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Old 12-18-2010, 08:29 PM   #81
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How about Bulgarian?

The Macedonian language is quite resilient to remain so similar after such a long period, do you agree?

Do you also agree with the suggestion that post-definitive article in Macedonian evolved in the following manner: to dete -> deteto, to tatko -> tatkoto, etc? When did the post-definitive article develop in Macedonian?
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:41 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
How about Bulgarian?

The Macedonian language is quite resilient to remain so similar after such a long period, do you agree?
True Bulgarian (i.e. not OCS and not Bulgarian influenced OCS — the recension) and can be observed from around the 16th century. This is when analytic features became true grammatical categories in Macedonian and Bulgarian (loss of noun declension and infinitive verb forms, definite article, etc.).

The Macedonian dialects could be called resilient, but then so are the Bulgarian dialects. Basic morphology, basic phonology and basic vocabulary have changed little over this period.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon
Do you also agree with the suggestion that post-definitive article in Macedonian evolved in the following manner: to dete -> deteto, to tatko -> tatkoto, etc? When did the post-definitive article develop in Macedonian?
The Macedonian definite article developed from demonstrative pronouns which became postfixed as a result of influence from other Balkan languages (Balkansprachbund).

Definiteness began to develop in the late OCS period and by the 13th century a fully fledged postfixed article, though only used sporadically, can be observed (Koneski cites злыотъ рабъ and деноть from the Dobrejšovo evangelie examples). In line with the voicing of strong-positioned yers, from рабътъ we get *работ (modern Macedonian робот, 'the slave').

So it's actually the other way around: рабъ тъ > рабътъ > *работ; дѣвы тѣ > *дѣвытѣ > *девите.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:05 PM   #83
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True Bulgarian (i.e. not OCS and not Bulgarian influenced OCS — the recension) and can be observed from around the 16th century.
Is there an example you can refer us to?
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The Macedonian definite article developed from demonstrative pronouns which became postfixed as a result of influence from other Balkan languages (Balkansprachbund).
How did the influence of other languages instigate this change?
Quote:
Definiteness began to develop in the late OCS period and by the 13th century a fully fledged postfixed article, though only used sporadically, can be observed (Koneski cites злыотъ рабъ and деноть from the Dobrejšovo evangelie examples). In line with the voicing of strong-positioned yers, from рабътъ we get *работ (modern Macedonian робот, 'the slave').

So it's actually the other way around: рабъ тъ > рабътъ > *работ; дѣвы тѣ > *дѣвытѣ > *девите.
Interesting, thanks for the explanation. Do you agree with the below assertion made by an individual that used to post here some time ago:
Quote:
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...icle#post16813

I read that the definite article started to appear in around 12th century, but at that time it was still the demonstrative pronoun that was used in postposition instead of preposition like in other languages. In Slovak for example, the pronoun still exists today as ten, tį, to, or in Serbian as taj, ta, to. They are of coursed changed (declined) by cases. The pronoun was first too declined in Macedonian and Bulgarian after it entered postposition. So for example место то which is in the Nominative case could be места того in the Genitive case or месту тому in the Dative case. At some point cases were dropped and the pronoun became the article. In almost all Indo-European languages today that use a definite article the article almost always evolved from the demonstrative pronoun.
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:43 AM   #84
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The 'Formula e pagėzimit' is the oldest document containing Albanian (in this case, Gheg).

The original text (with original spelling): Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit

In modern Gheg: Un te pagezont per emenit t'Atit, e t'Birit, e t'Shpirtit Shenjt
The example in other languages I was looking for was to come from external authors documenting the unique features of languages in Macedonia or nearby. The above document is interesting but not really an attempt to describe the day to day language of the time.

Your text above is:
I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost

Using "Google translate" for Albanian, I get the following text for the text above:

Unė tė pagėzoj nė emėr tė Atit dhe tė Birit e tė Frymės sė Shenjtė

Is the translation wrong?
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:30 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great
Unė tė pagėzoj nė emėr tė Atit dhe tė Birit e tė Frymės sė Shenjtė

Is the translation wrong?
The translation, as far as I can tell, is OK (don't know about sė Shenjtė).

