Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > Exposing Lies and Propaganda

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-30-2013, 10:14 PM   #351
Risto the Great
Senior Member
 
Risto the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia
Posts: 14,745
Risto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Interesting.
Is there any information on the Mardaites language?
__________________
Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA

"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Risto the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 10:54 AM   #352
Epirot
Member
 
Epirot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Epirus or Albania - Albania or Epirus
Posts: 399
Epirot is on a distinguished road
Default

Carlin,

A link between Mirdites (one of the chief Albanian tribes) and Mardaites is untenable at best. You're clutching at straws if you try to show them as being the same. Its nothing but a mere of coincidence which comes probably from the similarity on the names. I remind just vaguely a passage I've read somewhere which claimed a possible connection between Alb. Mirdites and an obscure tribe of Persia (being called Mirdi). But even a distant link with Mardaites is altogether false for most of Mirdites bear names which are exclusively Albanian.

Quote:
Some of the Mirdites might pass anywhere for Englishmen of the blonde type.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1913_7.html
Quote:
and the confederation of the Mirdites, who are Roman Catholics and governed by a chief of the Doda family.
Quote:
In North Albania, the Mirdites and most of the Malissori are Roman Catholics, and they are the descendants of the men who, in 1320, after the Serbian Czars, at that time holding Scodra and the plain, had abandoned Catholicism and adopted Orthodoxy, refused to give up their allegiance to the Pope.
One is perplexed to know how come that Mirdites were of Roman faith? Had they been from Lebanon, they would be Muslims. Therefore such a connection is nowhere near the truth. The name of Mirdita (region of Mirdites) is quite Albanian. Here is a legend how they received that name:

Quote:
Passing from the domain of history to that of philology, he proceeded to explain the derivation of the name Mirdite, according to the tradition of the country. This relates that, on the morning of the battle of Kossova, Sultan Amurath meeting the chief of their tribe, who had brought an auxiliary force to his assistance, was saluted by him with the words mire dite (" good day " in Albanian) ; and that in consequence of this, when the battle was over, and he undertook to guarantee the rights of his valiant allies, he gave them the name of Mirdites, in commemoration of the words of good omen which he had heard in the morning.

Researches in the Highlands of Turkey: Including Visits to Mount, Henry Fanshawe Tozer - 2004
Considering several posts of yours, I guess you opt for an Arabian origin of the Albanians. As the Muslim turned A. B. Kopanski (of Polish descent) has argued, many Muslim writers were fond of arabizing the origin of certain people who received Islam. I don't know whether you've read Kopanski's article, so I extracted some interesting parts:

Quote:
The Muslim ethnographers and chroniclers of the 'European' Middle Ages tried to explain the ethnogenesis of Albanian 'Al-Arna'uts' according to their own knowledge. They identified the ancestors of these Al-Arnauts with the Christian Arab tribes who migrated to the heartland of Byzantine empire. The Arab writers of the classic ages of Islam knew the geographical treatises of cosmographos Ptolemy from Alexandria ( the 2nd century CE), who described the Illyrian tribe 'Albanoi' as the bellicose inhabitants who lived between the Roman-controlled Dyrrachion and Albanopolis. The Muslims of al-Andalus and Sicily also knew very well the Sakaliba, or the Alanic-origin Slavicized Croats and Serbs who as the 'mamluks' of the Altaic Avars invaded the Illyrian part of the Balkans in the first years of Hijrah. The Slovenians and the Slavicized Croats and Serbs forced the native Albanoi herdmen to desert their ancient cradle Arbanon, north of the lake Ohrid. Known to the medieval Europeans as Arber or Arben, these Albanian fiset (clans) fortified themselves in the hills of south-western Illyricum. Probably some Arab Christian emigrants from Syria lived in Macedonia in the seventh century CE. It is possible that they joined the expelled Illyrian Albanians on their trek to a new settlement inside the Shqeptaria. The Byzantine sources indicate that the Christianized Arab tribe Banu Ghassan led by Jabal bin al-Ayhan called Arna'ut, fled from Syria during Muslim al- futuhat and received from the emperor Constantine II a fief in Macedonia. Some historians speculate that the emperor Nicephorus I who ruled in Constantinople between 802 and 811 CE, was himself a scion of of Jabal, the last Ghassanid chieftain. During the reign of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid, even the serious Muslim scholars believed that the Arnauts of Albania are Arab Ghassanids from Syria or the Berbers from Afrikiyya who 'being blinded by the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance) became Nasara (Christians). They crossed the Mediterranean Sea and settled down in the land of Rum.' (1)

