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Old 09-22-2014, 09:06 PM   #141
Nikolaj
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Originally Posted by spitfire View Post
First of all I thought you regard yourself as a macedonian of today, meaning that you are a macedonian not living in the past, but living in the present. The same goes for the term modern macedonia. It is meant as something that is macedonia today. Making a distinction of macedonia in antiquity, but not meaning a different one other than the chronological.
But if you don't want it it's OK. I never had a problem with calling macedonia macedonia, even old or new. I don't care really, I have enough evidence from the begining of the last century that makes me not having any problem at all with that. I cannot use some other terms of the events of the time. It's a thing with greek law, you (and I) will understand in due time.

However, I would like to see the correlation of macedonian language in the past with that of today (is that OK as terminology?). Now this would open a greater window for me.
I understand you mean it as no insult, I just think it's redundant and stupid to not keep the principle consistent when you say the Greek language, if you are Greeks of today.
There is a Macedonian Lexicon, i'm sure you'll have no trouble finding it with a search query on our forum.
If this opens new doors for you then be it, even if it were not there, we're basing our discussion on the Macedonian language.

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Fine. Why don't you bring other languages into play. That could show even more correlations.
I never said it wasn't a possibility, I only said that this is how you can come to conclude its validity; The sole reason wasn't to prove it wrong, but to prove it's correct.
I am sorry, I only speak Macedonian and English. This is why it isn't a simple task any honest person would agree to that. Like I said, it is something I will get into.
I am not going to rush this subject just for our discussion, it has nothing to do with you, only my personal interest in linguistics.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:16 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
I understand you mean it as no insult, I just think it's redundant and stupid to not keep the principle consistent when you say the Greek language, if you are Greeks of today.
There is a Macedonian Lexicon, i'm sure you'll have no trouble finding it with a search query on our forum.
If this opens new doors for you then be it, even if it were not there, we're basing our discussion on the Macedonian language.
Since I understand what happened at the time and place it would be stupid of me to think otherwise. There is an automatic relation to the past. Let's skip that.

Hopefully this Lexicon has many words. I'll give it a look.


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Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
I never said it wasn't a possibility, I only said that this is how you can come to conclude its validity; The sole reason wasn't to prove it wrong, but to prove it's correct.
I am sorry, I only speak Macedonian and English. This is why it isn't a simple task any honest person would agree to that. Like I said, it is something I will get into.
I am not going to rush this subject just for our discussion, it has nothing to do with you, only my personal interest in linguistics.
Yes I see. Well Philosopher is here, I'm here, I think we can put our knowledge to the test. And yes greek is very difficult even for the greeks.
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:21 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by spitfire View Post
Since I understand what happened at the time and place it would be stupid of me to think otherwise. There is an automatic relation to the past. Let's skip that.

Hopefully this Lexicon has many words. I'll give it a look.

Yes I see. Well Philosopher is here, I'm here, I think we can put our knowledge to the test. And yes greek is very difficult even for the greeks.
This does not differentiate you being able to call it Greek and then refer to a 'new Macedonian language'. Your language developed as much as French and Latin did, Macedonian has developed the least as it has held constant which shows its integrity.
If anything it should be called new-Greek and then Macedonian when we compare ratios of what has been held constant, but we aren't assholes to do such.

As is every language for everyone, which is essentially why each country has units for its own tongue. Yours is no different.
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:25 PM   #144
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TBA in this post.
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:29 PM   #145
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Tell me Nikolaj, this lexicon, is it this?

https://archive.org/stream/Macedonia...ge/n0/mode/2up

Because if it is, its from the 16th century and it has about 300 definitions. I don't see correlations. It uses greek alphabet instead of Cyrilic alphabet. Why is that? I don't know. I would understand if there was a correlation in greek but there isn't one.
Is there something to show me of the language used in ancient time for instanse B.C. or close to that?

I was refering to a language from antiquity to the present. A language that consists of a few thousand words at least.

Actually New-Greek is the term for greek spoken today. No Kidding that's how it is in school. I remember literature called like that. That doesn't mean it's different, it means that it's today's greek, very similar to those thousands of years ago.

You haven't understood what I said about the facts of which time. I thought we skipped the part where I said I understood what was happening in macedonia at the first half (at least) of the previous century. Hellooooooo!!

Last edited by spitfire; 09-22-2014 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 09-22-2014, 11:45 PM   #146
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Tell me Nikolaj, this lexicon, is it this?

https://archive.org/stream/Macedonia...ge/n0/mode/2up

Because if it is, its from the 16th century and it has about 300 definitions. I don't see correlations. It uses greek alphabet instead of Cyrilic alphabet. Why is that? I don't know. I would understand if there was a correlation in greek but there isn't one.
Is there something to show me of the language used in ancient time for instanse B.C. or close to that?

I was refering to a language from antiquity to the present. A language that consists of a few thousand words at least.

Actually New-Greek is the term for greek spoken today. No Kidding that's how it is in school. I remember literature called like that. That doesn't mean it's different, it means that it's today's greek, very similar to those thousands of years ago.

You haven't understood what I said about the facts of which time. I thought we skipped the part where I said I understood what was happening in macedonia at the first half (at least) of the previous century. Hellooooooo!!
You do realize, the fact that it is so similar, probability is that it would most likely still be consistent if there were more words added, especially thousands.
If you are are denying its viability because of the amount of words in the lexicon you're then implying the language only had 300 words.
You should ask what is the consistency of those words being accurate to what we have today. Not disregard it because of its lack of words and doesn't suit your agenda.

The reason why it is written using Greek is clearly denoted on the second page. Nor does it matter to me, because we're speaking strictly on the pronunciation of the words and the words used.
The fact that it is written in another language means nothing, as for example you can convert Latin to Greek and Greek to Latin. The fact it didn't use Cyrillic means nothing and is quite an amateur argument.



Pronunciation is key and the words they used, not script, e.g. two general sentences.

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Old 09-23-2014, 04:49 AM   #147
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Tell me Nikolaj, what are your thoughts on this?



In your words surely you can't deny it because there is no other yet. The fact that it exists tells us that it such language existed.

Last edited by spitfire; 09-23-2014 at 04:51 AM.
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Old 09-23-2014, 05:19 AM   #148
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Tell me Nikolaj, what are your thoughts on this?



In your words surely you can't deny it because there is no other yet. The fact that it exists tells us that it such language existed.
The Pella Curse tablet. Your point?

But lets disregard everything I've said in the past paragraph shall we?

1. Of [Theti]ma and Dionysophon the ritual wedding and the marriage I bind by a written spell, and of all other
2. wo[men], both widows and maidens, but of Thetima in particular, and I entrust to Makron* and
3. [the] daimones, and (only) when I should dig up again and unroll and read this,
4. [?] that she might wed Dionysophon, but not before, for I wish him to take no other woman than me,
5. and that [i] grow old with Dionysophon, and no one else. I [am] your supplicant:
6. Have pity on [Phil?]a*, dear daimones, for I am (a) dagina? of all my dear ones and I am abandoned.
7. But guard [this] for my sake so that these things do not happen, and wretched Thetima perishes miserably.
8. ... but that I become happy and blessed.
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Old 09-23-2014, 05:30 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
The Pella Curse tablet. Your point?

But lets disregard everything I've said in the past paragraph shall we?
My point is about consistency. What do you think?

What was it you said in the last paragraph? That 16th century macedonian is pretty much the same as today's macedonian? Yes, so? Have you seen other languages from that era? Greek for instance?
The last speech of the last Emperor of Byzantium for instance in 1453. It's pretty much how it would be today.

So, what does this lexicon prove about consistency? More or less nothng. On the other hand the curse tablet might make you think that languages evolve and this is apparent in a larger scale of time, than that of 500 years.

Last edited by spitfire; 09-23-2014 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 09-23-2014, 05:41 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by spitfire
In a possible scenario, it could be difficult for the -ndre to be pronounced in Asia, hence it became -ar or -er and latin followed suit afterwards.
And another possible scenario is that people in Asia became accustomed to the name through Macedonian and Thracian soldiers in their own native language(s).
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Whatever the case, language on its own is not sufficient for a common descent of something.
I agree, especially when a certain language is used by others for convenience, like you and I right now (yet neither of us are claiming descent from Henry VIII).
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.......greek alphabet that derived from phoenician alphabet (probably).
And what is the other probability?
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I was refering to a language from antiquity to the present. A language that consists of a few thousand words at least.
Macedonian (like most of today's languages) doesn't have a specific literature that began in antiquity. Latin does have such a history, just like Greek. Why do you think the former broke into several different languages whereas the latter didn't?
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In your words surely you can't deny it because there is no other yet. The fact that it exists tells us that it such language existed.
The Pella Katadesmos was written in Greek, not Macedonian. It doesn't even exhibit Macedonian sound changes.
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis
we don't know the original names of the Macedonian Kings only through the works of historians, but also from the coins they printed (themselves) and I guess also from various other inscriptions.
I am not suggesting that certain Macedonians didn't have Greek names, but your examples don't indicate how all of their names were pronounced in the native language.
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