But bear in mind that Standard Albanian is codified Tosk (źmėn vs. emėr).
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:52 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Is there an example you can refer us to?
I'll try and find something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon
How did the influence of other languages instigate this change?
It was either a specifically Balkan innovation which came about almost simultaneously in these languages (Macedonian, Bulgarian, Aromanian, Romanian and some southernmost Serbian dialects), or it could have even began within one or more of these languages and then spread to the others. Историја на македонскиот јазик by Koneski has quite a bit of data in regard to the Balkan postposed article; I'll give you a quote as soon as I find it in my mess.

EDIT: I now see Граматика на македонскиот јазики also has fair bit of historical data. I'll provide quotes when I get back home tonight.

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Do you agree with the below assertion made by an individual that used to post here some time ago:
Yes, though I don't know if the same is true for "all Indo-European languages" as s/he states.

Last edited by Дени; 12-19-2010 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 03-12-2011, 01:32 AM   #87
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Deni, when you come across this thread again, can you post the information you referred to above?
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:24 AM   #88
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I think that the Bulgarian and Macedonian literary traditions are quite separate, although in the latter half of the 19th century non-Macedonian representations of our Macedonian langauge as 'Bulgarian' (particularly by Missionaries, but others also) gave the emerging Bulgarian state (hostile to our interests) the kind of intellectual arsenal it needed to 'claim' not only Macedonian territory, but its people and its language. I really don't know enough about the development and adoption of a State langauge in Bulgaria, but I can hypothesise that if missionaries were recording the Macedonian langauge in books and misrepresenting it as 'Bulgarian', and that that langauge became the official language of the Bulgarian State, you can see how a foriegn State (the Bulgarian) is able to appropriate a foriegn language (the Macedonian). If the basis of its national langauge comes from Macedonian territory, then you have a situation where by the langauge of about 5 per cent of Bulgarian territory today (Pirin Macedonia) represents the entire State, even though the traditional language of the other 95% of Bulgarian territory, would have been largely unintelligible to the Macedonians. The huge number of Macedonian immigrants, and the fact that the capital was placed so close to Macedonian territory, probably influenced its choice of national language. Which ever way you look it, the Bulgarians are thieves.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:58 AM   #89
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BUMP
What a wonderful thread.
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Old 07-23-2016, 07:12 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Indeed.

I notice this thread has been avoided completely by Macedonia's neighbouring people, one wonders why. Perhaps they're more interested in social or other labels for the people, rather than the actual content in the text.

I can be a dreamer, and ask, all politics aside, can any of our neighbours provide such a relevant comparison in terms of language preservation from 500 years ago? But who am I asking, none appear willing to meet the simple request about the history of their own languages, yet all of them are seemingly 'expert' historians on Macedonia. Go figure.
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Originally Posted by Daskalot View Post
No takers on Risto's and SoM's requests? Strange.
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Let me take a stab at it.
The Greeks have been horrified by this article. They are shocked to their core at the direct attack on their identity. It is difficult for them to talk of a Greece of 180 years ago and here we are with a language documented half a millennium ago that has direct if not exact relationships with modern Macedonian. It is a knife through their collective hearts and the fact that the language is in a place that many would prefer to call a Greek or Albanian stronghold in historical times .... (even though the etymology of the village name is nothing but Macedonian) ... just hurts them that little bit more.

They have no answer Daskalot. They never will because to answer this will force them to look at themselves first. They will not like what they see. They may even develop a sensation of guilt over time .... they much prefer to hate us instead.
I don’t see why you think I’m horrified. That doesn't seem like a difficult request. Actually, the document of post#1 DOES have the Greek phrase from that time (1600s) AND today. The difference is that in the case of Greece there are many thousands documents from 17th Century alone, documents of various sizes, content, style and significance.

Generally speaking, NO language changes significantly in 400 or 500 years. At least that's my experience from Greek and English theatrical plays from the 1500s and 1600s. Kornaros, Chortatzis, Shakespeare and Marlowe are still performed unchanged and the modern audiences can follow.


===

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