In the high Middle Ages, both the Muslim Osmanlis and the Christian Habsburgs recruited to their armies the vicious dark-skinned Morovlachi from the Bosnian and Montenegrin hills. Those nominal Orthodox Christianswere completely Serbicized in the end of sixteen century.

There are plenty numismatic and paleographic evidences that the Arab and Berber Muslims from Sicily
and Maghreb explored the Dalmatian coast and established several trade posts in Albania.

After the collapse of Islamic state in Sicily, many Muslim Arab and Berber muhajereen could crossed the
narrow Adriatic Sea and took refuge in the Albanian hills . How many survivors of the massacre of the
Muslim deportees from the Apulian city of Lucera (1300CE) escaped the Christian sword and found asylum in Albania is a subject of historical supposition. Apparently, some of the Crne Arapi (Black Arabs) of the medieval Hum, Bosnia and Albania were the descendants of the mujaheddin of the last Muslim
intifadah in Sicily led by the legendary Al-Mirabetto ('Amir Abad'). (2)

Undoubtedly, some Muslim survivors from 'safe haven' of Lucera reached the self-reliant Ragusian merchant republic which had in the past a very good trade relations with the Islamic Sicily, Spain and Levant. If these Muslims refugees from Sicily and Apulia were among the Albanians, certainly, they were those people who enthusiastically welcomed the Osmanli troops led by Yakut Pasha and Hodja Firouz. These Osmanli generals who captured Kroia (Ak Hisar) in 1396 CE, liberated Albanians from the heavy yoke of Catholic church's tax imposition.

Like the medieval Christian humanists who identified the Turks with the ancient mythical 'Teucros' described by Homer, or the Muslims with the ancient 'Musulami'(the warlike people of African Numidia), the Muslim writers of the classic ages of Islam tried to 'Arabize' origin of many peoples with the mythical nations known to them from the pre-Islamic Arab legends. For example, the medieval Arabs believed that the Caucassian peoples are descendants of Banu Kureish, and the Nordic Sakaliba (Slavs), as well as the Turkic Bashgurd (Bashkirs) and Bulgars were descendants of the giant Yemenites of Ad. (3)

Before the Osmanli conquest of the eastern coast of Adriatic Sea, no army representing centralized government has ever penetrated the Albanian heartland. The Roman legions ignored the rocky hills, reducing their own presence to the fortified posts alongside the famous Via Egnatia. The majestic remotness of 'White Hills' reinforced the cultural isolation of its people. This outlying mountains of Albania acted always as a natural bulwark and the Adriatic coast below them as a rampart against any foreign invasion. Albanians are the last and the most virile European nation of clans. They preserved their doughty love of patriarchal freedom and the extraordinary degree of masculine dignity

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shqiperia/message/1174
__________________
IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

Last edited by Epirot; 01-31-2013 at 11:14 AM.
Epirot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 12:26 PM   #353
George S.
Senior Member
 
George S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10,121
George S. is on a distinguished road
Default

How about the albanians who were from Albania in asia minor.Their movements to Albania
(illyria) about 6 -7 century .Seems to be a more plausible theory.The Mardaites is it really talking of albanians?If so what were their language??Seems to be very little evidence.
__________________
"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
George S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 12:51 PM   #354
Carlin
Member
 
Carlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 654
Carlin is on a distinguished road
Default

Hi Epirot -

Quote:
Carlin,

A link between Mirdites (one of the chief Albanian tribes) and Mardaites is untenable at best. You're clutching at straws if you try to show them as being the same. Its nothing but a mere of coincidence which comes probably from the similarity on the names. I remind just vaguely a passage I've read somewhere which claimed a possible connection between Alb. Mirdites and an obscure tribe of Persia (being called Mirdi). But even a distant link with Mardaites is altogether false for most of Mirdites bear names which are exclusively Albanian.
The link between Mirdites and Mardaites is as untenable as the link between Illyrians and Albanians, or Dacians with Albanians. It's a hypothesis nonetheless, just like the Illyrian theory (..but we know virtually nothing of the Illyrian languages and dialects, so they can't be classified in any way. The connection of Illyrian with modern Albanian is conjecture and speculation - it's not based on linguistic facts or other readily available information that can be compared and evaluated. It's an "assumption" and a hypothesis.)

As I have already indicated, my hypothesis rests mainly on historical facts and reports which tell us that a people named Mardaites, were settled in significant numbers in Epirus, Aetolia, Kephallenia and other Balkan lands as per policy of Roman (Byzantine) emperors. This settlement and migration is as well attested as that of Slavic and Bulgar settlement in the Balkans. I have no reason to doubt or dispute its historicity.

In general, migrations (voluntary or involuntary) and settlements occurred quite frequently. Local migrations took place as well, and oftentimes went unnoticed by the historian. Due to wars and famines entire tribes and towns used to be depopulated (more than once), and had to be replaced by newcomers. The villages and towns in border areas between states and empires suffered the most; many such migrations and re-settlements happened as a result of politics and diplomatic or political agreements.

Quote:
Some of the Mirdites might pass anywhere for Englishmen of the blonde type.
They may as well be of the blonde type. This is of no interest to me.

Quote:
and the confederation of the Mirdites, who are Roman Catholics and governed by a chief of the Doda family.
I know that many Albanians are Roman Catholics.

Quote:
In North Albania, the Mirdites and most of the Malissori are Roman Catholics, and they are the descendants of the men who, in 1320, after the Serbian Czars, at that time holding Scodra and the plain, had abandoned Catholicism and adopted Orthodoxy, refused to give up their allegiance to the Pope.
One is perplexed to know how come that Mirdites were of Roman faith? Had they been from Lebanon, they would be Muslims. Therefore such a connection is nowhere near the truth. The name of Mirdita (region of Mirdites) is quite Albanian. Here is a legend how they received that name..
Incorrect. The Mardaites were non-Orthodox Christians (most likely Monothelete Christians), even when they lived in Lebanon and adjacent areas. I have already indicated this in one of my previous posts. They were not Muslims.

Even as Monotheletes the Romans used the Mardaites as allies and proxies in their wars and battles against the Muslims (Arabs) and other enemies.

In addition to this, here is a copy & paste from one of my previous posts which I have not edited (but reserve the right to update/edit my views as I continue reading and learning):

The regions of Albania and Epirus have traditionally been under the jurisdiction of the Constantinople church, and the Roman/Byzantine authorities regarded the inhabitants of these provinces as Orthodox Christians (regardless of what their ethnic background might be). I'm not aware that Western Christians/Catholics exerted any meaningful influence on these territories prior to the (roughly) 1000s but I might be mistaken. Anyway, it seems that no such influence can be found and it would appear plausible to conclude that Illyrians were Christianized (at some point) by Constantinople/Eastern church.

This is where the problem arises. If Illyrians became Orthodox Christians, how come the Albanians were not? If anything, a neutral observer would expect them to remain pagans but this is not the case. The Byzantines regarded them as "heretic" Christians and "half-believers", just like the Mardaites!

If we now trace the history of the settlement of Mardaites in these territories, starting with Epirus, the attitude of the Byzantine authorities starts to make more sense as Mardaites were either Monothelite or Monophysite Christians. These branches of Christianity originated in the Levant.

At best, the influence of the Roman Catholic church started only after 1082, when the Normans captured Durres. After the Normans, Venetians appear on the scene. It was the Roman Catholics who further popularized the term Albania, establishing Regnum Albanae.

Quote:
Passing from the domain of history to that of philology, he proceeded to explain the derivation of the name Mirdite, according to the tradition of the country. This relates that, on the morning of the battle of Kossova, Sultan Amurath meeting the chief of their tribe, who had brought an auxiliary force to his assistance, was saluted by him with the words mire dite (" good day " in Albanian) ; and that in consequence of this, when the battle was over, and he undertook to guarantee the rights of his valiant allies, he gave them the name of Mirdites, in commemoration of the words of good omen which he had heard in the morning.

Researches in the Highlands of Turkey: Including Visits to Mount, Henry Fanshawe Tozer - 2004
No problem.

Quote:
Considering several posts of yours, I guess you opt for an Arabian origin of the Albanians. As the Muslim turned A. B. Kopanski (of Polish descent) has argued, many Muslim writers were fond of arabizing the origin of certain people who received Islam.
You did not read my posts in detail. The Mardaites were not Arabs. They most likely spoke an Indo-European language or dialect. Some have thought the Mardaites to be Persians, Kurds, or Armenians - but not much is known and such assertions are based on "belief" and not facts (even in this scenario it would place them in the Indo-European family of languages and peoples).

I refrain from taking any final 'stand' or final 'point of view' (as more evidence and facts may always be uncovered) on anything.

Based on the evidence I have read so far I opt, probabilistically, for a Mardaite origin of Albanians.



--> Updated note with additional info:





What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the 11th century. [34] It was discovered in a Serbian manuscript dated 1628 and was first published in 1934 by Radoslav Grujic. This fragment of a legend from the time of Tsar Samuel endeavours, in a catechismal 'question and answer' form, to explain the origins of peoples and languages. It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: Orthodox, half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians) and non-believers. The Albanians find their place among the nations of half-believers. If the dating of Grujic is accepted, which is based primarily upon the contents of the text as a whole, this would be the earliest written document referring to the Albanians as a people or language group. [35]

It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

34.^ R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th – 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3
35.^ Extract from: Grujic, Radoslav: Legenda iz vremena Cara Samuila o poreklu naroda. in: Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198 200. Translated from the Old Church Slavonic by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th – 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3. Albanian History.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians

Last edited by Carlin; 01-31-2013 at 04:02 PM.
Carlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 04:54 PM   #355
Epirot
Member
 
Epirot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Epirus or Albania - Albania or Epirus
Posts: 399
Epirot is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
as untenable as the link between Illyrians and Albanians, or Dacians with Albanians.
Carlin, all kinds of inquiry points to an Illyrian origin of the Albanians. Our knowledge on Illyrian is scanty as long as no Illyrian inscription has been found so far. But Albanian stand near than any other language to the Illyrian (several toponymes as well as anthroponymes were explained via Albanian). When several Messapian words were discovered, linguists noticed some similarities with Albanian, making plain the fact that Albanian is a continuation of one of the Illyrian dialects. A more convincing connection is demonstrated by the culture. There is ample evidence to point out certain Illyrian traditions and customs which in Albania are still in use. One may mention in passing the polyphonic singing, white cap - pileus - as well as Pyrrhic dance. Additional evidence might be found as well in genetics - one of them draw the attention to the considerable Illyrian component on modern Albanians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
The connection of Illyrian with modern Albanian is conjecture and speculation - it's not based on linguistic facts or other readily available information that can be compared and evaluated.
Actually the Illyrian theory is still the most received by modern scholars. Even the most scepticists agree with the Illyrian theory, although they have their hesitations at the place where the Albanians were shaped. In short, linguists are still arguing whether proto-Albanians lived always in Albania or they came from the interior Balkans (they consider province of Dardania as more plausible). That assumption is based on the fact that Albanian is lacking of maritime terminology, while admitedly its vocabulary is way richer in the field of livestock. If Albanian is lacking of original nautical terms, this might be attributed to certain factors. They might have used to live throghout Adriatic shores before they shifted to the mountains. The Slavic invasion, thus, prompted a switch from the agriculture to the semi-nomadic type of sheep-breeding. Its very plausible that transhumance has most contributed to the impoverishment of maritime terminology. Other linguists have opted for other locations like Dacia Rispensis (Orel) or Carpia (Russu), but their hypothesis are totally unfounded considering that no source indicate the arrival of Albanians. The most palpable arguments on the Illyrian origin of Albanians are as following:

