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Old 06-20-2013, 07:26 AM   #21
Vangelovski
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Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
How so?, I can’t say I necessarily agree with you on that one.

I’m also assuming that you’re NOT alluding to some kind of correlation between the predicament our people find themselves in with what is perceived to be a decline in their Christian faith, that our situation is somehow directly or indirectly attributable to Macedonians supposedly turning their back on God?, of course if I'm wrong in this regard please feel free to clarify.
How many Macedonians do you know that actually believe God exists and have put their faith in Jesus? I would say that there are very very few. In fact, I personally only know of a handful.

Anything less than that is turning your back on God. Going to church to light a candle on Christmas and spreading village superstitions is not worship of God - its worship of something else, but not God.

I'm neither suggesting that Macedonia's situation is or isn't a result of Macedonians turning their backs on God. It could be that God has brought divine wrath or it could be Macedonian incompetence - I don't really know. But there are very clear signs of moral degeneration which have led to many of the problems they now experience, and which certainly could be a result of their unbelief and relativistic world view. But I do know that genuinely turning to God will solve many problems - that's why I have it in my signature block.
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The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:29 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
If Macedonians are going to get Macedonia out of its current predicament, it will take more than religion. A healthy level of nationalism is essential.
I think it will take a lot more than simple nationalism, which in itself could be considered a 'religion', to solve Macedonia's problems. A healthy dose of nationalism would certainly help, but I think its going to involve much more than that.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:46 AM   #23
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Perhaps neither nationalism nor religion are enough on their own, but the former would do more toward solving Macedonia's main problems such as the IA and FA.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:53 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Perhaps neither nationalism nor religion are enough on their own, but the former would do more toward solving Macedonia's main problems such as the IA and FA.
I think a complete regeneration of the mind and soul is in order. The more I look at Macedonians in Macedonia today, the more upside down and inside out they appear to me. Their thoughts and feelings are becoming more and more alien to me. What we acknowledge as an unquestionable right, they see as something to be traded for illusory gain, like a donkey at the market.
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The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski
I think a complete regeneration of the mind and soul is in order.
I agree.
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What we acknowledge as an unquestionable right, they see as something to be traded for illusory gain, like a donkey at the market.
A hundred years ago, Macedonians were more religious, but they were still plagued by similar problems. What they needed was more nationalism. Just like today.
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Anything less than that is turning your back on God.
I don't share your strict interpretation on religion. I don't feel I have turned my back on God because of this.
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:50 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
I agree.

A hundred years ago, Macedonians were more religious, but they were still plagued by similar problems. What they needed was more nationalism. Just like today.

I don't share your strict interpretation on religion. I don't feel I have turned my back on God because of this.
Macedonians may have been more religious, but being religious isn't really the point. God doesn't want us to perform rituals with our fingers pointed in a certain direction at a certain moment. He wants us to put our faith in Jesus.

Nationalism or patriotism certainly has its place. I think most people here would be shocked, because of ignorance, that God has commanded people to be loyal to their country and defend it. The myth is that Christians supposedly are meant to shun nationalism and patriotism, that they're meant to be some sort of internationalists or something. This is a nonsense spread by people who have never bothered to actually read the Bible, let alone study it.

I'm not sure what "interpretation" you're referring to. The Bible is quite clear about Jesus and what God wants from us. There really is no room for interpretation. A straight reading will suffice. But rather than have me preach to you, you can just read the Bible for yourself and see if your heart lines up with that. If it does, great, if not, then I would dare say that you may have turned your back on Him. While you may think of yourself as a Christian, the real test is whether you fit the bill according to the Bible. The Bible is the final authority on God and being faithful to him, not me or anyone else.

Here's some relevant passages:

John 14:6
Jesus told him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Romans 3:22 - 26
We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

Romans 3:30 - 31
There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

1 Peter 1:9
The reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls.

Romans 10:9 - 11
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 5:1 - 2
Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:28 PM   #27
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If we say the problem is religion then will god provide for a way out for macedonia.In other words will god save macedonia???Then yes macedonia has lost her way & needs to be put on the right track.By turning to god there may be a way out.
Then nationalism is the other problem the lack of nationalism is too apparent.Why is macedonia allways caving in to their enemies so easily.Has a country become too feeble to fend for itself.Definitely national feelings must be further developed.We are completely different from the albanians of macedonia who all too nationalistic.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:31 PM   #28
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A few points I'd like to make.

Nationalism and patriotism are both needed in our predicament. Religion, god, faith what ever you wish to call it, I think is not needed, in fact it may even be a deterrent. People who put way to much stock in faith tend to be overly optimistic instead of practical. In ancient times, it was always the generals who had no fear of god or faith in him who were the most successful on the battle field. Maybe faith is useful at cleaning up social ills that are certainly becoming more and more of a problem in Macedonia, drugs, murder, infidelity, but will more faith in god help us defeat our enemies? I think not.

I do have to agree with Vangelovski that Macedonians are not very big believers in god. Almost all of our grandparents were believers in god, but only out of fear, not because of faith. They were completely ignorant of the bible and any of its teaching, most could not even tell you one verse from it. Today is no better. Most people have never read a page of the bible,hence all our pagan tendencies when it comes to customs. I have never seen another group like us, our customs are mind boggling it at times, I personally can not stand it, all the bullshit that has been invented and added to for generations upon generations. Somehow all the crap has been mixed together and in our eyes has become the path to god.

Macedonians are good followers, they never have any idea what they are following, the follow millions of customs, and will swear to them but they have no idea why they do them or if they have anything to do with Christianity.

We need intellectuals, we need a generation of practical thinkers, problem solvers, not religious windbags, we have had those before and they are useless.

I believe in god, I am not religious. I don't think god cares about what I eat and when, are how many kifli are eggs I need to bring to church, or how many times I have to spin in a circle and hop on one leg while scratching my ass.

Religion makes people stupid, faith makes people strong and gives them a purpose. We have enough stupid people, we need strong people.
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:52 AM   #29
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The problem could be stemming from people not having any faith in god or very little.Look at the parable of themustard seed.IF you have faith then you can move a mountain.Also salavation comes through faith.You have to accept the word of god,bleive the word of god
& act on it,have faith & you will be saved.So no man can come to god only through jesus.Jesus said i'm the truth that no one can be born of god unless they are drawn by god the father.
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Old 06-22-2013, 10:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
How many Macedonians do you know that actually believe God exists and have put their faith in Jesus? I would say that there are very very few. In fact, I personally only know of a handful.
Judging on face value alone, I would have to agree, but if we are to delve deeper than that, then I believe such a point of view may be premature.

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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
Anything less than that is turning your back on God.
Possibly, but ultimately only one is qualified to make the final judgement, and it is not us.

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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
Going to church to light a candle on Christmas and spreading village superstitions is not worship of God - its worship of something else, but not God.
I share the same sentiments, however we must accept that in this regard, we are only a product of our own knowledge, understanding and interpretation of God.

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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
I'm neither suggesting that Macedonia's situation is or isn't a result of Macedonians turning their backs on God. It could be that God has brought divine wrath or it could be Macedonian incompetence - I don't really know. But there are very clear signs of moral degeneration which have led to many of the problems they now experience, and which certainly could be a result of their unbelief and relativistic world view..
How is this any different to any other nation on Earth?, my personal opinion is that the biggest mistake all individuals make or can make is to think that God has (or continues to have) any kind of influence on the events that take place on Earth, nevertheless I know many people obtain comfort in their views (whether negative or positive) towards life and God in believing the opposite. I am in no position to judge, however whilst you may be willing to accept the possibility that a factor attributable to Macedonia’s woes could stem from Macedonians turning their backs on their Christian faith or values, to be honest, I'm more inclined to think the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
But I do know that genuinely turning to God will solve many problems - that's why I have it in my signature block.
I am of the opinion that the path to an individual’s inner salvation can indeed be through God, the path to Macedonia’s salvation however, should not be viewed in the same light.
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Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 06-22-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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