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Old 12-24-2011, 10:25 AM   #11
Soldier of Macedon
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1130100 въ тъждe днь ішьдъ ис із дому седеашe при мори .
1130200 і събъраше се къ нeму народи мнози . і еко вълезъ въ корабь
1130210 седe . і всь народъ на поморий стоешe .
1130300 і гла імъ много . притъчами гле . сe ізидe сеѥй . да
1130310 сеeтъ .
1130400 сеяштюму . ова убо падоше при пaти . і придоше птице
1130410 нбскиѥ . і позобаше е .
1130500 другае жe падоше на камeнийхъ . еко нe імеше зeмле многи .
1130510 і абиe прозебоше . занe нe імеашe глaбини зeмле .
1130600 слъньцю въсиевъшю присведa . занe нe імехa корeние і
1130610 исъхоше .
1130700 а другае падоше въ тръний . і вьзидe тръниe і подави e .
1130800 другаа жe падоше на зeмли добре . і даахa плоди . ово съто .
1130810 ово шeсть дeсетъ . ово . і .
1130900 імеѥи уши слишати да слишитъ .
1131000 і пристaпьшe учeници eго реше eму . по чьто притъчами
1131010 глeши імъ .
1131100 онъ жe отъвештавъ рeчe . еко вамъ дано eстъ разумети . таінаа
1131110 црствие нeбскааго . онемъ жe нe дано eстъ .
1131200 імaштюму бо дастъ се . і избaдeтъ eму . а іжe нe іматъ .
1131210 і eжe іматъ вьзьмeтъ се отъ нeго .
1131300 сeго ради притъчами імъ гля . еко видештe нe видетъ . і
1131310 слишештe нe слишетъ . ни разумеятъ .
1131400 і събиваeтъ се імъ . пророчьство ісаісайино гляштee .
1131410 слухъмь услишитe . і нe іматe разумети . зьрештe узьритe .
1131420 і нe іматe видети .
1131500 утлъсте бо срдьцe . людий сихъ . і ушима тежько услишаше .
1131510 і очи свой съмежишe . eгда къгда узьритъ очима . і ушима
1131520 услишетъ . і сръдьцeмь разумеятъ . і обратетъ се і
1131530 ицеля ѥ .
1131600 ваши жe блажeне очи . еко видитe . і уши ваши еко слишитe .
1131700 аминь гля вамъ . еко мнози пророци і правeдьници . въждeлеше
1131710 видети . ежe видитe . і нe видеше . і слишати . ежe
1131720 слишитe . і нe слишаше .
1131800 ви жe услишитe притъчa севъшаeго .
1131900 всекъ іжe слишитъ словeса цре . і нe разумеваeтъ . приходитъ
1131910 нeприезнь . і въсхиштаeтъ сеаноe въ сръдьци eго .
1131920 сe eстъ сеаноe при пaти .
1132000 а сеаноe на камeний . сe eстъ слишей слово .
1132010 і абиe съ радостия приeмле e .
1132100 нe іматъ жe корeнe вь сeбе . нъ времeнъно eстъ . бивъши жe
1132110 пeчали і гонeнию . словeсe ради . абьe съблажнеeтъ се .
1132200 а саноe въ тръний . сь eстъ . слишей слово . і пeчаль
1132210 света сeго . і льсть богатьствие подавлеeтъ e . слово і
1132220 бeсплода биваeтъ .
1132300 а сеаноe на добре зeми . сь eстъ слишеі слово . і разумеваѥ
1132310 e . і приноситъ плоди еко подобаeтъ . і творитъ . ово р .
1132320 ово м . ово і .
1132400 інa притъчa предъложи імъ гле . уподоби се црствиe
1132410 нбскоe . чку севъшюму доброe семе на сeле своeмь .
1132500 съпештeмъ жe чкомъ . придe врагъ eго . і все плевeлъ . посреде
1132510 пьшeнице і отидe .
1132600 eгда жe прозебe трева . і плодъ сътвори . тъгда ави се і
1132610 плевeлъ .
1132700 пришeдъшe раби гну реше . ги нe добро ли семе селъ eси на
1132710 сeле твоeмь . отъкaду убо іматъ плевeлъ .
