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Old 12-30-2010, 10:09 AM   #1
Big Bad Sven
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Default Albanian migration/expansion into Macedonia

Hey everyone, sorry if a familiar topic has already been posted.

After reading the very sad, but very real topic about the albanicisation of Macedonia, and also reading bull shit claims and “justification” from shiptars on why Macedonia belongs to them: mainly because they have “always” been in Macedonia, that I decided to make a thread were members can post evidence of shiptar migration into Macedonia and also the lack of shiptar numbers in Macedonia’s past.

I have put this into the “history” section of the forum, but if members think it should be in another category then the moderators can move this.

Feel free to add any information please.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:10 AM   #2
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The specific features of Trifunoski’s material should not be permitted to obscure, however, our appreciation of the general significance of this type of process, which certainly has not been confined in its relevance either to the movement of Albanians or to Macedonia. Three things are interesting about his findings.

First of all, they are supported independently by the incidental observations of travelers in the region from an earlier period. In spite of Albanian nationalist claims to the effect that “Albania” traditionally extends to the east of a line drawn between Bitola and Skopje, Albanian settlement east of the Ohrid and Prespa lakes and the river Crni Drim seems to have been relatively thin in the early years of the nineteenth century.

Secondly, an oral tradition regarding the origins of families, not infrequently extending back well over a century, is relatively common, making it possible to speak with precision and assurance about the origins of Albanian settlers in western Macedonia today.

Thirdly, whereas contemporary Macedonian slav stereotypes accounting for the growth of the Albanian population invariably focus upon the higher fertility of Albanians, a high proportion of the expansion of population does appear to be due to in-migration and of a type described by Cvijic. In many cases, these have involved quite long-range movements, with a large number of the Albanian settlers from western Macedonia interviewed by Trifunoski tracing their origins to the Albanian regions of Llumi, Peshkopi and Mat. Although the zadruga is usually discussed as a specifically Slav institution, Trifunoski notes that it is the strength of this tradition of familial solidarity among Albanians which supports this type of incremental movement.

Explaining Yugoslavia
John B. Allcock
Page 160
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:10 AM   #3
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Albanians started to make serious inroads into northwest Macedonia and Kosovo, however, only in the 17th century when Ottoman persecution of the native Slav population emptied these areas of their inhabitants. After the fall of the empire of Gjergj Slkenderbey, the Albanians were largely loyal to the ottoman beys. Most converted to Islam and were rewarded with new lands bordering Albania. Many also learnt the Ottoman elite language and were schooled in Anatolia, later becoming beys in their own right.

Macedonia: Bradt travel guide second edition.
Thammy Evans
Page 39
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:13 AM   #4
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An article from Maknwes by Carl Savich, below is some if the article, but the remainder of the article talks about the period of nazi occupation and the expulsion of macedonians by shiptars:

In the 18th century, the population of Tetovo began to increase. Residents from the following surrounding villages and suburbs began to settle in Tetovo: Brodec, Lisec, Selce, Poroj, Shipkovica, Gajre, Zhelino, Dobri Dol, Zherovjane, Novake, Gorno Palchiste, Senokos, Kamenane, and Gradec. Orthodox Macedonians, Bektashi and Sunni Muslim Albanians, Sunni Muslim Turks, Orthodox Serbs, and Roma were the major population groups of the city. By the end of the 19th century, the population of Tetovo was 19,000. The Slavic Orthodox villages and towns in the Tetovo municipality or district included Vratnica, Staro Selo, Tearce, Leshok, Belovishte, Jegunovce, Rogachevo, and Neproshteno.

Tetovo or Htetovo was originally an Orthodox Christian settlement. With the Ottoman Turkish conquest, the city was settled by Turks from Anatolia, Asia Minor, and Bulgaria. For much of its history, Tetovo was divided between the Orthodox Slavic section and the Muslim Turkish section. The majority of the Albanian settlement of Tetovo and the surrounding villages resulted due to an influx of Albanian migration and settlement from Albania. Albanian settlement is relatively recent and is due to Albanian migrations from Albania proper into the Polog valley. The Albanian migrations originated in the Albanian districts of Findi Berdita and Luma in Albania. Albanian migration and settlement in Tetovo and the surrounding villages from Albania began only in the 18th and 19th centuries. The massive, intensive migrations of Albanian settlers from Albania proper began slowly to alter the ethnic composition of the majority Slavic Orthodox city. Settlers also came from Kosovo-Metohija. In the late 19th century and early 20th century, the Orthodox Christians migrated out of Tetovo for economic and political reasons. The total Slavic migration out of the city amounted to 5,500 during this period. During World War I, 2,000 left. After World War I, 5,000 Turks migrated to Turkey. Following World War II, another large group of Turks migrated out of the city. These migrations of Turks again changed the ethnic make-up of the city leaving Macedonian Orthodox and Albanian Muslim populations as the bulk of the population of the city.


http://www.maknews.com/html/articles...h/savich1.html
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:22 AM   #5
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Notice how the article states that the albanians are immigrants into macedonia:


The main conflict between the Macedonian government and the Albanian immigrants is that their immigration into Macedonia is upsetting the delicate balance between ethnic groups. Albanians have been boycotting the Macedonian census for political reasons, but the last reliable figures show approximately 20% of the Macedonian population is ethnic Albanian (Pettifer 1994: 25).

http://www.hamline.edu/cla/academics...ans/paper.html



From the same article i found these two paragraphs interesting:

One of the first large recorded migrations occurred from 1689-1690. This is called the "Great Migration" of the Serbian peoples and subsequently is a "Great Migration" of Albanians. Estimates place the number of Serbs leaving at 400,000-500,000. The reason for this migration was the Ottoman-Hapsburg War of 1683-1699. As the war was being fought, the Austrian emperor, Leopold I, offered the Serbs exile in Hapsburg territories. In 1790 alone, 37,000 Serbian families left for Hungary. However, more died of illness and starvation than were living in exile. Many Serbs expected to come back to their homes in Kosovo, but this hope was not fully realized. At this time, the Serbs were living in the valleys and the Albanians were living in the harsher, more mountainous areas. As the Serbs migrated and left behind vacant land, the Albanians came down from the hills to farm the more fertile lowlands the Serbs had once worked. As the Serbs left and the Albanians began to fill their place (both from the mountains and from Albania), the demographic of Serb versus Albanian percentage of the population gradually began to shift toward the Albanian majority we have today. Also, the Ottomans encouraged the Kosovars to take over the lands of the Serbs as a war tactic. The subsequent dispute over who should rightfully have the land put into motion the resentments that began to drive apart the Serbs and Albanians who had lived together more or less peacefully for the earlier 900 years. This first great movement set up the ethnic conflict of present day.

As long as the politics of the nation has allowed it, Albanians have been dispersing from their original home of Albania. Historically, the movements have been in the area of the Balkans. In the eighteenth century, Albanian movement into Macedonia increased. To escape Ottoman rule, Albanians moved to start new communities in Italy, Greece, and along the Dalmatian Coast. Migrations into Kosovo were also common, partly because the Serbs moving out left land to farm, and partly because a plague swept through the area and killed many people who hadn’t left for migration. The Albanians found completely abandoned villages and fertile farmland with a sparse population density. At this particular time in the Diaspora, the Albanians let their contacts back home lapse and assimilated into the Slavic culture that had been dominant. These areas of settlement for the Albanians were familial units dispersed into small groups over a wide area. They lost the cultural security of tight-knit clans, but adopted the Southern Slav system of large family cooperatives in its place. This is one example of how Albanians assimilated into the culture of the area where they moved.

http://www.hamline.edu/cla/academics...ans/paper.html


Again the article mentions that albanian migration into macedonia increased in the 17th century, and also importantly mentions that when the serbs of kosovo were offered to leave to austrian lands, the albanians came from albania to settle in kosovo. This is important because leopold not only asked the serbs in kosovo, but also the "serbs" (more like macedonians!) in Skopje, Kumanovo and Tetovo to migrate to Austrian places as well. Hence those macedonian cities faced the same influx of albanian settlers from albanian mountains.
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:09 PM   #6
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bbs the migration that occured after the second world war is more or less albanians were kicked out by the envir roger into macedonia.Wherever macedonian farmers sold out their farms to albanians ,they have been establishing themselves.If they had similar birth to the macedonian population then there would be not much of a problem but one mother might have 10 to 20 children.A typical male looks forward to a life full of screwing & making babies all day.The other thing the macedonian govt is not really taking things seriosly & doing anything about it.The other thing is the govt does not have any idea what the are doing apparently when boris trajkovski was in power they let in 120000 albanians from kosovo & gave them instant citizenship so they can vote for trajkovski.This & other things is just crazy & is upsetting the balance of the population.

Last edited by George S.; 12-30-2010 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:58 PM   #7
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Good idea BBS.
Moved it from "History" to "Exposing Lies and Propaganda".
I think it is more appropriate here.
Can we collate more about the 150,000 citizens offered citizenship in recent times?
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
The Austrian army did not interfere anymore in the fights against the Ottoman - Tartar forces. After the suppression of the Karposh Uprising, the Grand Vizier declared the war 'Holy' and that the raya and the Muslims became equal. The Tartars of Crimea were stationed in the Skopje Field, and from there they entered Tetovo, Veles and Mariovo, suppressing the rebellions, and robbing the population. In the meantime, the Arnaut (Albanian) Koja Halil Pasha arrived ftom Peloponnese in Skopje. He had also destroyed everything in his path, and met Tartar Khan in Skopje. Although the forces of Arnaut Koja Halil Pasha did not participate in the suppression of the Karposh Uprising, because they arrived later, his Albanian mercenaries began to take over. Later they acquired land in Skopje and Tetovo region as a gratitude from the Sultan, for the evil that they had spread in these areas.
Vanche Stojchev. “Military History of Macedonia" page 155.

Quote:
The consequences of the Karposh Uprising were of historical and permanent significance for the Macedonian people. The Empires, the Austrian and the Ottoman, declared the war Holy. In the name of God and Allah they fought to improve the conditions of the Christians and the Muslims. The Macedonian people suffered the most from the penetration of the Austrian army, and later from the revenge of the Ottoman and the Tartar forces. Their torture forced the Macedonian people to leave their homes and their land. The pashas gave their properties to those who caused the greatest suffering to the Macedonian people.



The hard life under the Ottoman rule became even harder after the suppression of the Karposh Uprising and the retreat of the Austrian army. Although the Grand Vizier Kuprulu carried out reforms to improve the status of the Christians, the local authorities took severe revenge on the unarmed people. As a result of that situation, in the areas of Skopje, Tetovo and Tikves, many refugees left to the north. Under the leadership of the Patriarch of Pech, Arsenije III Carnojevich, in 1690, the Great Migration of the Christians was organized. People from Pech, Prishtina, Vranje, Prizren, from Skopje area, Kumanovo area, Kratovo area, Kriva Palanka, Polog, Veles, Shtip, Kochani, Bitola and even Salonica, were all moving north to Hungary, that is Vojvodina. There are data about the number of people who migrated. In some sources the figure of 30 or 40,000 people is noted. However, recent sources prove that the number was between 70-80,000 and 100,000 people. After the migration of the Macedonian population, the Ottoman authorities brought Turks- Yuruks, Albanians and other population on their properties. These people accepted Islam. After arriving in Austria, that is Vojvodina, Macedonians moved to Russia, where a Macedonian regiment was created.
Vanche Stojchev. “Military History of Macedonia" page 157
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:39 PM   #9
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Alot of info regrading the Albanian migrations into Macedonia can also be found here - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=1622&page=11

Quote:
In many cases communal disputes seem to be related to the different geographical origin of the local clans. Though no proper research has been done, it is a fact that between 1750 and 1850 successive waves of refugees settled in Macedonia. They were Christians, Albanian-, Greek- or Vlach-speaking, evicted from Epirus due to the continuous disturbances caused initially by the Albanian tribes and later on by the Ali pasha irregulars. In the course of a century a considerable number of new villages were established throughout Macedonia, while in other cases refugee families settled in Slav-speaking communities.
Social cleavages and national "awakening" in Ottoman Macedonia, by Basil Gounaris, East European Quarterly, Winter 1995 v29 n4 p409(18).


Macedonia, just like the rest of the Balkans, according to the evidence available to us, has been an area where migrations, settlements, and forcible evictions have been common-place. For the Albanians to claim otherwise would be to distort history. The common myth that the Albanians share with their cousins in Athens, one of a perpetual cultural and even racial presence, demonstrates the fictitious homogeneity invented for them by Others and how this brand of ethno-nationalism is very mainstream in their society. Once we look past the fable of Pelasgians and Illyrians we see nothing more than a very customary trait in the Balkans that is millenias old.
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:43 PM   #10
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good one tm.
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