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Old 02-15-2011, 10:45 AM   #21
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Facts and logical communication often draws out the truth besides I was never allowed to paint in case I got it on the carpet so I’m not really into painting.
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:15 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
They had every chance to promote their own language, why didnt they ?
To find meaning in events we need to put them in context to what else was going on around them and then see if it makes sense.

You would no doubt be aware of the speed in which Alexander moved his army over the middle east and Asia but also remember he wasn’t going on a tourist trek but fighting wars every inch of the way so

1. we have lack of time to stop a smell the roses

2. Greek was the most common language used at that time so why bother with teaching millions of newly conquered people all of different nationalities with different native tongs a new language when the already know Greek.

3. To teach a language requires setting up schools which is not only an expense…too good for you mongrels ie the conquered people

4. Sometimes languages are not learned by schools ie the poor but through use and application and Greek was already in common use. To spread any new language by word of mouth would first need a purpose…if the whole world knew English why would I bother learning any other language…and proximity…if no one around me speaks this other language where am I going to hear it to learn it.

From every respect in the climate of the time using Greek made more sense than any other language.

Think about if the whole world spoke English fluently for a couple of centuries and also each knew their native tong and somehow china did some world war and now are rulers of the world do you think Chinese would be used any time soon.

And lets not forget
5. The home advantage…if everybody knows Greek we can tell each other secrets or make battle calls without the enemy knowing your move before you have done it.

So if one is practical economical and logical it made no sense to introduce any new language.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian View Post



Have not finished reading this book, just got it recently. Will post more from it in due time.
Philip Freeman is a classic scholar who apparently lacks even basic linguistic knowledge which one who writes books on the ancient Macedonian language should have.Otherwise he is just lying.Let me explain:He claims ancient Macedonians couldn't pronounce properly the "Greek sounds" because they said "ΒΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ","ΞΑΝΔΟΣ" and "ΓΑΙΤΕΑΣ" instead of "proper Greek" ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ,ΞΑΝΘΟΣ and ΧΑΙΤΕΑΣ,i.e the known Macedonian habbit to turn in some words voiceless aspirate consonants of standard Greek Φ,Θ and Χ to voiced stops Β,Δ and Γ.Had Mr. Freeman bothered himself with studying the Macedonian words that are recorded by ancient lexicographers like Hesychius,Amerias e.t.c,he would have known that these consonants were not unknown to Macedonian phonology and they could indeed pronounce them.Few examples that expose Mr. Freemans ignorance,i.e. Macedonian words containing the consonants Φ,Θ and Χ,which Macedonians "could not pronounce because they were Greek" according to Mr. Freeman:

1)The Macedonian word ἀρφύς (synonymous with Attic ἱμάς,i.e. "cestus")
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...&redirect=true
2)The Macedonian word Ἠμαθίη,the first name of Macedonia.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...&redirect=true
3)The Macedonian word θούριδες,synonymous with Attic νύμφαι and Μοῦσαι,i.e. "brides","Muse".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...&redirect=true
4)The Macedonian word χάρων,synonymous with Attic λέων,i.e. "lion"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...#Other_Sources
And because i know you will question the reliability of a wikipedia article,here is this word in Hesychius lexicon (right column,15th word) :
http://books.google.com/books?id=Gp1fAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1035
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:22 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by George S. View Post
vultron for yout information in the book the ptofessor wrote that the ordinary macedonian never spoke greek only macedonian.The only people that spoke greek was the royal house.But the royal house spoke their mother tounge as well which was macedonian.So they spoke greek because of commercial reasons.SO your greek government's claim that all macedonians spoke greek is Totally FALSE.
If this professor really wrote that,then he nead to read the following passage of Arrian's Indica:

"Some of them advanced some distance inland, breaking away from the main force, some in pursuit of this, and some of that. There a man appeared to them, wearing a Greek cloak, and dressed otherwise in the Greek fashion, and speaking Greek also. Those who first sighted him said that they burst into tears, so strange did it seem after all these miseries to see a Greek, and to hear Greek spoken. They asked whence he came, who he was; and he said that he had become separated from Alexander's camp, and that the camp, and Alexander himself, were not very far distant. Shouting aloud and clapping their hands they brought this man to Nearchus; and he told Nearchus everything, and that the camp and the King himself were distant five days' journey from the coast".
http://books.google.com/books?id=XTzTaSZBY-AC&pg=PA25
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron
My approach is to look at the facts on the ground, and use common sense.
Lol, thanks, I needed a good laugh in the morning.
Quote:
The Macedonians back then were regarded somewhat of a village hillybilly.
Unsubstantiated garbage. No writer from antiquity ever wrote that.

Quote:
There is nothing to suggest, even today of a seperate language.
There is plenty, try using that common sense you claim to posses.
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They had every chance to promote their own language, why didnt they ? For commercial purposes ?
Why didn't the Thracians or Illyrians? Why did they use Greek instead? Why didn't the Mongols use their own language but instead used Persian in India? Why do the Irish and Scottish still use English when they have their own Celtic tongues that are still alive today? I will tell you why, because it made practical sense to use languages with an already established literature at the time, and could reach larger commercial and religious audiences as a lingua franca. Use that common sense you claim to have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai
Had Mr. Freeman bothered himself with studying the Macedonian words that are recorded by ancient lexicographers like Hesychius,Amerias e.t.c,he would have known that these consonants were not unknown to Macedonian phonology and they could indeed pronounce them.
I wouldn't say that sort of phonology was unknown to Macedonians, it just wasn't common for them, meaning most of those words are foreign loans. The fact that these linguistic particulars exist in Macedonian which differentiates it from Greek really bothers you, doesn't it? I've seen you do all sorts of dances trying to downplay their significance, and to no avail.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:41 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by OziMak View Post
To find meaning in events we need to put them in context to what else was going on around them and then see if it makes sense.

You would no doubt be aware of the speed in which Alexander moved his army over the middle east and Asia but also remember he wasn’t going on a tourist trek but fighting wars every inch of the way so

1. we have lack of time to stop a smell the roses

2. Greek was the most common language used at that time so why bother with teaching millions of newly conquered people all of different nationalities with different native tongs a new language when the already know Greek.

3. To teach a language requires setting up schools which is not only an expense…too good for you mongrels ie the conquered people

4. Sometimes languages are not learned by schools ie the poor but through use and application and Greek was already in common use. To spread any new language by word of mouth would first need a purpose…if the whole world knew English why would I bother learning any other language…and proximity…if no one around me speaks this other language where am I going to hear it to learn it.

From every respect in the climate of the time using Greek made more sense than any other language.
Greek was definitely not the lingua france in the Middle East and especially in the territory of the Persian empire before Alexander.Instead Aramaic was the lingua franca in that area.Greek became the lingua franca only after Alexander conquered those areas.

"In the following centuries,as the cuneiform-writing Assyrians extended their empire westwards,they adopted the whole package of Aramaic language and script to ease official communication between the new provinces of the Assyrian Empire.It soon became the one common language of the Middle East, and its use became even more widespread during the Persian period.As Aramaic gained wider currency as the language and script of government, it was increasingly written by people for whom it was not their first language, many of whom doubtless had prodigious volumes of official writing to produce….
Although this Imperial Aramaic script developed some regional variations,for as long as the Persian Empire was the unifying power it retained a broad similarity throughout the
Persian-ruled territories.But a century or two after the Persian collapse in the fourth century BC at the hands of Alexander the Great,local differences began to proliferate. In the new Hellenistic kingdoms of the Seleucids and Ptolemies,Greek was now the official language of government:but the existing peoples or tribes within these territories were by now too habituated to Aramaic to change to a new and unknown language".
http://books.google.com/books?id=FcA...cover&pg=PA151

“From the sixth to the fourth centuries B.C. Israel was a satrapy within the vast Persian empire. At its height this empire extended from India in the cast to the Aegean in the west and from the Black Sea in the north to Egypt in the south.The Aramaic language, the lingua franca of the Persian empire, became the language of the Jewish people, including Jesus himself. His words spoken from the cross—"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (Mk 15:34)—are Aramaic”.
http://books.google.com/books?id=NlFYY_iVt9cC&pg=PA47

And this:
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8293/aramaic.gif
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai
Greek was definitely not the lingua france in the Middle East and especially in the territory of the Persian empire before Alexander.Instead Aramaic was the lingua franca in that area.Greek became the lingua franca only after Alexander conquered those areas.
Can you name all of the Hellenic colonies in and around Asia prior to the 4th century BC?
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:44 PM   #28
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Seeing as you've conveniently disappeared again, let me do it for you, using your very own favourite wikipedia to ease your mind, lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Colonies
Quote:
During the Archaic period, the population of Greece grew beyond the capacity of its limited arable land (according to one estimate, the population of ancient Greece increased by a factor larger than ten during the period from 800 BC to 400 BC, increasing from a population of 800,000 to a total estimated population of 10 to 13 million).[15]

From about 750 BC the Greeks began 250 years of expansion, settling colonies in all directions. To the east, the Aegean coast of Asia Minor was colonized first, followed by Cyprus and the coasts of Thrace, the Sea of Marmara and south coast of the Black Sea.

Eventually Greek colonization reached as far northeast as present day Ukraine and Russia (Taganrog). To the west the coasts of Illyria, Sicily and Southern Italy were settled, followed by Southern France, Corsica, and even northeastern Spain. Greek colonies were also founded in Egypt and Libya.

Modern Syracuse, Naples, Marseille and Istanbul had their beginnings as the Greek colonies Syracusae (Συρακούσαι), Neapolis (Νεάπολις), Massalia (Μασσαλία) and Byzantion (Βυζάντιον). These colonies played an important role in the spread of Greek influence throughout Europe, and also aided in the establishment of long-distance trading networks between the Greek city-states, boosting the economy of ancient Greece.


As can be clearly seen, there were a number of Hellenic colonies already in existence, so trade, commerce, cultural and religious interaction in the Greek language was not unfamiliar in Asia. The Macedonian campaign merely gave pencil-pushers an avenue to disseminate the Greek language. It was a by-product, and not a specific intention.

And it all begins from the south of Greece, which means that, a Greek origin for Macedonians, or Macedonians being the 'pure' and 'primitive' Greeks that ran out of petrol and finally decided to enter the world of their apparent 'brethren' centuries later - is a load of garbage.
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:02 PM   #29
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Agamoi that soldier you mentioned falling behind & getting lost & being found that he spoke greek well yes he was greek why because all the greeks alexander had he put them behind
of his entourage remember alexanders army was a macedonian one.Also the peole who found this person were surprised that he spoke greek,why because macedonians in alexanders army spoke macedonian only.So you keep your charade of saying that because someone speaks greek they must be greek.You know agamoi if you beleive it long enough pigs can fly.Ako mislish za dolgo vreme prasinata ke pustat krilca i ke letat.

Last edited by George S.; 02-15-2011 at 08:04 PM. Reason: ed
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:11 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
If this professor really wrote that,then he nead to read the following passage of Arrian's Indica:

"Some of them advanced some distance inland, breaking away from the main force, some in pursuit of this, and some of that. There a man appeared to them, wearing a Greek cloak, and dressed otherwise in the Greek fashion, and speaking Greek also. Those who first sighted him said that they burst into tears, so strange did it seem after all these miseries to see a Greek, and to hear Greek spoken. They asked whence he came, who he was; and he said that he had become separated from Alexander's camp, and that the camp, and Alexander himself, were not very far distant. Shouting aloud and clapping their hands they brought this man to Nearchus; and he told Nearchus everything, and that the camp and the King himself were distant five days' journey from the coast".
http://books.google.com/books?id=XTzTaSZBY-AC&pg=PA25
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