- Not all Illyrians did succumb to the Romanization. Roman sources are abounds with references to a non-Romanized population which used to live in Illyria. Its worth of mentioning the opinion of Fanulla Papazoglu: "In conclusion, Dardania is evidently one of the less Romanized Balkan provinces"..

- Powerful Illyrian streams from North found shelter in northern Albania, which suits perfectly for survival due to its rugged terrain. In accord with that is perhaps the fact Slavs were barely to be found in northern Albania including Montenegro (who geographically form one unit):

"Not only is there no evidence of the Slav' period in the cities of Dukle, but no Slav settlement or necropolis has been found anywhere in Montenegro, with the probable exception of the mixed necropolis of Mijela near Virpazar on Lake Shkoder".



I don't give much weight to the repeated statement that Albanians went unnoticed down to XIth century. All of Roman Empire was in state of upheaval making difficult to record every corner of territory. When some tranquility took place, Byzantines caught their attention to several scattered pockets which were evidently non-Slavic. That's why the Byzantines restored their power precisely on the Albanians and Vlachs. Both of them were mentioned approximately at the same time. Byzantines had no hint that Albanians arrived from elsewhere. Their chroniclers constantly refer to Albania as Illyria or to its inhabitants as Illyrians:








Quote:
Donald M. Nicol, “The Despotate of Epiros (1267 -1479), p. 192-3:

The Chronicle of Tocco, though it breaks off seven years before he died, must stand as the encomium and the epitaph of Carlo Tocco. Bessarion would not have approved of its vulgar language and its lack of finesse. But in its simple way it is more eloquent of the truth of Carlo's life and of the people whom he conquered and ruled than the sophistries and artificialities of the numerous encomia and epitaphs produced by more polished and learned Byzantine writers of the age. One of them, Isidore of Kiev, author of a lengthy panegyric of John VIII Palaiologos, devotes four of his sixty-seven pages to the achievements of Carlo Tocco. He was, says Isidore, a man of action, well trusted by the emperors and honoured by them with the title of Despot. His ancestral realm was insular, comprising the islands of Ithaka, Zakynthos, Leukas and Cephalonia. Little by little he added to it the Epirote portion of the Aitolians as far as the lands of the Thesprotians and the Molossians, and the area from Acheloos up to the Euenos river. The coastal parts of this territory, writes Isidore, eager to show off his erudition, are inhabited by Hellenes; but the interior and upper regions are peopled by barbarians … (among whom) are the Albanians, an Illyrian race of nomadic and wretched lifestyle, with no cities, castles, villages, fields or vineyards. The cities of Epiros, however, are still of pure Hellenic stock: Ambrakia (Arta), on the Gulf of that name, and the other (Ioannina) a city founded by one John, which stands on the Acherousian Lake and may have been the Ephyra of the ancient Thesprotians.
The link between Albanians and Illyrians is more than a mere assumption. It's a well-rooted tradition which can be traced back to the Byzantine authors. Recent investigation has just bolstered it by proving that Albanians were descendants of Illyrians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
This settlement and migration is as well attested as that of Slavic and Bulgar settlement in the Balkans. I have no reason to doubt or dispute its historicity.
I do not dispute it either. Your chief error consist on the fact you make generalization on Mardaites. Based on what you assume that Mardaites were spread in a large territory including all of Albania?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
This is where the problem arises. If Illyrians became Orthodox Christians, how come the Albanians were not? If anything, a neutral observer would expect them to remain pagans but this is not the case.
Yet there is an interesting proof. No source ascribe the Christianization of Albanians which plainly means that Albanians have embraced the new faith centuries before Slavic invasions. Had the Albanians been pagans at that period, Byzantines surely would sent their missionaries to baptize them as they did with Bulgarians and certain barbarian peoples. But no missionary has been sent to Albanians.
__________________
IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

