians, В'К or ВЪКis used by eastern Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Last edited by Sarafot; 12-23-2008 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 12-23-2008, 05:06 PM   #32
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In eastern and central Serbia, with variations.

And I'm not talking to you anymore. I don't like you.
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Old 12-23-2008, 05:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
In eastern and central Serbia, with variations.

And I'm not talking to you anymore. I don't like you.
Fine you dont need to.I have a lot relatives in south Serbia,i have cousin in Vrnjačka Banja,i have uncle in Bosilegrad,nither of them say volk,first say vuk,second v'k my best friends are Serbs to,sory,i also have a coworker from Kosovo,he is from Štrbci vilage near Kačačnik,he also say vuk,and others Serbs that i know to.And you know what,isto tako vrlo dobro pričam Srpski,i neverujem da bi itko u Srbiji koristio reč VOLK.

Dont be mad but that is truth.

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Old 12-23-2008, 05:46 PM   #34
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This is isn't about the subject. Why do people always assume that I don't know. I just don't like you and that's it. I don't care about your knowledge or opinion on anything regardless if it is true or not, so that be the end of that.
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Old 12-23-2008, 05:51 PM   #35
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And Jabolko is used in Slovenian language to,Serbs always tray to be something special so they use Jabuka and Vuk.

And Tomas i like you,even if you dont like me!
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Old 12-23-2008, 06:58 PM   #36
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Both of you guys have made some good points. Slovak, when is the variant of 'Vuk' first attested? 19th century or earlier?
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Old 12-23-2008, 07:23 PM   #37
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I can't tell. Until the early 19th century the folk language was not written in Serbia and the old literary Slavianoserbian used the older form "volk". I don't know about Croatian literature. Illyrian has many dialects, the bulk of them called Shtokavian (štokavski) that are separated into Old Shtokavian and Neo-Shtokavian. I do know that most Old Shtokavian use the syllabic /l/ as in "vlk", and have many other older features, that's why they are called Old. These include: slavonski, kosovsko-resavski, timočko-prizrenski (torlački), istočnobosanski, zetsko-sandžački, posavski (slavonski). The Neo-Shtokavian are: šumadijsko-vojvođanski, istočnohercegovački, ikavski zapadni i ikavski istarski. There are also the Chakvian (čakavski) and Kaykavian (kajkavski) dialects spoken in most of Croatia but these are transitional with Slovenian.
The Neo-Shtokavian dialects were used to form the Serbo-Croatian literary standard since they were more universal than the Old Shtokavian dialects. Hence why most people would say "vuk" insead of "vlk" or "volk", but that is not the case in most of rural Illyria where people use primarily their native dialects the cityfolk would have hard time understanding them anyway.
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:49 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
I can't tell. Until the early 19th century the folk language was not written in Serbia and the old literary Slavianoserbian used the older form "volk". I don't know about Croatian literature. Illyrian has many dialects, the bulk of them called Shtokavian (štokavski) that are separated into Old Shtokavian and Neo-Shtokavian. I do know that most Old Shtokavian use the syllabic /l/ as in "vlk", and have many other older features, that's why they are called Old. These include: slavonski, kosovsko-resavski, timočko-prizrenski (torlački), istočnobosanski, zetsko-sandžački, posavski (slavonski). The Neo-Shtokavian are: šumadijsko-vojvođanski, istočnohercegovački, ikavski zapadni i ikavski istarski. There are also the Chakvian (čakavski) and Kaykavian (kajkavski) dialects spoken in most of Croatia but these are transitional with Slovenian.
The Neo-Shtokavian dialects were used to form the Serbo-Croatian literary standard since they were more universal than the Old Shtokavian dialects. Hence why most people would say "vuk" insead of "vlk" or "volk", but that is not the case in most of rural Illyria where people use primarily their native dialects the cityfolk would have hard time understanding them anyway.
Thanks Slovak, that is some decent information, I think based on that it would be highly unlikely that 'Vukasin' would have been used during that period, Volkasin would have had to have been the older way of saying it.

The sources on Marko are scarce, I believe there may be some Latin sources and documents that speak briefly about him or his father. I will keep my eyes open.
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Old 12-24-2008, 04:14 AM   #39
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Here is another source about King Marko, this time from the year 1601 by Mauro Orbini, the Croatian writer. I used google translate to convert the original and fixed the wording up a little, if there is anyone who can read Croatian or Serbian and would like to have a go at translating them better, let us know.

Quote:
At that time, some leaders of Rashka, using the death of Tsar Stefan, tried to become higher than they were. Among them was the Despot Volkasin and his brother Uglesha, who were leaders of the 'Hum' region, and Prince Voislav, son of Voinov, each being in possession of the most important lands in the kingdom. Therefore, some faithful people of Urosh advised the Tsar to lock Despot Volkasin in prison along with Prince Voislav and some others...............
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............he (Urosh) gave Volkasin many provinces, and gave him the title of King. From here Volkasin began to oppress many traits of the kingdom, causing damage as if it were under the direction of the Emperor, and increasing the grip on his empire..........
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Therefore, there was a great uproar in the kingdom of Urosh, as each of the leaders tried to seize land larger than what belongs to them. Among these was Prince Lazar, who lead all the lands on the borders of Hungary that is called, as it is said, the Country of King Stefan.................
Quote:
King Volkasin determined that Pristina (Kosovo) was a significant city and retained a hold on all the surrounding country. His brother Uglesha held all the territory in Romania (East Rome) to Salonika, Ber (Macedonia) and other cities. The Balshich held upper and lower Zeta (Montenegro) to Albania, from the borders of Bosnia and Srem to Kotor. Lazar, however, with his brother in-law Vuk Branković held the land of King Stefan................................
Quote:
............King Volkasin and his brother Uglesha. They were born in Livno, their father was Mrnjave, who was in the beginning a poor nobleman but was later, with his sons, helped by Tsar Stefan. When the Tsar Stefan................he took him, along with his wife, three sons and two daughters in his house. The sons of the Volkasin, Uglesha and Gojko. The brothers Volkasin and Uglesha were more stronger and disciplined arms than the other lords, especially Uglesha, who led the war with the city of Solun and pushed them to pay tribute............He was then in the continuous war against the Turks who were on the edge of his domains, and each time the did battle he came out the winner. The Turks had thus lost all the strength and audacity which they had previously displayed in the war. The personal success of Volkasin and Uglesha was resented by Prince Lazar and Nikola Zhupan Altomanovich, the strongest of the leaders after them. They therefore determined to humiliate them and supress their pride. It is with that aim that they approached Tsar Urosh, encouraging him in any way possible against the aforementioned brothers. And at the end of it he decided to enter in the alliance with them against the said brothers, while they promised that all which is taken will belong to Tsar Urosh, to whoever attempts to again win his father's kingdom. They therefore prepared a powerful army to attack King Volkasin and Uglesha, with the army lined up to meet the enemy at Kosovo Polje. When the battle swung out of favour, Prince Lazar withdraw his armies and fled. Nikola Altomanovich, who wanted to fight, was defeated, his people killed, few barely managing to survive. Tsar Urosh was caught alive with several of the other leaders at his house, while others were killed...................When Tsar Urosh was defeated and caught in battle, King Volkasin led him in Rashka, where he finished his days in the way described.................
Quote:
.............when they could not do anything, they fled for the safety of their lives. The Turks pushed them (Volkasin and Uglesha) to the Maritsa, who jumped in with their horses lest they fall in enemy hands. They did the same as many other prominent figures, from which a number of them drowned in the river mentioned. There drowned also Uglesha, Gojko and his brother, who was in army. When King Volkasin had crossed the river, he was overcome with a great thirst and began to drink from a source, still mounted to his horse. While he was tilted, the page Nikola Hrsojevic killed him with the use of a necklace that was on his (Volkasin) neck. It happened close to the village near the town of Karaman Chernomena in Thrace, where the thoroughbred lost the battle with the Turks. From there, later his body would be transferred to the church of St Demetrios in Shushich, which is in Rashka. The bodies of Uglesha and Gojko were never found. Others that escaped death in the battle were taken into captivity. This happened on the 26th September 1371.......................
Quote:
After the death of King Volkasin his son Marko retained a hold on Kostur, Ohrid, Arg(?) and Morea..................
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Old 12-24-2008, 04:25 AM   #40
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The above texts by Orbini suggest that there was indeed friction between the rulers of the Macedonian south and the Serbian north, which was romantically referred to as the land of (King) Stefan. A battle is also recorded as taking place at Kosovo between the two enemies. The brothers Volkasin and Uglesha are also spoken of as brave fighters against the Turks, although not much is mentioned about King Marko.
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