Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > Exposing Lies and Propaganda

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-29-2011, 07:01 AM   #21
Voltron
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,363
Voltron is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daskalot View Post
So Voltron does this change the fact that he is a Macedonian? And this is noted in a Greek source even. Do you remember when your compatriots claimed this document to be a fake, I am talking about the English version. Don't they look stupid now? When we have the original to support it.
I dont recall who said it was a fake. It is in Ion Dragoumis book, maybe you misunderstood what was being discussed at the time. The english translatin is off and maybe that is what was brought up.

Yes, he self declared himself as a Macedonian.
What is intersting is that when Karev said he was Macedonian, the response he received was then he is subsequently Greek. This was in 1903 not recent. Then towards the end Karev basically said we share the same blood and history. In other words "Una Faccia Una Razza " I dont know much about Karev, but my first impression is that he is a respectable individual.
Voltron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 10:25 AM   #22
makedonin
Senior Member
 
makedonin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,668
makedonin is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
the response he received was then he is subsequently Greek.
And his response was that he does not know, thus he sticks to what he knows, that is that he is a Macedonian.

Can we please stick to what we know...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
Then towards the end Karev basically said we share the same blood and history. In other words "Una Faccia Una Razza "
You are somehow standing alone there. As far as the text reveals, Karev actually holds to his conviction that he is a Macedonian, he does not really cares much about others, and he is prepared to do anything to achieve Macedonian goals.
What he does not know he does not speculate about it.

But even if we take your version of the story is true, obviously the Interviewer was damping him and labels him as Bugarophron and did not consider him a kin, which really leaves you alone in the whole allusion here.

So we are left with one conclusion: Karev thought about him self to be a Macedonian, one like Alexandar. The rest was irrelevant to him.
__________________
To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

Last edited by makedonin; 06-29-2011 at 10:31 AM.
makedonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:44 AM   #23
Voltron
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,363
Voltron is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by makedonin View Post
And his response was that he does not know, thus he sticks to what he knows, that is that he is a Macedonian.

Can we please stick to what we know...


You are somehow standing alone there. As far as the text reveals, Karev actually holds to his conviction that he is a Macedonian, he does not really cares much about others, and he is prepared to do anything to achieve Macedonian goals.
What he does not know he does not speculate about it.

But even if we take your version of the story is true, obviously the Interviewer was damping him and labels him as Bugarophron and did not consider him a kin, which really leaves you alone in the whole allusion here.

So we are left with one conclusion: Karev thought about him self to be a Macedonian, one like Alexandar. The rest was irrelevant to him.
Makedonin,

Regarding Alexander and Macedonians he gives a reply to this. He says clearly that they were Greek. This confuses the interviewer because again Karev is asked, "then why you being Greek want to side with Bulgaria" ? Then he goes on to give his reasoning of the lack of support from Greece. His ultimate aim was to have a republic like Switzerland with "3 tribes" living in peace. Im not sure if he was referring to the tribes of Switzerland or Macedonia. What is clear though is that his intention was a Multi-Ethnic Republic.

Karev simply does not identify himself with anything else around him, being Greek, Turk or Bulgarian. He sees himself as Macedonian while respecting and not trying to negate the Greek history. Then to close the interview he says again "we share the same blood and history" which leaves the only difference between us to be linguistic in nature. That is an extremely balanced approach to this and too bad we dont have him around nowadays.
Voltron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 04:15 AM   #24
makedonin
Senior Member
 
makedonin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,668
makedonin is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
Makedonin,

Regarding Alexander and Macedonians he gives a reply to this. He says clearly that they were Greek.
That is what he was thought, and that does not means that it is true, possibly in patriarchist school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
This confuses the interviewer because again Karev is asked, "then why you being Greek want to side with Bulgaria" ?
The interviewer is confused because he thinks that the thought history is true and that all who claim descended from ancient Macedonians must align with the Greeks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
Then he goes on to give his reasoning of the lack of support from Greece.
It is not just lack of support, but real outright hostility if you really knew history of the time. Greeks were working with turks against Macedonian revolutionaries just so that Macedonia won't be liberated and can be prepared for the later land grab.

And the support was expected because Macedonians were actively involved in liberation of Greece as Christian brothers, which was their only mistake and illusion, not some blood line.

Christianity did not prevent the Greeks to deliver Macedonian revolutionaries to the Turks on a plate, nor did their alleged blood kinship with Macedonians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
His ultimate aim was to have a republic like Switzerland with "3 tribes" living in peace. Im not sure if he was referring to the tribes of Switzerland or Macedonia. What is clear though is that his intention was a Multi-Ethnic Republic.
Nothing wrong with Multi-Ethnic Republic.

It is what should give all other minorities the reason to be loyal to the Revolutionary movement for liberation of Macedonia.

You can't expect something with out giving something in return.

The idea is nothing new too. You have to look into the Kreshna/ Raslovci uprising where the idea was sounded already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
Karev simply does not identify himself with anything else around him, being Greek, Turk or Bulgarian.
Now you hit the nail on the head. Good that you noticed it.

However I wonder why you left out the Serbs and Albanians!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
He sees himself as Macedonian while respecting and not trying to negate the Greek history.
Karev interests are of the present, which needs his whole attention.

