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Old 03-17-2010, 06:06 AM   #41
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Do you have some links from the Turkish chroniclers Epirot?
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:38 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Do you have some links from the Turkish chroniclers Epirot?
Sure!

Quote:
As for Ottoman chronicles, they always mention Albanians in Kosova, including one written in 1467 that witnesses the 'rebels' pillaging livestock in the region of Tetova, under the leadership of a 'traitor' indentified as Iskender.
BY Alain Ducellier - Modern French historian
http://www.google.com/books?id=aNEW0...kender&f=false
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:30 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
As for Ottoman chronicles, they always mention Albanians in Kosova, including one written in 1467 that witnesses the 'rebels' pillaging livestock in the region of Tetova, under the leadership of a 'traitor' indentified as Iskender.

BY Alain Ducellier - Modern French historian
http://www.google.com/books?id=aNEW0...kender&f=false
Interesting!
Using your above link Alain Ducellier passes an opinion with: “it is therefore evident that a sizable Albanian population was in Kosova before the Ottoman conquest and there is no evidence of a massive immigration to Kosova”

I mean seriously! His evidence is a group of rebels pillaging livestock in the region of Tetovo! With a traitor called Iskender.. lol

I’m sorry Epirot but that’s a f’in joke.....

Last edited by Struja; 03-18-2010 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:09 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Struja View Post
Interesting!
Using your above link Alain Ducellier passes an opinion with: “it is therefore evident that a sizable Albanian population was in Kosova before the Ottoman conquest and there is no evidence of a massive immigration to Kosova”

I mean seriously! His evidence is a group of rebels pillaging livestock in the region of Tetovo! With a traitor called Iskender.. lol

I’m sorry Epirot but that’s a f’in joke.....
Struja, Alain Ducellier when say that there is no evidence of a massive immigration of Albanians to Kosova, do not base his opinion by mentioning the fact of a rebelious group in Tetova!
Please, read him at all and do not twist his words. He enumerated a couple of important facts indicating Albanians presence in Kosova throughout all times.
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Old 03-18-2010, 03:10 PM   #45
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Epirot, I was waiting for the links but now realise that was the link that Struja referred to. The English interpretation of that extract by Struja was quite correct, the author said there was some criminal running around Kosovo THEREFORE there was always a presence. It was a very basic and silly statement from the author unless he had more evidence he was referring to in preceding paragraphs.

I was looking for actual Turkish chronicles. Because I am positive the Balkans was a very different place before the Albanians of the north converted to Islam. And since it was about 2/3 of all Albanians, one can assume many Albanians had new freedoms that very few Christians in the Balkans shared. They had what you might call an unfair advantage. How do you think they used their religious conversions for their benefit?
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Epirot, I was waiting for the links but now realise that was the link that Struja referred to. The English interpretation of that extract by Struja was quite correct, the author said there was some criminal running around Kosovo THEREFORE there was always a presence. It was a very basic and silly statement from the author unless he had more evidence he was referring to in preceding paragraphs.

I was looking for actual Turkish chronicles. Because I am positive the Balkans was a very different place before the Albanians of the north converted to Islam. And since it was about 2/3 of all Albanians, one can assume many Albanians had new freedoms that very few Christians in the Balkans shared. They had what you might call an unfair advantage. How do you think they used their religious conversions for their benefit?
Risto, you're going to exaggerate somewhat the so-called 'benefitions' of Allbanians by the Turks. Only a few of people gained high position in gendarmerie or political structures of Ottoman Empire. However it is noteworthy to mention that everyone who admitted to be under Sultan's formal soverginity could benefit some 'privilegies'. And don't assume that Albanians were the only people in Balkan that were converted in Islam. There were also a Slavic tribes who became muslimanized (like Bosniaks, Torbeshs, Pomaks, etc).

So the Myth of 'Albanian-Ottoman cooperation' is broken out since it is enhanced by Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek propaganda who are interested to show Albanians as lapdogs of Ottomans, whilst in other hand, they are making a new fake profile of them of allegedly enemies of Ottoman Empire. But, you know that Slavs or Greeks were the first people who officially gained more political rights (such as opening of new schools in their respective tongue), freedom of establishing their churches and monasteries, etc, etc.

