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Old 10-10-2008, 05:13 PM   #21
Delodephius
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I think he was implying that after the City States were established that slow colonization began northwards.
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This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.
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Old 10-10-2008, 05:17 PM   #22
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My bad
If thats the case , I misunderstood.
My apologies.
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
From what Ive read and heard, the opposite is true.
Do you have a source, so I can read it as well?
The timeframe below is from a bit earlier, but this is the most common explanation of Greek migration I get when searching the net or reading histories-
I have posted this on the Macedonia/Cretan topic as well.



References

"Dorian" Britannica Online.
This is an example of speculation.

Aeolic, Dorian, Ionic origins of the Macedonians - the New Greeks go from one theory to another, and none of their ideas are based on sound scientific principles.

It's all speculation. The idea that the Greeks came 'from the North' is heavily disputed.
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelister View Post
This is an example of speculation.

Aeolic, Dorian, Ionic origins of the Macedonians - the New Greeks go from one theory to another, and none of their ideas are based on sound scientific principles.

It's all speculation. The idea that the Greeks came 'from the North' is heavily disputed.
First off Id like to say I am not connecting the Macedonians to the Greeks here. Some may have started from the same tribe in 1100 B.C, but in my opinion, 3000 years later, theyre DEFINITELY not the same people. Thats too many years apart for two cultures to be considered the same. I just want to put that out there before I continue. We are talking about very ancient history here which I dont believe has much relevance in the current Macedonian-Greek relations/dispute.

Honestly, in all the major encyclopedias,University papers and historic literature that Ive read backs the general idea of the above map(the above map is obviously a very simplified general picture of these events), which I would assume have the most reliable research backing, and sources.Now having said that, yes, there is some vagueness in there chronology of events, but they are minor. It is widely accepted among historians that these migrations took place.
But, again, you were referring to a later time period, which i missed in your original post, concerning this matter. So we could be debating apples and origins. If this is the case I apologise.
About the Greeks coming from the north, remember there were 3 tribes.Only the Dorians came from the north, not all.
As for this being heavily disputed as you stated above, can you post a source please, so I may read it as well.
I dont mean this as a challenge in any way, I honestly just want to read it, as I have never come across anything disputing the origins of the Dorians. Pelloponesian history is of great interest to me, and I have read alot about it, if im missing something I would really like to know.
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher View Post
Вардарец,

Are you half Greek/ half Macedonian? I don't get your name and your signature of converting Orthodox Hellens to the Hellenic religion of old and zeus worship?


What's your position on the Macedonia/Greek conflict?
My position is :

Da gi eba site gartsi vo gazo. Ako i ti si grk, i tebe da te eba.

My signature is about the group of Greece which numbers around 100k people. They have abandoned orthodoxy and are preaching/practising the Olympus Gods religion. With my signature, i call upon all Greeks, which call themselves Hellenes, to join them, because the term Greek had religious (ORTHODOX) meaning before 1-2 centuries.

My nickname Вардарец (latin : Vardarets ) :
Means a guy from Vardar Macedonia, as none of my parents are Greeks. My heritage is from places in Vardar Macedonia.

What about you?
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Вардарец View Post
My position is :

Da gi eba site gartsi vo gazo. Ako i ti si grk, i tebe da te eba.:D

My signature is about the group of Greece which numbers around 100k people. They have abandoned orthodoxy and are preaching/practising the Olympus Gods religion. With my signature, i call upon all Greeks, which call themselves Hellenes, to join them, because the term Greek had religious (ORTHODOX) meaning before 1-2 centuries.

My nickname Вардарец (latin : Vardarets ) :
Means a guy from Vardar Macedonia, as none of my parents are Greeks. My heritage is from places in Vardar Macedonia.

What about you?

I'll do it to you the Greek way, son

Last edited by Traveller; 10-11-2008 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:51 AM   #27
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Spartan,

Anyone, and I mean anyone, erudite or not, who argues that the Greeks orginated in the north or that they migrated from the north is erroneous.

This assumption is not based on science but on European myths of race. Europeans want us to believe that the ancient Hellenes were a product of northern Europe; the fact is, however, the ancient Hellenes, like the Macedonians, were one of the first European people and they both migrated to the balkans from the south, namely, modern day south west asia or near Alexandria, Egypt.

My source for this is better than any biased historian; rather, it comes from science. DNA lineage and migration patters indicate that the Greeks and Macedonians arrived to the Balkans from south west asia.
This is fact and can not be gainsaid.
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:55 AM   #28
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"Ako i ti si grk, i tebe da te eba" Oh my, what might this mean?


I am not a Greek. The confusion lies in the fact that your name is Macedonian and yet you used a Hellenic signature. I assumed you were mixed. I stand disabused.
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Old 10-12-2008, 09:06 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher View Post
Spartan,

Anyone, and I mean anyone, erudite or not, who argues that the Greeks orginated in the north or that they migrated from the north is erroneous.

This assumption is not based on science but on European myths of race. Europeans want us to believe that the ancient Hellenes were a product of northern Europe; the fact is, however, the ancient Hellenes, like the Macedonians, were one of the first European people and they both migrated to the balkans from the south, namely, modern day south west asia or near Alexandria, Egypt.

My source for this is better than any biased historian; rather, it comes from science. DNA lineage and migration patters indicate that the Greeks and Macedonians arrived to the Balkans from south west asia.
This is fact and can not be gainsaid.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one then
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:42 PM   #30
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Spartan, my dear friend:

I respect your opinions and look forward to your posts. We have different views on this subject and that is okay.

I understand your argument; an older friend of mine, a Cypriot Greek, told me the same thing; and I have read the same information as you.

My problem with the theory of a migration from the north is that it is not (for me) logical. I mean, if we start with the assumption that life began or evolved in the south, whether africa or south west asia, or thereabouts, and start with the premise that the earliest recorded civilizations began in south west asia, i.e. mesopotamia, etc, it seems perfectly good sense to argue that Greeks arrived to the Balkans from south west asia and the city states created civilization.

For the Greeks to have originated in the north is not possible; to argue this would mean that either (a) certain humans originated in the north independent of the south; or (b) migrated from south west asia, bypassed the balkans, went to the north, and then decided to migrate back to the balkans.

Why not argue that they migrated to the balkans and the islands and stayed thither? And from there they built civilization and culture?
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