Last edited by Epirot; 02-01-2013 at 07:44 AM.
Epirot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 05:27 AM   #356
Soldier of Macedon
Administrator
 
Soldier of Macedon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Outpost
Posts: 13,006
Soldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond reputeSoldier of Macedon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
In terms of specific concordances, Albanian and Dacian are matched together on the development of *au> a (Orel 2000: 12) and the development of *e as well (Orel 2000: 1).
In which words?
Quote:
It would seem natural to assume that Illyrian and Dacian were more similar.......
Right, but are those similarities shared with Albanian? The surviving Dacian list of words seems to have more similarities with Balto-Slavic than with Albanian.
Quote:
About 160 of the Romanian substratum words have cognates in Albanian..........
Which of those common words between the two are cognates with recorded Dacian and/or Illyrian words?
Quote:
The Polish linguist Milewski Tadeusz (1966 and 1969) suggests that in the southern regions of Poland appear names that are unusual in northern Poland, possibly related to Dacian or Illyrian names......
How many of those regional names can be explained through Albanian?
__________________
In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a full blooded Macedonian.
Soldier of Macedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 06:45 AM   #357
George S.
Senior Member
 
George S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10,121
George S. is on a distinguished road
Default

Nothing is said of a connect of albanians with dacians except that the romanians originated from the dacians.
__________________
"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
George S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 08:06 AM   #358
Epirot
Member
 
Epirot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Epirus or Albania - Albania or Epirus
Posts: 399
Epirot is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
In which words?
I think Orel's study deals with that:



Whereas the following link display several phonetic commonalities:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/c.../message/35070

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Right, but are those similarities shared with Albanian?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Which of those common words between the two are cognates with recorded Dacian and/or Illyrian words?
Before I further proceed on asnwering your question, I shall demonstrate some interesting cognates which link Illyrian with Dacian. I'd be interested to know your opinion if a link between the above languages is feasible. The name of Dacian has a cognate in Illyrian:

Quote:
Bronwen Riley and Dan Dinescu, Transylvania: The ancient geographer Strabo wrote that the Dacians, the original inhabitants of Romania, once called themselves 'Daoi', which has been linked with the Phrygian word for wolf, daos, and the Illyrian word dhaunos, of the same meaning ( 2007: 107)
Quote:
Budimir, however, discussing only the word acomw, connects it with the Illyrian sabaia, "beer", and also with the Dacian seba-
(Papazoglou 1978: 219)
Certain Dacian words which have possibly been noticed in Romanian are to be found in Albanian as well:

Quote:
Linguists have studied the Romanian language to find which words come from Dacian origin. They have discovered one hundred and sixty words with this origin.

These terms cover a very wide area beginning with the human body (buz| = lip; ceaf| = nape; grumaz = neck; guÕ| = goitre), the family (copil = child; prunc = baby; zestre = dowry) . . . agricultural, pastoral, viticultural, piscicultural activities (maz| re = peas; Ûarin| =tilled land; baci = shepherd making cheese; mînz = colt; strung| = small gate through which sheep are passed to be milked; Ûarc = enclosure . . .gard = fence), the physical environment (m| gur| = lone hill or mountain; mal = bank) the flora (brad = fir-tree; copac = tree) . . . Certainly the number of these terms will increase following subsequent research; they will also show us other aspects of the linguistic inheritance; scholars already consider as belonging to this inheritance the suffixes -esc, -e Õ te, which are so frequent in Romanian and characteristic of it (Giurescu 60-61).