Albanians did their best to liberate themselves from Ottoman Yoke. Furthermore, Albanians were considered by Western Powers as a chief factor to destroy Ottoman rule in Balkan. Many meetings of Balkan allies (against Ottoman invasion) were held in Albania (in period of Austria incursions in Balkan XVI-XVII). This speaks in favour of my above statement that Albanians were a warlike Anti-Ottoman force.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:27 PM   #47
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Epirot, even many Turks suffered under the Ottoman rule so I do not think I am exaggerating the benefits of Islam. I am sure you would agree that (at almost 70% conversion rate) Albanians converted to Islam more than any other ethnicity in the Balkans. This conversion provided benefits to them, there is no doubt.

Infidels were given 3 options:
- Convert
- Pay tributes (taxes)
- Go to war

The Pact of Omar surely must have inspired the warrior like Albanians to revolt:
Quote:

The Christians will not:

1. Build “a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk”;
2. “Restore any place of worship that needs restoration”;
3. Use such places “for the purpose of enmity against Muslims”;
4. “Allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims”;
5. Imitate the Muslims’ “clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names”;
6. “Ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons”;
7. “Encrypt our stamps in Arabic”
8. “Sell liquor” – Christians in Iraq in the last few years ran afoul of Muslims reasserting this rule;
9. “Teach our children the Qur’an”;
10. “Publicize practices of Shirk” – that is, associating partners with Allah, such as regarding Jesus as Son of God. In other words, Christian and other non-Muslim religious practice will be private, if not downright furtive;
11. Build “crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets” – again, Christian worship must not be public, where Muslims can see it and become annoyed;
12. “Sound the bells in our churches, except discreetly, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets”;
13. “Bury our dead next to Muslim dead”;
14. “Buy servants who were captured by Muslims”;
15. “Invite anyone to Shirk” – that is, proselytize, although the Christians also agree not to:
16. “Prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so.” Thus the Christians can be the objects of proselytizing, but must not engage in it themselves;
17. “Beat any Muslim.”

Meanwhile, the Christians will:

1. Allow Muslims to rest “in our churches whether they come by day or night”;
2. “Open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby”;
3. Provide board and food for “those Muslims who come as guests” for three days;
4. “Respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them” – shades of Jim Crow;
5. “Have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist” – these are so that a Muslim recognizes a non-Muslim as such and doesn’t make the mistake of greeting him with As-salaamu aleikum, “Peace be upon you,” which is the Muslim greeting for a fellow Muslim;
6. “Be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.”

The Christians swore: “If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.”
So why did the Albanians convert en masse? One author has suggested because they lacked nationalistic and religious consciousness. I think the better reason might come from the following quote by Midhat Frasheri:

Quote:
They said to the Albanian ... "Will you go to hell?" The Albanian replied ... "How much is the salary?"
In The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present By Edwin E. Jacques, we see the following quote from Sami Bey Frasheri:
Quote:
"Albania in Turkish times became richer and wealthier than ever"
This was hardly the case with any other ethnicities in the Balkans. I think you might be understating the benefits of the close association between the Arnauts and the Turks.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:04 PM   #48
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there is not doubt there were substantial benefits and its actually true that the turks unlike he arabs were reluctant to convert as it slashed their tax base.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:51 PM   #49
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Risto, According to Menduh Tachi 99% of Albanians in Macedonia are Muslims, Im not sure about Kosovo but the figure would be quite large.
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:34 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
Struja, Alain Ducellier when say that there is no evidence of a massive immigration of Albanians to Kosova, do not base his opinion by mentioning the fact of a rebelious group in Tetova!
Please, read him at all and do not twist his words. He enumerated a couple of important facts indicating Albanians presence in Kosova throughout all times.

Epirot, I haven’t twisted anything around and for the record their not facts but opinions from other sources/footnotes suggesting the same conclusion without any hard evidence (on page 34, Alain writes: Because there is no record of any massive migration of Albanians towards Kosovo before the sixteenth century, we must conclude that a good part of Kosovo Albanians element has its roots in the ancient Illyro-Albanian population.) If you agree with Alain Duceellie and his work then all I can say is good luck to you...


Here’s the correct quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alain Duceellie
As for Ottoman chronicles, they always mention Albanians in Kosova, including one written in 1467 that witnesses the 'rebels' pillaging livestock in the region of Tetova, under the leadership of a 'traitor' indentified as Iskender.
It is therefore evident that a sizable Albanian population was in Kosova before the Ottoman conquest and there is no evidence of a massive immigration to Kosova.

Last edited by Struja; 03-18-2010 at 11:45 PM.
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