The last thing he needs is to endeavor historical claims and debates.

He is just not interested with it, and reiterates what he already heard or learned somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
Then to close the interview he says again "we share the same blood and history" which leaves the only difference between us to be linguistic in nature.
Well excuse me, but I don't see that in the story. How comes that you can see that?

Are you reinterpreting something here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
That is an extremely balanced approach to this and too bad we dont have him around nowadays.
I don't believe that he would really agree with you and your assertion.
__________________
To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

Last edited by makedonin; 06-30-2011 at 05:16 AM.
makedonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 08:07 AM   #25
Rogi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,285
Rogi is on a distinguished road
Default

Voltron, your interpretation of his meaning and your subsequent conclusions are your own and yours alone. Others may interpret Karev's responses as meaning something quite different to your own interpretations.

For example, Karev says he is Macedonian. Then he says he is a descendant of Alexander the Great. This is a clear statement saying that he, as a Macedonian, like other Macedonians, are descended from the ancient Macedonians.

When the interviewer asks him if that means he is Greek, he responds with a clear 'no'. A clear statement here that follows on from the previous, where he disagrees with this notion that the ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at the very least that the Macedonians, related to the ancient Macedonians (according to Karev's previous statement), are not Greek.

When the interviewer pushes the notion that Alexander the Great was Greek, Karev's response can be interpreted as simply suggesting that the notion the interviewer is presenting is simply the one that is taught, not necessarily saying that it is truth.

Not unlike the present day.

Last edited by Rogi; 06-30-2011 at 08:11 AM.
Rogi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 08:22 AM   #26
Voltron
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,363
Voltron is on a distinguished road
Default

Of course others may have different interpretations. Mine are based off what he has said, whereas the english translation is wrong. So at least lets interpret the correct version.

Regarding the Macedonians of antiquity, it is often said that in those years Greeks did not identify with them. You have a thread dedicated to that, yet in 1903 it was obvious to Greeks that Macedonians meant Greek. Then there is the asseration that there were no Greeks in Macedonia in the last century, yet again Karev dispels that.

So although he says that he is Macedonian not Greek he then says we share the same blood and history. Its right there on the second page towards the end. On the english version its stated wrongly that he said we do not share the same blood and history.

Why would he say that ? To me it can either be of two things. He wanted Greek support for his cause, or by saying he is Macedonian he is recognising the Greek Historical aspect of the term Macedonian. Is that such bad thing ? Afterall, isnt it you yourselves that say that the Slavic aspect is only linguistic in nature ? It seems to me that Karev has it all figured out.
Voltron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 08:28 AM   #27
Voltron
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,363
Voltron is on a distinguished road
Default

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by makedonin View Post

However I wonder why you left out the Serbs and Albanians!?
I didnt know how significant they were during that time. That was the reason why I left them out.

Quote:
Well excuse me, but I don't see that in the story. How comes that you can see that?
Its on the english version as well, its just that there is the word "not" which is not existing in the original document.

Also, I never said there was something wrong with a Multi-ethnic Republic. I didnt mean it that way. As far as what he was taught, well what can I say. If we start to doubt everything I might as well doubt the existance of outer space for example.
Voltron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 09:56 AM   #28
Rogi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,285
Rogi is on a distinguished road
Default

Firstly, where in his answers do you see any indication to support this claim that '1903 it was obvious to Greeks that Macedonians meant Greek'?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
by saying he is Macedonian he is recognising the Greek Historical aspect of the term Macedonian
That's quite a stretch, perhaps you can elaborate further on how you came to this far-fetched conclusion?
Rogi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:10 PM   #29
Voltron
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,363
Voltron is on a distinguished road
Default

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogi View Post
Firstly, where in his answers do you see any indication to support this claim that '1903 it was obvious to Greeks that Macedonians meant Greek'?
I was referring to the interviewer.

Quote:
That's quite a stretch, perhaps you can elaborate further on how you came to this far-fetched conclusion?
On page 556 on the original text where Karev says " we share the same blood same history " thus acknowledging the Greek history behind the name Macedonia - Macedonians.

Its my opinion, dont shoot me for it.
Voltron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:36 PM   #30
Bill77
Senior Member
 
Bill77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In front of my Lap Top
Posts: 4,551
Bill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogi
Firstly, where in his answers do you see any indication to support this claim that '1903 it was obvious to Greeks that Macedonians meant Greek'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
I was referring to the interviewer.

Liar, No you weren't, you only have to go to the recent post of yours to see who you were referring to.

Quote:
Why would he say that ? To me it can either be of two things. He wanted Greek support for his cause, or by saying he is Macedonian he is recognising the Greek Historical aspect of the term Macedonian. Is that such bad thing ? Afterall, isnt it you yourselves that say that the Slavic aspect is only linguistic in nature ? It seems to me that Karev has it all figured out.
Regarding the interviewer, i would not be surprised if he did think this bullshit that Alexander = Greek or Macedonians are Greeks. It was only 60 odd years before this that the Albanians in Greece were told they are sons of Pericles, Demostenisa and Socrates.
__________________
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

Last edited by Bill77; 06-30-2011 at 04:40 PM.
Bill77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1903, interview, ion dragoumis, nikola karev, ta tetradia tou ilinten


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump