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Old 09-29-2014, 01:07 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher View Post
Neither. We have separate words for such descriptions. Let me explain. If I were to speak of something being a "Divine gift", like me winning the lottery, I would not use the name "Bozihdar", a male name, to describe such an event. This does not negate the fact that Bozihdar means "divine gift".
Of course. That's what I'm saying. So using Va and Sil together does not convey any meaning of being in power. Thank you for this. This is what I've been saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher View Post
Likewise, I would not call a prime minster "Vasil" or "Va" "Sil" because in Macedonian proper names of people are not used in such ways.
Are you absolutely sure about this? Because if you are then it adds up to what I have been saying.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher View Post
This does not negate the meaning of Vasil. Moreover, it does not mean that in the past the words "Bozihdar" and "Vasil" were perhaps used differently. Perhaps not.
It matters nothing as to the meaning of these names.
If this does not negate the meaning of Vasil, then what does?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher View Post
Imported names in Macedonian have no etymological meaning. For example, the name Peter (Petros) has no etymological meaning in Macedonian. It is a foreign name. Vasil is not a foreign name. It means "in power".
Here we go again... . In order to prove this you need to tell me ways of using that name other than the name. So far you say that there isn't any other use than the name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher View Post
You can argue that the Macedonian Vasil is a different name than the Greek name Vasileus or Vassileos or what not, but you cannot argue that in Macedonian this name does not have inherent meaning but in Greek it does.

Would you agree or disagree with this?
What I can argue is this, that Vasil, comes from Βασίλειος (Vasileios) but I can't give you a meaning prior to that, this means that etymologically it is not known where it comes from prior to that. This is what I call linearity. One possible explanation already given by me is that it comes from quasar, god knows what language is this, and that quasar is related to Ceasar. I can't see a direct correlation but since I can't give another etymological explanation I accept it.
You are saying that Vasil is macedonian because in some strange linguistic way it means in power.
Linearity and linguistics are not in favor of this.
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Old 09-29-2014, 01:27 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by spitfire View Post
Of course. That's what I'm saying. So using Va and Sil together does not convey any meaning of being in power. Thank you for this. This is what I've been saying.
Vasil is a name. Similar to all Macedonian names, it is not used as an adjective or verb. The name means "in power". By your logic, the name "Bozihdar" does not convey any meaning of being a "divine gift" because it is never used as such.

For the life of me...

Quote:
Are you absolutely sure about this? Because if you are then it adds up to what I have been saying.
It does not add up to what you are saying at all. Anymore than Bozihdar or any other Macedonian name add up to what you wrote.

Quote:
If this does not negate the meaning of Vasil, then what does?
Vasil means "in power". This is an etymological fact. It does not negate the meaning of the name anymore than the meaning of Bozihdar is negated.

Quote:
Here we go again... . In order to prove this you need to tell me ways of using that name other than the name. So far you say that there isn't any other use than the name.
This same principle applies to all Macedonian names. This is like saying because Bozihdar is not used in any other sense other than as a name then it has no meaning or the name is borrowed.

Quote:
What I can argue is this, that Vasil, comes from Βασίλειος (Vasileios) but I can't give you a meaning prior to that, this means that etymologically it is not known where it comes from prior to that. This is what I call linearity. One possible explanation already given by me is that it comes from quasar, god knows what language is this, and that quasar is related to Ceasar. I can't see a direct correlation but since I can't give another etymological explanation I accept it.
You are saying that Vasil is macedonian because in some strange linguistic way it means in power.
Linearity and linguistics are not in favor of this.
If Vasil comes from the Greek Vasileios you would expect the Greek name to have etymological meaning and the Macedonian name to be borrowed. For example, the Greek name Georgios has meaning. In Macedonian, Djordji (George) has no meaning.

What you are claiming, however, is the opposite. You are claiming a name in Macedonain Vasil, which has meaning in Macedonian, but has no meaning in Greek, comes from the Greek.

What you are suggesting, however, is that a Greek name, which is borrowed from an unknown language, was adopted in Macedonia and although this name means "in power" in Macedonian, it does not convey "in power".

This is not logic Spitfire.
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Old 09-29-2014, 01:55 PM   #223
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The name does not convey someone in power philosopher. You are getting illogical not me. You suppose it means something based on random words that you see in the name.
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Old 09-29-2014, 03:09 PM   #224
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There appears to be a serious credibility problem with you Spitfire. Let me briefly document.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
The only way to see things clearly through statistics is to use them in a scientific manner. The only way to do this is with a study.

Here's the only serious study ever made on gun control by Harvard University.

WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE
MURDER AND SUICIDE?
Here you wrote that Harvard University composed a study on gun control in support of your thesis. But in fact, this statement was factually incorrect.

Dragan called you out on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragan of Stip
This isn't a study made by Harvard University,it's only published in it’s Journal of Public Law and Policy. This is a study made by 2 people that just happened to publish it in this journal.
Dragan then stated you were caught lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragan of Stip
And the way you wanted to present the readers that it was a study made by Harvard University instead...That was very naughty of you,spitty. You've been caught lying and deliberately avoided speaking out regarding that. But I guess you've been reading Mauser's "Manipulating Public Opinion" so thought of giving it a go,right?
You refused to give an account for this. Instead, you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
I am not - let me make this clear: AM NOT - going to answer anything to someone that hasn't answered a single question since the begining, despite the fact that he was given answers when asking. It would be a lack of self-respect.

Thank you.
You refused to retract your statements or issue an apology.

In another thread, you made the following statement to SoM:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
Here's one used by philosopher also.
http://www.behindthename.com/name/cassander
I followed up your post with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Can you please provide me a citation or reference of where I stated or suggested anything at all about the name Cassander?
No response or retraction has thus far been given.

In discussing the origin of the Greek alphabet, you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
Yes, so? Slavic alphadet derived from greek alphabet that derived from phoenician alphabet (probably).
SoM then asked you what the other probability was. You wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
The other probabilities are linear A', linear B', Indo-european etc
This was a problematic statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoM
Indo-European is a reconstructed language, not an alphabet. How many examples can you cite from the Linear A or B alphabets which look like the Greek alphabet?
You responded with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
This point was made in order to show that greek had to come from somewhere. According to scholars linear A and B could be an origin.
Now mind you, the original question was about the origin of the Greek alphabet. But you shifted the argument from the alphabet to the Greek language.

SoM, naturally, called you out on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoM
Of course it had to have come from somewhere. But there is no such thing as an "indo-european" alphabet (which you alluded to). That was my point.
Instead of acknowledging your error, you only continued it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
I did not allude to anything of the sort. I said that greek comes from another language or other languages. That was the point. These languages evolved and formulated greek, as it happens with all languages.
SoM called you out again on your error:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoM
No, you didn't (at least not in that sentence). You brought into question the Phoenician origin of the Greek alphabet (post #93), I asked you what the other probability was (post #150), and you suggested one as "Indo-european" (post #151). The point of discussion related to the Greek alphabet, not the language. You've obviously confused the two.
Again, rather than admit your error, you continued it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
I did not confuse anything. I mentioned the point I was making, so your emphasis on what is and what is not is redundant
SoM yet again called you out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoM
The point of discussion related to the alphabet, not the language. Period. If you want it to mean something else in your own mind then go right ahead, but don't insult my intelligence in the process.
In the same thread, you have made similar deceptive pronouncements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Thank you Spitfire.

However, that is not what I mean. Let me explain and please correct me if I err.

The English name "George" derives from Greek (geo=earth) and (ergos=worker, energy). "Earth worker" or "farmer" is the meaning of George.

I know Basileus means king. What I would like to know is whether you can break down this word in simpler forms. In Macedonian "va" means "in" and "sil" means power. Vasil or Basil means "in power".

Can you do that in Greek?
Your response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
You are not breaking it down in correct linguistic terms. The correct linguistic breaking of the word would be Bas and the next word.
This statement stated or implied something not found in the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher
I'm not following. I never attempted to break down the Greek "Basileus". I was asking you if it can be broken down similar to how "George" can be broken down. All I did was break down the Macedonian word "vasil" which corresponds to the Greek "Vasilleos", both of which are common names.
Rather than admitting your error, you continued it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
Well I did break it for you didn't I?
I called you out on this:

Quote:
Yes you did, But that is not the issue. The issue is that you wrote that I did not break down the word correctly. But in truth, I never attempted to break it down. I only broke down the Macedonian word "vasil" and "George".
Even after this, you still did not acknowledge your error.

In the same thread, you made a similar deceptive pronouncement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
All these names have a direct meaning in greek. Can you show me any other language that these names have a meaning? Not like Vasil which is a made up etymology that doesn't follow etymological rules. For instance there is no other example nor it is used in any other word than a name.
I called you out on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Spitfire, the problem we have is that you are inconsistent in your approach. Let me give an example. The name “Bozihdar” is composed of two words bozy and dar. You would agree that this name is Slavic, right? No one uses this name, which is composed of two Slavic words, as a verb or adjective. It is used as a noun.

Now, just because this name is used only as a name does not mean its etymology is “made up” and “doesn't follow etymological rules”, does it?

Vasil follows the same pattern as Bozihdar. It is composed of two words in Slavic. It has etymological meaning in Slavic. It is used as a noun. This does not mean it is made up.

Be consistent.
Rather than admit it, you continued your error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
The problem with this word Vasil or any other etymology is that it is not consistent. Bozidar consists of two very apparent meanings. Vasil on the other hand does not. Vasil is like Napoleon, Bozidar isn't.

To understand this better, you seem to forget that your etymology of Vasil consists of an action. It is understandable why this action needs to find itself in other words. But it doesn't.
This is not the same case as Bozidar. You can't Bozidarize the same as you can't Theodorize (greek equivalent) because it is not an action that requires a verb. But you do Vasilize in greek whereas you don't Vasilize in macedonian. That's linguistics. It's not that simple.
My response to your statement (in part).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher
It seems you are a master chameleon Spitfire. Your argument keeps changing to accommodate problems in your theories.
And finally, since neither time nor energy permits, the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
The name does not convey someone in power philosopher. You are getting illogical not me. You suppose it means something based on random words that you see in the name.
But “Vasileos” means king, because it means “king” in Greek, even though the whole point of this discussion was strictly etymological, and even though this word in Greek has no etymological meaning. But random words like “va” and “sil”, which are not random at all, since that is the name, both have individual meaning, this amounts to nothing. Your argument is that Vasil does not mean “in power” simply because this name is used as a name only and not as a title for a prime minster, even though virtually all Macedonian names follow the same pattern.

I rest my case.
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:06 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Philosopher View Post
I rest my case.


But really, it is true.

Please Spitfire,

I have great respect for honest and rational discussion, and no respect for distortion and misrepresentation.
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Old 09-29-2014, 09:57 PM   #226
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From a non-linguist point of view, even I can see logical errors with spitfire's approach. It's as if he/she will do anything not to acknowledge the fact that there is a Greek word which has Macedonian roots (vasil).

Not to open a can of worms, but what about other greek words such as 'poidi' and odyssey (odisi)? I'm sure there are many more. Isn't it almost the same scenario with these such words? I am no linguist, so relax.

Also, great summary of the thread Philosopher
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:01 PM   #227
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I'm with Dejan (and obviously Philosopher) on this. Furthermore, and if i'm not mistaken, I thought many of the old-timers in Macedonia referred to royalty in simple terms such as Vasilot and Vasilicata (King and Queen respectively). This is what I have heard rather than researched.
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:09 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dejan View Post
From a non-linguist point of view, even I can see logical errors with spitfire's approach. It's as if he/she will do anything not to acknowledge the fact that there is a Greek word which has Macedonian roots (vasil).
Not to open a can of worms, but what about other greek words such as 'poidi' and odyssey (odisi)? I'm sure there are many more. Isn't it almost the same scenario with these such words? I am no linguist, so relax.
Poidi? What is that?
(Odyssey and Basileus have been discussed so i don't want to start again).
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:11 PM   #229
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Poidi? What is that?
(Odyssey and Basileus have been discussed so i don't want to start again).
Sorry, I think it's 'podi' = foot if I'm not mistaken. As mentioned, i am no linguist.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:17 PM   #230
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How typical is this? When you can't find any arguments you try to attack the credibility of the other side?

There is no linguistic relevance to what you claim and because of that you try to prove me not credible?

Simply by using a slip of the tongue from everywhere you can find it? And what is more outrageous you twist the meaning of what I have said

Vasil has nothing to do with Va Sil and that's a fact from a linguistic point of view. You can try and attack me with whatever you want but you will not prove the meaning of what we are discussing.

I am not going to follow on this twisting. It's either you provide sufficient proof of what you claim or not.

Last edited by spitfire; 09-29-2014 at 11:20 PM.
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