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Old 02-11-2013, 06:45 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Epirot
All jokes aside, please. Greece has coined the term 'Arvanites' to conceal as much as possible its Albanian being.
Greece didn't coin the term, it is simply the Greek version of your own original ethnonym, which is 'Arbanit'. The name you call your language, people and country today was coined, long after 'Arbanit' people were first recorded.
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Likewise Greece refer to the language of Aromanians as Vlachika (not as Aromanika) in order to belittle its links with Romanian.
Macedonia refers to them as Vlachs and it certainly isn't meant to belittle them.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:47 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Greece didn't coin the term, it is simply the Greek version of your own original ethnonym, which is 'Arbanit'.
I think you misunderstood my point. I am well aware that Arvanites (Arbanites) is way older than Alvanoi (Albanoi). But the intention of the Greek state by using officially such term is to detach as much as possible Arvanites from the Albanians. Behind that "innocent" use of "r" instead of "l" is the weird attempt to show Arvanites and Albanians as different people. All of linguists have settled beyond any doubt that "Arvanitika" is merely a branch of Tosk dialect who retained certain archaic forms (which does not exist in Albanian anymore). So it would be more correct to describe their language as Alvanika rather than Arvanitika.

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John Bintliff, The Ethnoarchaeology of a "Passive " Ethnicity, p. 139

While compiling my maps of village systems across the post-medieval centuries from the Ottoman sources (archives so remarkably discovered andtabulated for us by Machiel Kiel; see Kiel 1997; Bintliff 1995, 1997), I was careful to indicate in the English captions which of them were Albanian-speaking and which Greek-speaking villages. A strong supporter of the project,the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus, watched over my shoulder as the maps took shape. "Very interesting," he said, looking at the symbols for ethnicity, "but what you have written here is quite wrong. You see the people in Greece who speak a language like Albanian are Arvanites, not Alvanoi, and they speak Arvanitika not Alvanika." In this seemingly innocuous, and of course technically correct, comment lies a much deeper layer of ideology, signified by the mere substitution of an "r" or an "1." The bishop was voicing the accepted modern position among those Greeks who are well aware of the persistence of indigenous Albanian-speakers in the provinces of their country: the "Albanians" are not like us at all, they are ex-Communists from outside the modern Greek state who come here for work from their backward country; as for the Arvanites (traditional inhabitants of the Greek countryside speaking Albanian)—well, they are a kind of ethnic Greek population from somewhere on the northwest borders of Greece, where the line between the Greek state and that of Albania has always been fuzzy and permeable to intermarriage.Thus the difference between an "l" and an "r" neatly allows the modern Greeks to divorce themselves and their history from that of the unpopular but widely employed, modern Gastarbeiter of post-Communist Albania. Shortly after this conversation, I saw the bishop pass across the courtyard of our project base—a converted monastery run as a research center—to talk to the genuine Albanian guest workers who were restoring its stonework. I knew he was himself an Arvanitis, and listened with interest as he chatted fluently to them—and it wasn't in Greek! I was tempted, but wisely forbore, to ask him which language they were conversing in—Arvanitika or Alvanika? In a volume focusing on historic identities and boundary formation, it is a matter of considerable interest to understand a minority's view of itself in relation to the larger national whole into which it has been merged.
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Macedonia refers to them as Vlachs and it certainly isn't meant to belittle them
The case in Greece is quite different. Greece attempted to Hellenize them in order to increase the number of Greek-speakings in the conquered Macedonia. Greek circles tried to alienate the Aromanian-speakings either by trying to show them as a Greek community which was influenced by the Aromanian or as a community which had no relation to the Aromanian groups of Albania, Macedonia, etc. The Greek scholar, Achilleas Lazarou stated that Aromanians are Romanized hellenes (?). Contrary to him was Koukoudis who went as far as to claim that Aromanian might be traced to 'Romiosini'. His intention was to show Aromanians as being "a Greek ethnocultural or ethnolinguistic particularity".
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:32 PM   #273
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Epirot so what do you guys really want in greece recognition of minority rights???You know greece will never do that as there are only greeks in greece according to greece.So what do you guys want to happen in epirot??
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:54 PM   #274
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Epirot so what do you guys really want in greece recognition of minority rights???You know greece will never do that as there are only greeks in greece according to greece.So what do you guys want to happen in epirot??
Greece will recognize the existence of minorities despite his unwillingness to do that. Mind that the geopolitical context is dramatically changing. If the experience is to be trusted, then Mahatma Gandhi's words really deserve to be cited:

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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
If both Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Turkey pressure constantly Greece, I am almost sure that Greece would be compelled to recognize the rights of certain minorities within its territory. The current asymmetry cannot last anymore: Albania recognize the existence of Greek minority (albeit their number is greatly inflated) by giving numerous rights, whereas Greece is wholly shuddered if Cham issue is being mentioned.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:39 PM   #275
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Whats a "civilised greek"? Some kourada who drinks Turkish coffee, listens to Albanian, Turkish and Arabic music, and stammers in his verbose language all day long oscillating between diarrhea and constipation. Pure grecian formula.

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Old 03-06-2013, 04:14 AM   #276
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Whats a "civilised greek"? Some kourada who drinks Turkish coffee, listens to Albanian, Turkish and Arabic music, and stammers in his verbose language all day long oscillating between diarrhea and constipation. Pure grecian formula.
This is the most accurate definition about the Greek substance I've heard so far. I you don't mind I'll put that definition on my signature?
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:03 AM   #277
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This is the most accurate definition about the Greek substance I've heard so far. I you don't mind I'll put that definition on my signature?
Sure why not. Thats what happens when a formerly elite culture is massified and polluted by 2000 years of incoherent history. Mind you I spent alot of time studying Hellenic pagan reconstructionism(as a conosseuir of a dead culture not that Middle Eastern barnyard) I can see very fine details. I am pretty much a strict follower of Fallmerayer on these questions. Actually I distinctly remember my college professors making fun of the greek students in ancient history class on occassion, all in good fun, and also pointing out that Macedonia was not part of Greece. Well that got a shock out of them. But yes in my long studies I figured out what greek was: pure malakia.

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Old 03-06-2013, 06:01 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by momce View Post
Sure why not. Thats what happens when a formerly elite culture is massified and polluted by 2000 years of incoherent history. Mind you I spent alot of time studying Hellenic pagan reconstructionism(as a conosseuir of a dead culture not that Middle Eastern barnyard) I can see very fine details. I am pretty much a strict follower of Fallmerayer on these questions. Actually I distinctly remember my college professors making fun of the greek students in ancient history class on occassion, all in good fun, and also pointing out that Macedonia was not part of Greece. Well that got a shock out of them. But yes in my long studies I figured out what greek was: pure malakia.
The modern Greeks have been lied to and brainwashed by their government, church and school system. What would you expect, shock is what you will get.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:13 AM   #279
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Yes it was quite a shock when the prof would point out Macedonia was not part of Greece to them. Well this is not Greece they teach facts.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:27 AM   #280
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As far as Macedonians is concerned the greeks don't really recognize the macedonians.But perhaps if they start recognizing others maybe we might have a chance but here's hoping.
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