1132800 онъ жe рeчe імъ врагъ чскъ сe сътвори . раби жe реше
1132810 eму . хоштeши ли убо да шьдъшe ісплевeмъ ѥ .
1132900 онъ жe рeчe ни . eда въстръгаяштe плевeлъ . въстръгнeтe
1132910 купъно съ нимь і пьшeницa .
1133000 оставитe купъно расти обоe до жетви . і въ време жeтве .
1133010 рeкa делатeлeмъ . събeретe пръвеe . плевeлъ . і съвежатe ѥ
1133020 въ снопи еко жeшти ѥ . а пьшeницa събeретe въ житьницa моя .
1133100 інa притъчa предъложи імъ гле . подобьно eстъ црсо
1133110 нбскоe . зръну горюшьну . eжe вьзьмъ чкъ вьсее
1133120 на сeле своeмь .
1133200 eжe мьнe eстъ всехъ семeнъ . eгда жe въздрастeтъ . болe eстъ
1133210 зeлий . і биваeтъ древо . еко прити птицамъ нбскъімъ .
1133220 і витати на ветьхъ eго .
1133300 інa притъчa гла імъ . подобьно eстъ црсо нбскоe . квасу .
1133310 іжe вьзьмъши жeна съкри въ мaце трйи с[а]тъ . доньдeжe
1133320 въскисе вьса .
1133400 вьсе си гла ис . притъчами къ народомъ . і бeс притъче
1133410 ничьтожe глашe къ нимъ .
1133500 да събaдeтъ се рeчeноe пророкомь гляштeмь . отвръзa въ
1133510 притъчахъ уста мое . отъкрия съкръвeнае . отъ съложeние
1133520 вьсeго мира .
1133600 тъгда оставь народи ідe въ домъ ис . і пристaпише къ нeму
1133610 учeници eго гляштe . съкажи намъ притъчa плевeлъ сeлънъіхъ .
1133700 онъ жe отъвештавъ рeчe імъ . въсеавъ доброe семе eстъ
1133710 снъ чкъі .
1133800 а сeло eстъ всь миръ . доброe жe семе eстъ сновe црствие .
1133810 а плевeлъ сaтъ сновe нeприезнини .
1133900 а врагъ eстъ вьсеави плевeлъ диеволъ . а жетва eстъ
1133910 коньчаниe веку . а жетeлe сaтъ аіли .
1134000 еко удобь събираятъ плевeли . еко огнeмь съжизаятъ .
1134010 тако бaдeтъ въ съконьчаниe века сeго .
1134100 посълeтъ снъ чскъі . аіли своѥ . і събeрaтъ отъ црсие
1134110 eго . все съблазни . і творештеѥ бeзакониe .
1134200 і въвръгaтъ ѥ въ пeшть огньноя . ту бaдeтъ плачь і
1134210 скрьжьтъ зaбомъ .
1134300 тъгда правeдьний просвьтетъ се еко слънцe . въ црствий
1134310 оца іхъ . імеѥи уши слишати . да слишитъ .
1134400 паки подобьно eстъ црствиe нeбскоe . съкровиштю съкръвeну
1134410 на сeле eжe обретъ чкъ съкри . і отъ радости eго ідeтъ .
1134420 і всe eлико іматъ продаeтъ . і купуeтъ сeло то .
1134500 паки подобьно eстъ црствиe нeбскоe . чку купьцу .
1134510 іштaштю добра бисъра .
1134600 іжe обретъ eдинъ многоценнь бисьръ . шьдъ прода
1134610 всe імениe і купи e .
1134700 паки подобьно eстъ црствиe бжиe нeводу . въвръжeну въ морe .
1134710 і отъ всекого рода събъравъшю .
1134800 ізe eгда ісплъни се . ізвлъкъшe й на краи . і седъшe
1134810 ізбъраше добриѥ въ съсaди . а зълиѥ ізвръгоше вънъ .
1134900 тако бaдeтъ въ съконьчаниe века . ізидaтъ аіли . і
1134910 отълaчетъ зълиѥ . отъ среди . правeдънъіхъ .
1135000 і въвръгaтъ ѥ вь пeшть огньнa . ту бaдeтъ плачь і
1135010 скрьжьтъ зaбомъ .
1135100 гла імъ ис . разумеeтe ли все си . глаше eму eй ги .
1135200 ис жe рeчe імъ . сeго ради вьсекъ кънижьникъ . научь се
1135210 црствию нeбскуму . подобьнъ eстъ чку домовиту . іжe
1135220 ізноситъ отъ съкровишта своeго новае і вeтъхае .
1135300 і бис eгда съконьча ис притъче сиѥ . преідe отътaде .
1135400 і пришьдъ въ отьчьствиe своe . учашe ѥ на сънъмиштихъ іхъ .
1135410 еко дивлеахa се eму і глахa . отъкaде сeму eстъ
1135420 премaдрость си і сила .
1135500 нe сь ли eстъ тeктоновъ снъ . нe мати ли eго нарицаeтъ се марие .
1135510 і братрие eго іековъ . і осифъ . і симонъ . і юда .
1135600 і сeстри eго . нe вьси ли въ насъ сaтъ . отъкaду убо
1135610 сeму все си сaтъ .
1135700 і блажнеахa се о нeмь . ис жe рeчe імъ . нестъ пророкъ
1135710 бeчьстий . тъкмо въ своeмь отчстви . і въ дому своeмь .
1135720 і нe сътвори ту силъ многъ . за нeверьствиe іхъ .
1140100 въ оно време . слишавъ іродъ тeтраархъ . слухъ хвъ .
1140200 і рeчe отрокомъ своімъ . сe eстъ іоанъ крьститeль . тъ
1140210 въскръсe отъ мрътвъіхъ . і сeго ради сили деятъ се о нeмь .
1140300 іродъ бо імъ іоанна . съвеза і въсади въ тьмьницa .
1140310 іродъади ради . жeни филипа брата своeго .
1140400 глашe бо eму іоанъ . нe достоітъ ти імети ѥ .
1140500 і хоте и убити убое се народа . занe еко пророка імехa і .
1140600 дьни жe бивъшю . рождьства іродова . плеса дъшти іродиедина
1140610 посреде . і угоди іроду .
1140700 темь жe клетвоя іздрeчe eи дати . eгожe аштe въспроситъ .
1140800 она жe наваждeна матeрия своeя . даждь ми рeчe сьдe на
1140810 блюде . главa іоана крститeле .
1140900 і пeчальнъ бис црь клетви ради . і възлeжештийхъ
1140910 съ нимь повeле дати .
1141000 і посълавъ усекнa іона въ тьмьници . і принeсоше главa eго
1141010 на блюде . і даше девици . і нeсe матeри своeи .
1141200 і пристaпьшe учeници eго . вьзеше тело eго і погрeбоше e .
1141210 і пришьдъшe възвестише ісви .
1141300 і слишавъ ис . отидe отътaде въ кораби . въ пусто место
1141310 eдинъ . і слишавъшe народи по нeмь ідоше пеши отъ града .
1141400 і ишьдъ ис . виде народи многи . і милосръдовавъ о нихъ .
1141410 і ицели нeдaжьниѥ іхъ : -
1141500 зач . позде жe бивъшю . пристaпише къ нeму . учeници eго
1141510 гляштe . пусто eстъ место . і година минa южe . отъпусти
1141520 народи . да шьдъшe въ ближьнеѥ градьце . купетъ
1141530 брашьна сeбе .
1141600 ис жe рeчe імъ . нe требуятъ отити . дадитe імъ ви ести .
1141700 они жe глаше eму . нe імамъ сьдe . тъкмо д . хлебъ .
1141710 і б рибе .
1141800 онъ жe рeчe . принeсетe ми ѥ семо .
1141900 і повeлевъ народомъ вьзлeшти на треве .і приймъ д хлебъ .
1141910 і б рибе . възьревъ на нбо блгви . і преломь хлеби .
1141920 дастъ учeникомъ . і учeници жe народомъ .
1142000 і еше вси і наситише се . і вьзеше ізбитъки
1142010 укрухъ б і коша ісплънь .
1142100 едъшийхъ жe беашe мaжь . петь тисешть .
1142110 разве жeнъ і детий .
1142200 і абиe убеди учeники вълести въ корабь . і варити й на ономь
1142210 полу . доньдeжe отъпуститъ народи . кон .
1142300 і отъпушть народи . вьзидe на горa помолитъ се . позде жe
1142310 бивъшю eдинъ бе ту .
1142400 корабь жe бе посреде море вълаѥ се влънами .
1142410 бе бо противьнъ ветръ .
1142500 въ чeтврътaя жe стражa ношти . ідe къ нимъ ис .
1142510 ходе по морю .
1142600 і видевъшe и учeници ходешть по морю . съметоше се
1142610 гляштe . еко призракъ eстъ . і отъ страха възъпише .
1142700 абиe жe рeчe імъ ис гле . дръзаитe азъ eсмь нe боітe се .
1142800 отъвештавъ жe пeтръ рeчe eму . ги аштe ти eси . повeли ми
1142810 прити кь тeбе по водамъ .
1142900 онъ жe рeчe приди . і излезъ іс корабле пeтръ .
1142910 хождаашe на водахъ . і придe ки исви .
1143000 виде жe ветри крепъки убое се . і начьнъ утапати .
1143010 възъпи гле ги спи ме .
1143100 абиe жe ис простьръ рaкa ѥтъ і . і гла eму маловерe .
1143110 по чьто се усaмне .
1143200 і вълезъшeма іма въ корабь . преста ветръ .
1143300 сaштeі жe въ кораби . пришьдъшe поклонише се eму
1143310 гляштe . въ істинa снъ бжи eси .
1143400 і преевъшe придоше на зeмля іeнисарeтьскa .
1143500 і познавъшe и мaжи места того . посълаше въ вьсa странa тa .
1143510 і принeсоше къ нeму все болештеѥ .
1143600 і молеахa и да тъкмо прикоснaтъ се въскрилий ризе eго .
1143610 і eлико се прикоснaше eмь спeни бише .
1150100 тъгда пристaпише къ ісви . іжe беахa въ ілме .
1150110 кънижьници і фарисеи гляштe .
1150200 по чьто учeници твои престaпаятъ . предааниe старьць .
1150210 нe омиваятъ бо рaкъ своіхъ . eгда хлебъ едетъ .
1150300 онъ жe отъвештавъ рeчe імъ . по чьто ви престaпаeтe
1150310 заповедь бжия . за преданиe вашe .
1150400 бъ бо заповеде гле . чьти оца і мрь . і ижe зълословитъ
1150410 оца ли мрь . съмрътия да умьрeтъ .
1150500 ви жe глeтe . іжe колижьдо рeчeтъ оцю ли мри даръ . іжe
1150510 колижьдо отъ мeнe . пользeвалъ се eси .
1150520 іжe нe почьтeтъ оца ли мрe своeѥ .
1150600 і разористe законъ бжйи . за предааниe вашe .
1150700 лицeмери . добре пророчьствова о вас ісаіе гле .
1150800 приближаятъ се людиe сий усти своіми . і устънами чьтaтъ
1150810 ме . а сръдьцe іхъ далeчe отъстоітъ отъ мeнe .
1150900 суe жe чьтaтъ ме . учештe учeние . заповеди чски .
1151000 і призъвавъ жe народи рeчe імъ . слишитe і разумеітe .
1151100 нe въходештee въ уста скврънитъ чка .
1151110 нъ ісходештee із устъ скврънитъ чка .
1151200 тъгда пристaпьшe учeници реше eму . веси ли еко фарисeи .
1151210 слишавъшe слово съблажнише се .
1151300 онъ жe отъвештавъ рeчe . всекъ садъ eгожe насади оць мои
1151310 нeбскъі . іскорeнитъ се .
1151400 останетe іхъ . вожди сaтъ слепи слепьцeмъ . слепъ жe слепьца
1151410 аштe водитъ . оба въ емa въпадeта се .
1151500 отъвештавъ жe пeтръ рeчe eму . съкажи намъ притъчa сия .
1151600 ис жe рeчe eму . eдъначe ли ви бeзд% разума eстe .
1151700 нe у ли разумеваeтe еко всеко eжe въходитъ въ уста . въ чрево
1151710 въмештаeтъ се і афрeдомь ісходитъ .
1151800 а ісходештаа із устъ . отъ сръдца ісходетъ .
1151810 і та скврънетъ чка .
1151900 отъ сръдца бо ісходетъ . помишлeние зълае . убийства
1151910 прелюбодеание . татьби . лъжeсъведение . власвимие .
1152000 си сaтъ скврънештаа чка . а eжe нe умъвeнами рaками
1152010 ести . нe скврънетъ чка .
1152100 і ишьдъ отътaду ис . отидe въ странa турьскa .
1152110 і сидоньскa :
1152200 и сe жeна хананеіска . отъ пределъ . техъ шьдъши . възъпи
1152210 гляшти . помилуі ме ги сну давъ .
1152220 дъшти мое зьле бесънуeтъ се .
1152300 онъ жe нe отьвешта eй словeсe . і пристaпьшe учeници eго
1152310 молеахa и гляштe . отъпусти я еко въпиeтъ въ следъ насъ .
1152400 онъ жe отьвештавъ рeчe . несмь посъланъ тъкмо къ овьцамъ
1152410 погибъшиймъ дому ілeва .
1152500 она жe пришьдъши поклони се eму гляшти . ги помози ми .
1152600 онъ жe отъвештавъ рeчe . нестъ добро отети хлеба чедомъ .
1152610 і поврешти пьсомъ .
1152700 она жe рeчe eй ги . ібо і пси едетъ отъ крупиць .
1152710 падаяштийхъ отъ трeпeзи гий своіхъ .
1152800 тъгда отъвештавъ ис . рeчe eи . о жeно вeлие eстъ вера твое .
1152810 бaди тeбе екожe хоштeши . і ицеле дъшти eѥ въ тъ часъ .
1152900 і пришьдъ отътaде ис . ідe при мори галилеістемь .
1152910 і въшьдъ на горa седe ту .
1153000 і пристaпише къ нeму народи мнози . імaштe съ собоя
1153010 хроми . неми . слепи . бесъни . і ини многи . і привесе ѥ .
1153020 і привръгa ѥ къ ногама исвама . і ицели ѥ .
1153100 еко народу дивити се . видештe немиѥ гляште . бесъниѥ
1153110 съдрави . і хроми ходеште . і слепи видеште .
1153120 і славлехa ба ізлeва . коц
1153200 ис жe призъвавъ учeники своѥ рeчe імъ . милосръдуя о
1153210 народе . еко ужe три дни приседетъ мне . і нe імaтъ чeсо
1153220 ести . і отъпустити іхъ нe хоштa нe едъшь .
1153230 да нe како ослабеятъ на пaти .
1153300 і глаше eму учeници . отъкaду вьзъмeмъ на пусте
1153310 месте хлеби . наситити толико народа .
1153400 і гла імъ ис . колико хлебъ іматe . они жe реше ж .
1153410 і мало рибиць .
1153500 і повeле народу възлeшти на зeмли .
1153600 і приімъ ж хлебъ і риби . хвалa въздавъ преломи .
1153610 і дастъ учeникомъ своімъ . учeници жe народомъ .
1153700 і еше вси і наситише се . і вьзеше ізбитьки
1153710 укрухъ . ж кошьниць ісплънь .
1153800 і едъшийхъ беашe чeтири тисеште мaжь .
1153810 разве жeнъ і детий .
1153900 і отъпушть народи . вълезъ въ корабь .
1153910 і придe въ предели . магдаланьски .
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Old 12-27-2011, 05:30 PM   #12
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You're very welcome SoM. Thank you for your close guidance with the conversions. It kinda sparked the idea of re-adopting some of our old pre-Serb influenced characters to make our alphabet not only more flexible, but more accurate to represent our local Macedonian dialects, including those in Aegean and Pirin Macedonia.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:37 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Coolski View Post
It kinda sparked the idea of re-adopting some of our old pre-Serb influenced characters to make our alphabet not only more flexible, but more accurate to represent our local Macedonian dialects, including those in Aegean and Pirin Macedonia.
I don't agree with your opinion.
I think our alphabet is very flexible and applicable, and the situation from before ten centuries can't be compared with the situation from 19 or 20th century. In those times some of today characteristic voices didn't exist, and vice-versa. Except "њ" and "љ" I don't think we have other serb influenced characters.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:34 PM   #14
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As soon as the dark vowel was removed, a dividing line between the Republic and the rest of Macedonia was drawn in my opinion. Replacing the dark vowel with an apostrophe (in rare instances) was not a step forward. It was done to distance the Macedonians from the Bulgarians. Quite stupid given that we gave them their language in the first place.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Po-drum View Post
I think our alphabet is very flexible and applicable, and the situation from before ten centuries can't be compared with the situation from 19 or 20th century. In those times some of today characteristic voices didn't exist, and vice-versa.
Our current alphabet is not compatible with all Macedonian dialects and our post-WWII Macedonian orthographers made mistakes. Their apparent reasoning (distancing it from 'Bulgarian') was extremely stupid, as Risto pointed out.
Quote:
Except "њ" and "љ" I don't think we have other serb influenced characters.
If you read 19th century Macedonian literature you will see the use of нь, ль, гь and кьe (or even кѥ) used where they essentially represent the same sound as њ, љ, ѓ and ќ. The j was never necessary, we could have used an existing Cyrillic i or й or in other cases я and ѥ. I am in two minds about the letter џ, I suppose it could have been given a pass to avoid using two letters for the sake of forming a single sound, but it seems to be used only for foreign loanwords. The letter ъ was an absolute necessity in words like късмет, it never should have been excluded given that it is distinctly Cyrillic and could also have been used in words like църква, първа, търка, ъргьa. If we did this, it would not have marginalised any dialects, and would still make sense (phonetically) to speakers of the dialects in the republic because in most cases it is practically silent.

In the end, our current version of the Cyrillic alphabet - despite the fact that original Cyrillic was based on one of our own dialects - is probably the most simplistic and bastardised of all along with Serbian. We should have stayed true to our literary tradition.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:44 AM   #16
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I would say that the dark vowel is required for existing Macedonian dialects within the Republic of Macedonia. One side of my family uses the dark vowel all the time.

I'll also add that the characters with which our Alphabet varies compared with the Serb alphabet, is almost 1:1. This is evident by investigating the logical order of the Serbian letters in their alphabet, when compared with the illogical replacement of the sounds in the order of the Macedonian alphabet.

SR: абвгдђежз_ијклљмнњопрстћуфхцчџш.

MK: абвгдѓежзѕијклљмнњопрстќуфхцчџш.

Why does ѓ appear after д and not г in the Macedonian alphabet? Because it is placed after the д in the Serbian alphabet, and it is the Macedonian equivalent of the Serbian palatised д (ђ). Logic would imply that our alphabet would read абвгѓд... but it doesn't.

The same story goes with ќ, which was another swapped character in the Macedonian alphabet. It appears after т in the Macedonian alphabet, rather than к. When we realise that what comes after т in the Serbian alphabet is in fact palatised т (Ћћ) it somehow makes sense in Serbian but not in Macedonian.

They didn't even bother swapping the order to reflect logic!

Other than our extra character ѕ (dz) and ѐ ѝ, our current script is very much a slight tweak from the modern Serbian alphabet.

We have every legitimacy to use whatever original cyrillic characters we like I say, and why not write in an alphabet that not only belongs to us, but more logically and flexibly represents what all of our dialects sound like?
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:50 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

If you read 19th century Macedonian literature you will see the use of нь, ль, гь and кьe (or even кѥ) used where they essentially represent the same sound as њ, љ, ѓ and ќ. The j was never necessary, we could have used an existing Cyrillic i or й or in other cases я and ѥ. I am in two minds about the letter џ, I suppose it could have been given a pass to avoid using two letters for the sake of forming a single sound, but it seems to be used only for foreign loanwords. The letter ъ was an absolute necessity in words like късмет, it never should have been excluded given that it is distinctly Cyrillic and could also have been used in words like църква, първа, търка, ъргьa. If we did this, it would not have marginalised any dialects, and would still make sense (phonetically) to speakers of the dialects in the republic because in most cases it is practically silent.

In the end, our current version of the Cyrillic alphabet - despite the fact that original Cyrillic was based on one of our own dialects - is probably the most simplistic and bastardised of all along with Serbian. We should have stayed true to our literary tradition.
I don't think it's bastardised but rather I would say it's very easy for learning and practical use (on the contrary you have english where you don't know how to write what you have heard). That was one of the basic principles when it'was codified.
I don't see substantial difference between "нь, ль" and "њ, љ", the second forms are just ligatures and they are very useful invention of Vuk Karadzich. The same principle was proposed about ѓ, ќ but the second commission have accepted with little modification the way Krste P. Misirkov have written them: г', к'. Same way is used by Selishchev in his book about macedonian dialects.
џ is used for first time in Romanian Cyrillic alphabet by 15-16 century, there is no need of two signs. It's easier.
About "j" the arguments were:
-it goes very often with "и" and use of "i" would make confusion in macedonian post WW2 citizens and students.
-there was already established practice for use of this sign in Vardar Macedonia under serbian occupation.
I agree there was politicaly motivated removal of already present sign for the dark vowel in macedonian alphabet from november 1944.
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I would say that the dark vowel is required for existing Macedonian dialects within the Republic of Macedonia. One side of my family uses the dark vowel all the time.

We have every legitimacy to use whatever original cyrillic characters we like I say, and why not write in an alphabet that not only belongs to us, but more logically and flexibly represents what all of our dialects sound like?
First of all our language is very different from the language from 10,11,12,13 century..
Dark vowel or "призвук" as it's described in macedonian grammar is object of discussions in all languages where it's present.
In our dialects with little exceptions it is secondary developed on places (of yus) where it was not found in the old texts because old ъ<o(сон) and ь<e(ден) in allmost all macedonian dialects (with exception of the most northern ones). As we all know according to the formulations by Misirkov, central dialects are taken as basis for the formation of macedonian alphabet and grammatic. In those dialects this sound or semi-vocal plays "marginal function" and is found in very little number of words (ф рла, г рло) and some turkish words where it's defined as vocal "r" or marked with apostrophe. This are the arguments given by Blaze Koneski.
Macedonian dialects have different characteristics and all versions can't be incorporated in the literary language.
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:02 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Po-drum
I don't think it's bastardised but rather I would say it's very easy for learning and practical use (on the contrary you have english where you don't know how to write what you have heard).
Po-drum, we can try and explain it however we like, at the end of the day, our alphabet has been bastardised.
Quote:
I don't see substantial difference between "нь, ль" and "њ, љ", the second forms are just ligatures and they are very useful invention of Vuk Karadzich.
If our people had no problem learning the alphabet as it was for a 1000 years, I don't see why certain elements should have been 'simplified' based on the invention of a Serb. Cyrillic alphabets were never meant to be "write as you speak", and I am pretty sure if some peasant in Bulgaria can handle this, then so could the descendants of the people who created Cyrillic. Aside from the Serbs (and now Macedonians), no other Slavic-speaking peoples use the Cyrillic alphabet in this manner.
Quote:
The same principle was proposed about ѓ, ќ but the second commission have accepted with little modification the way Krste P. Misirkov have written them: г', к'. Same way is used by Selishchev in his book about macedonian dialects.
If you want to compare, then there are much more Macedonian literary figures who used the original letters like Pejcinovik, Miladinovci, Shapkarev, Cepenkov, etc.
Quote:
џ is used for first time in Romanian Cyrillic alphabet by 15-16 century, there is no need of two signs. It's easier.
That has little to do with Macedonian. How many native Macedonian words are there which use that letter? I can't think of any. It seems that it is only used for foreign loanwords or suffixes. Even Misirkov doesn't use it.
Quote:
About "j" the arguments were:
-it goes very often with "и" and use of "i" would make confusion in macedonian post WW2 citizens and students.
That is a poor excuse and an insult towards Macedonians, like they are that stupid that they wouldn't be able to work out an alphabet their own ancestors created.
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-there was already established practice for use of this sign in Vardar Macedonia under serbian occupation.
Whoever put forth that argument is an idiot.
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Macedonian dialects have different characteristics and all versions can't be incorporated in the literary language.
That may be so, but that doesn't mean the alphabet should contribute to the limitation. Koneski and co. did not do enough when codifying the literary language, they did not take enough consideration of the obvious fact that Macedonian is spoken in a much greater area than the confines of the Macedonian republic.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:18 PM   #19
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Po-drum, we can try and explain it however we like, at the end of the day, our alphabet has been bastardised.

If our people had no problem learning the alphabet as it was for a 1000 years, I don't see why certain elements should have been 'simplified' based on the invention of a Serb. Cyrillic alphabets were never meant to be "write as you speak", and I am pretty sure if some peasant in Bulgaria can handle this, then so could the descendants of the people who created Cyrillic. Aside from the Serbs (and now Macedonians), no other Slavic-speaking peoples use the Cyrillic alphabet in this manner.
I think it would be fair, if we would be more realistic (as you are allways trying to be).
In the first days of Macedonian Republic there was need of alphabet which would be easy for the people to use it.
We should not forget that the rate of illiteracy among the Macedonians was very high in those times. There was not even enough teachers about the new macedonian schools, and the first teachers were with just 5-6 years of education.
So those people had tried to make some connection with the educational results achieved in serbian schools between first and second world wars, and from that point of view it was OK. But maybe there was need of reconstruction after some 2-3 decades. Even today, it should not be taboo for no one. But we are still insecure as a nation, having on mind how we are still attacked from all sides by our neighbours. We have to get rid of all national complexes which don't give us opportunity to make future progress for unification as a people (one of them is your problem with Vuk Karadzich. I am quite sure you hate his very useful inventions just because he is Serb )
On the other side I agree that local patriotism and servitude towards serbian-communists of Blaze Koneski and co. have played negative role in this context.
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If you want to compare, then there are much more Macedonian literary figures who used the original letters like Pejcinovik, Miladinovci, Shapkarev, Cepenkov, etc.
The place of Krste Petkov Misirkov in macedonian linguistic and national history can't be same with the others. All those you have numbered were without clear national consciousness.
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
That has little to do with Macedonian. How many native Macedonian words are there which use that letter? I can't think of any. It seems that it is only used for foreign loanwords or suffixes. Even Misirkov doesn't use it.
OK. But as in the case of "s" it was taken as an unofficial principle not to use digraphs for a single voice. The fact that it was not serbian I guess was the reason not even to discus about it.
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
That is a poor excuse and an insult towards Macedonians, like they are that stupid that they wouldn't be able to work out an alphabet their own ancestors created.

Whoever put forth that argument is an idiot.
I agree with you, but only from today point of view.
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That may be so, but that doesn't mean the alphabet should contribute to the limitation. Koneski and co. did not do enough when codifying the literary language, they did not take enough consideration of the obvious fact that Macedonian is spoken in a much greater area than the confines of the Macedonian republic.
Agree.
B. Koneski and company have had enough time to improve the mistakes they have done in 44-45. Very often big peoples are making begginers mistakes just because of their vanity.
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:33 AM   #20
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In the first days of Macedonian Republic there was need of alphabet which would be easy for the people to use it.
I don't agree. Generally speaking, a Bulgarian peasant was no more literate or able in the 1870's than their Macedonian equivalent in the 1940's. I think the matter of Macedonians learning the proper alphabet was an entirely realistic expectation. There was no need to dumb it down.
Quote:
We have to get rid of all national complexes which don't give us opportunity to make future progress for unification as a people (one of them is your problem with Vuk Karadzich. I am quite sure you hate his very useful inventions just because he is Serb )
You're creating excuses for the mistakes of Koneski and co. I couldn't care if Karadzic was a Bulgarian or a Russian, there is no good reason why we should have strayed from something perfectly useful - our own existing alphabet.
Quote:
The place of Krste Petkov Misirkov in macedonian linguistic and national history can't be same with the others. All those you have numbered were without clear national consciousness.
That doesn't mean his example should have been given preference over the proper alphabet (not that the current alphabet is exactly the same as his anyway). We lost a long and traditional precedent unnnecessarily.
Quote:
OK. But as in the case of "s" it was taken as an unofficial principle not to use digraphs for a single voice.
The case with 's' is different. It has a history in early Cyrillic and is a sound that is present in native Macedonian words like ѕвезда, ѕид, ѕвер, ѕвони and ноѕе.
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The fact that it was not serbian I guess was the reason not even to discus about it.
The fact that it was not an unnecessary foreign element. You don't seem to place much concern on preservation and appear to be indirectly showing some sort of apologetic disposition towards Serbian influence. I see that as more of a problem that my moderate preservationist tendencies.
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