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/l.../romanian.html
*Mal is well-attested in Illyrian.
*Karpa is well-attested in both Illyria and Dacia.
*Buza is also attested in Illyrian as well as in Thracian. The most plausible theory remain that which links with Alb. buzë/a (lip).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
How many of those regional names can be explained through Albanian?
The Polish linguist drew attention to the name of Carpati:

Quote:
the name Karpaty only the old short a remained and a, conf. with the Greek Kagfidrr/;, German Harfada, Albanian karpę.
.
Even the name of Balaton lake is being associated with Albanian by Milewski. It might have been of Illyrian origin considering that Illyrians were well-established there.

Quote:
G. Bonfante (1985) and others after him also posit an Illyrian word *balta that lives on in the Albanian language (balte 'silt, mud')
Quote:
V. Toporov showed that *balt 'swamp' survives in many place names from the southern shores of the Baltic down to the Mediterranean (Toporov 1975-90/1, 189)
In addition with that, there are several other examples which points to that name in Illyria (the Lombardian dialect palta, the Trieste dialect paltan (=mud), ancient Dalmatian balta (= wet), Albanian balte).
__________________
IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

Last edited by Epirot; 02-02-2013 at 08:12 AM.
Epirot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 11:50 AM   #359
Carlin
Member
 
Carlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 654
Carlin is on a distinguished road
Default

Hello Epirot.

1) I don’t want to retread the arguments for the Illyrian origin of Albanians (so I will not address some of your comments at this moment). There are strong arguments against this theory as well, but I will not post them either.

In short, I am very doubtful of the linguistic explanations and arguments provided but of course it is a valid, working hypothesis.

All of the proposed Messapian cognates you outline are only proposed and likely etymologies. For each of them there are other cognates from a variety of languages; but we are dealing with a handful of words at best. To the best of my knowledge, both Illyrian and Messapian are classified as extinct languages and linguists can't say much about them in general. Albanian being a continuation of one of the Illyrian dialects simply does not follow here, and is again an assumption. It does not constitute a convincing proof or connection. In many cases linguists play 'etymological games' with one another and come up with words and etymologies that rest on faulty assumptions.

There are tons of theories out there. Here is one -
SLAVIC, A BALTICIZED ALBANIAN?
http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm

2) You are correct about Albanians' appearance in history. Even if the Albanians were mentioned for the first time in the 11th century it does not follow that Albanians arrived in the Balkans only in the 11th century. They were there earlier, but how ‘earlier’ is a question for investigation. Another question would be: if they did appear earlier, did they appear under a different designation or name? Do we have any literary or other sources?

Tribes and population groups usually appeared under various and different names or terms, depending on the time period and inclination and writing style of the chroniclers. The Byzantine writers were notorious as being unreliable in this respect; they usually “classicized” names of peoples indiscriminantly and used antiquarian terms at will. They referred to Slavs as Scythians, Sarmatians, Moesians, and other names; after a few centuries Scythians “turned into” Pechenegs and Cumans. Turks were Persians, and even Slavs of Thessaly were referred to as being Achilles’ Myrmidons. Serbs were Dalmatians and Triballians; Vlachs, Goths, Turkic tribes and others were all styled as Dacians depending on the time, context, and agenda of the writer.

I do not doubt that a tradition developed at some point which prompted the writers to refer to Albanians as Illyrians (but traditions are quite unreliable and can be invented and developed; they may have been conjured up by the writers themselves who in many cases emulated the literary styles of Herodotus and Thucydides).

I would say that some Byzantine writers were quite deluded, and exhibited similar tendencies. Gemisthus Pletho thought that the populations of Morea were direct descendants of the ancient Hellenes – even though I’m sure he was well aware of the fact that Slavs, ‘Illyrians’ (Albanians), Jews, ‘Egyptians’ (Roma), ‘Italians’ (Venetians and other Roman Catholics from the Italian peninsula), and other ethnic groups lived in Morea at that time period. Chalkokondyles wrote that the Serbs are the autochthonous population of the Balkans and identified them with Triballians, an ancient Thracian tribe with Celtic and Illyrian influences. Niketas Choniates also wrote: “… Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well)..”

If we are forced to discount such claims and traditions about the modern Serbs or Bulgarians (who were Moesians according to some authors), why should we accept similar claims and language used to describe the Albanians? Such expressions were merely literary devices and quite popular in the Middle Ages.

Question for you: When did Ephraemius write his piece? It seems it was after the 11th century.


3)

Quote:

The link between Albanians and Illyrians is more than a mere assumption. It's a well-rooted tradition which can be traced back to the Byzantine authors. Recent investigation has just bolstered it by proving that Albanians were descendants of Illyrians.
What recent investigation?

Have you read about the Avar archaeological finds or Avar-Slav culture in Albania? Many areas of Albania, Epirus, and even Thessaly were populated by Slavs in significant numbers (and even further south).

Some modern Greek authors, but also others, deliberately seek to minimize or whitewash the impact of Slavic colonization south of and including Epirus. Such arguments are mostly quasi-scientific in nature and are motivated by ideological biases.


4) On the Mardaites again.

After the Mardaites were settled in Epirus, Aetolia, Acarnania, Kephallenia, and Peloponnese they may have expanded into adjacent territories and areas. I have also provided a citation that states that Mardaites may have settled even in the Theme of Dyrrachion, which is significant as it represents the coastal and inland regions of modern day Albania.

Note that the territories Mardaites were reported to have settled in directly correspond to historical ethnic Albanian lands (as late as the 19th century). According to a document of the Latin sovereigns of Corfu dated 1365, which ratifies an earlier (1246) decree of Michael II, the ruler of Epirus, refers to a “decarhia Mardatorum”. (Does this refer to Albanians?) I leave it to the reader to conclude whether it seems probable that Mardaites could have expanded into new territories. I will provide some comparable and detailed examples in a different post to illustrate the plausibility of rapid ethnic change in a given territory and/or new population groups replacing and pushing out the previous inhabitants. I maintain that Mardaites expanding into adjacent territories is not an incorrect assumption, as we have many similar examples throughout human history.

As you pointed out, the Byzantine Empire was in a repeated state of upheaval and continually devastated by wars, invasions, and other calamities. In general, I agree with statements by those historians that the greater part of the population was unfortunately wiped out, and replaced by colonists from different regions within the empire, and even outside of empire’s borders. Even in the days of Strabo, Epirus was desolate, and contained only ruined villages*. The following centuries only brought further devastation and repeated settlements of various ethnic groups all over the Balkan peninsula. Albania and Epirus were not immune from this process. To conclude, by the time Mardaites were settled in Epirus and other regions, they may have settled (and expanded) into lands that were in great part depopulated and desolate.

* - Page 223, A Handbook for Travellers in the Ionian Islands, Greece, Turkey, Asia Minor ...:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=3A0N...Epirus&f=false
Carlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 03:11 PM   #360
George S.
Senior Member
 
George S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10,121
George S. is on a distinguished road
Default

Carlin; how about the country called ALBANIA IN ASIA MINOR.In old days it was on the maps what happened to the albanian population.How can these people be illyrian???,Thracian??
Dacian??I think it's all far fetched.If the Dacian's spoke a language what was it???There are far too many inconsistencies.
__________________
"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
George S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
albanian, albanian myths, albanian origins, arab, arnabud, arnaud, arnaut, arnavud, celebi, evliya, kurvelesh, ottoman, quraysh, turkish


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump