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Old 09-16-2018, 08:08 AM   #231
Carlin15
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Amphipolis, can you please translate the following? Thanks.

It comes from the book oi ellinovlachoi (armanoi) by giorgis exarchos - pages 138 and 139. The section is Mani kai Vlahoi (Mani and Vlachs).


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Old 09-18-2018, 09:34 PM   #232
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Ahladitsa Argolida, old name Dardiza.

URL:
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91...B4%CE%B1%CF%82

"Other important buildings of the settlement are Aspros Molos, built by a noble family as a benefit to the fishermen of Ermioni and the Vlach chapel of Panagia..."
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:31 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
So far we know of numerous Vlachs, Albanians, and Mardaites in Tzakonia itself. [Are Mardaites simply Albanians, or a separate people? They were likely Albanians.]

In addition, there are also Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs (the Ezerites), Armenians, and many others in Lakonia as well (that is, the wider region which includes and encompasses Tzakonia (?)).

Let's investigate and take a look at the unexplored and little known topic of Vlach words in the Tzakonian language. (How is this possible?!)

Below, I am simply providing a modern Greek source (which I don't fully endorse). The value is quite simply that it gives us linguistic evidence, and words/lexicon, which is quite intriguing (and unknown to most people out there).

Note that as per the author, the listing of words provided is a very small sample, and that it's impossible to mention all the words in one small article. This statement simply and logically implies that there are a LOT of such words in Tzakonian, i.e. there are a lot of Vlach words in Tzakonian.

The author concludes and states that "Tsakonic words are rescued in Aromanian-vlachic language", while Aromanian is simply a mixed language (Greek-Latin!) - and moreover, that this is strong evidence of the Dorian origin of Greek-Aromanians. (These assertions/conclusions can be challenged.)

Could the otherwise be more likely and possible, instead? Isn't it the Case that below evidence shows that Vlach words are rescued in Tsakonian? And does this tell us anything about the origins of Tsakonians themselves?

(Here are the screenshots. I have not made any comments about Homeric and Ancient Macedonian words in Aromanian, as it is not relevant to this topic.)

Source, for the screenshots below:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/152035866/...7;οι





So, let's focus and analyze here one example: the first word listed under category 3. Tsakonic - Aromanian, which is the word "ZARA" (and in Aromanian it is given as "TZ'ROU").

zară: buttermilk - Russu, from *dzară, from Albanian dhallë; also Aromanian dhală (recent loan; < Alb)
zer: whey - Russu, Olteanu - older zăr, Moldavian/Banat/Aromanian dzăr, masculine back-formation from zară (see above).

It would seem pretty 'logical' to conclude that Tsakonic rescues this basic Vlach/Romanic word, and not the other way around.

Source:
http://ipod-library.com/articles/Lis..._Dacian_origin

What remains to be answered and investigated in more detail, is that,
are these words evidence of a 'language shift' (from bilingual Vlach-speakers to Greek-speakers, while retaining Vlach lexicon/words), or is it 'linguistic influence' (did Tsakonians adopt Vlach words through influence)?

FYI: One more screenshot, in Greek, which lists a few more Vlach words in Tsakonian.



Source for the above:
http://www.greeks-albanians.com/top-...-cat-ga-bla-03

PS: Also, the word for "What" in Tsakonian appears to be Τσι (Tsi), which is the same as in Aromanian.

https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonisch
Maniotes never felt to Byzantium rule. They did not call themselves Romans.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:14 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tchaiku View Post
Maniotes never felt to Byzantium rule. They did not call themselves Romans.
- Contrary to the rest of Greece, Mani flourished under the Romans, because of its respectful obedience to Rome.
- With the barbarian invasion affecting the Roman Empire, Mani became a haven for refugees. In 375, a massive earthquake in the area took its toll on Gythium, which was severely devastated.
- On January 17, 395, Theodosius I, who had managed to unite the Roman Empire under his control, died. His eldest son, Arcadius, succeeded him in the Eastern Roman Empire, while his younger son, Honorius, received the Western Roman Empire. The Roman Empire had divided for the last time, and Mani became part of the Eastern or Byzantine Empire.
- Decades later, the famed Byzantine general Belisarius, on the way to his victorious campaign against the Vandals, stopped at Kenipolis to get supplies, honor the Kenipolitans for their victory, and recruit some soldiers.
- According to Constantine Porphyrogenitus, the Maniots were not conquered by the Slavs and were descended from the ancient 'Romaioi'.



URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots

Evliya Celebi (year 1668/1669) states as follows: "...and in Mani (as he emphasizes), an unfamiliar language is spoken, neither Greek or Albanian in origin."

Last edited by Carlin15; 09-21-2018 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:24 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin15 View Post
- Contrary to the rest of Greece, Mani flourished under the Romans, because of its respectful obedience to Rome.
- With the barbarian invasion affecting the Roman Empire, Mani became a haven for refugees. In 375, a massive earthquake in the area took its toll on Gythium, which was severely devastated.
- On January 17, 395, Theodosius I, who had managed to unite the Roman Empire under his control, died. His eldest son, Arcadius, succeeded him in the Eastern Roman Empire, while his younger son, Honorius, received the Western Roman Empire. The Roman Empire had divided for the last time, and Mani became part of the Eastern or Byzantine Empire.
- Decades later, the famed Byzantine general Belisarius, on the way to his victorious campaign against the Vandals, stopped at Kenipolis to get supplies, honor the Kenipolitans for their victory, and recruit some soldiers.
- According to Constantine Porphyrogenitus, the Maniots were not conquered by the Slavs and were descended from the ancient 'Romaioi'.



URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots

Evliya Celebi (year 1668/1669) states as follows: "...and in Mani (as he emphasizes), an unfamiliar language is spoken, neither Greek or Albanian in origin."
Constantine Porphyrogenitus, was himself a Roman of Armenian origin, therefore his definition of ''Roman'' could mean many things. I think the Latin origin is possible, but it is not safe to come up with conclusions.

As for Celebi, he may have mixed it with Tsakonian?
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:34 PM   #236
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Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. If he did, we may conclude he did not know well (or understand) which language(s) the residents of the Morea were speaking. As a result, we may also question not only what he reported but his methods or process of collecting information.

URLs:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=cFI...opDVUQ6AEIJzAA
https://www.google.ca/search?hl=fr&b....0.vmWc8-TQ47Q
https://www.google.ca/search?hl=fr&b....0.vAn2DO7YA0g

- "Peloponnese also significantly enriches our documentation about the Aromanian dispersion."
- "Vlachs meet on a fief within the barony of Akova."
- "The Vlachs of Peloponnese had to arrive in the wake of the Albanians, so numerous that, under Mahomet II (1451-1480), they totaled nearly 40% of the Moreote population."

Last edited by Carlin15; 09-22-2018 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 10-08-2018, 10:32 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
- "Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese.."
- "Number of non-Vlachs remained lower than the Vlachs.."
- "..the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians.."
- "..the guerrillas were generally Vlachs and Albanians, and in the Greek revolution Vlachs and Albanians, etc etc..."
- "Arcadia ... numerous Vlach villages."
- "Achaia ... Vlach villages."




This, apparently, is an accurate translation of the first few paragraphs:

Up to 50 years ago (before 1865) it was easy to distinguish the Vlachs of Peloponnese from the other tribes. Today (year 1915) only in the eastern and central parts of the Peloponnese, where they were more isolated because of the barren land.

In Laconia, the Maniates are always a distinct tribe, contemptuously calling the rest as "Vlachs". The Tzakones of Leonidio and nearby villages are also a distinct tribe, not only in language but also in their ethnic belief, calling as "Vlachs" the rest residents of the territory.

In Arcadia we see the same, more specificly in the mountainous central and western part, where we find many Vlach villages where the residents consider theselves as something different from the rest.

In Achaia the Vlach villages are also distinct from the non Vlach villages and the same we see in Corinth and Argolis, although in those places the Albanian element has assimilated the most of them.
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Old 02-27-2019, 10:54 AM   #238
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Re-post

This is a copy & paste from a newsgroup that is no longer available online. I was able to save the info for my archives many years ago (I did not make any editing to the text below - sorry for the formatting). Some, but not all of the comments are from Constantine Buhayer (University of Westminster, London).




http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/pub...ay/003688.html
http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/pub...ay/003691.html

Some further reflections on the ubiquitous nature of Vlachs and
Arvanitovlachs (Karagouni) south of Thessaly and the Helladic Mainland and across the Corinth canal.

In passing, I would like to add a footnote on the underinvestigated question of Vlachs/Arvanitovlachs of Moreas (Peloponnese),

The French 19th century traveler Cousinery makes mention of Vlach-speakers in the market of the city of Argos (Argolis, Peloponnese) during his travel in Morea shortly after the War of Independence (1821). He specifically makes mention of the fact that these men and women spoke a Latinate language, similar to the Vlachs he met in Macedonia. These Vlachs told him that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the surrounding mountains (I believe that the evidence points in the direction of Arcadia) [Cousinery H.E.M., _Voyage dans de la Macédoine_, Book I. Paris, 1831, p.18; cited in Koukoudis, A, _The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora_, Zitros Publications, Thessaloniki, 2000 (in Greek)]

There is also the unresolved issue of the widespread Sklabhnika, Armanika, Arbanitika kai Latinokeltika (Slavonic-like, Vlach/Armiîn, Albanian, and Latin-derived) toponyms particularly in Arcadia, a subject of tempting speculation...

Aside from the obvious Vlachokerassia and Arvanitokerassia, toponyms like Asanoi, Arachouva, Atsicholo, Baltetsi, Baltesiniko, Belimaki
[Mpelimatsioi], Berbaina [akin to Varbeani], Blongo, Garzeniko, Granitsa, Dimitsana, Drestena, Nemnitsa (Nimnitsa), Palumba, Roinou, Saltozi, Sopôto, Stemnitsa and so forth, raise legitimate questions as to Vlach and/or Arvanitovlach presence particularly in the central and southeastern areas of Peloponnese (including the region referred to as Tsakonia -- point of reference: Leonidion)

[Swkrath N. Liakou: Ermhneia Ebdomhnta Sklabhnikwn Topwnumiwn ths Arkadias (me tis Latinikh Keltikh Arbanitikh Armanikh), Mikroeurwpaikes (Balkanikes) Meletes 13, Qessalonikh, Iounios, 1981]

Besides, the ingrained notion of a slavonic derivation attached to a
plethora of toponyms in Lacônia is also subjudice calling for a critical
reappraisal to assess the extent to which these might have a latin-based (as opposed to slav-based) derivation, suggesting a putative Vlach/Arvanitovlach link.

In the first place, the unresolved saga of Millingi in Mani comes to mind. It is noteworthy that Millingi inhabited the inaccessible regions of Mt
Taygetus and Mt Parnôn, particularly the latter. But, as a rule, the
mountainous route of migration (or escape) would be more typical for the
fleeing indigenous populations, as compared to the settlements of invaders
who would tend to be more agrarian.

Incidentally, the purported Slavonic origin of the word Millingi is
questionable and so is the attendant implication that the Millingioi, i.e.,
the inhabitants, represented in fact, bona fide Slav tribes. In this
regard, one does not have to concur with Georgaka's interpretation [D.
Georgaka. _The Medieval Names Millingi and Ezeritae of Slavic Groups in the Peloponnesus_. Byzantinische Zeitschrift, 1950, Munchen, pp. 43 49], in the same way that one does not have to accept a priori Fallmerayer's assertions [Ph. Fallmerayer, _Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea wahrend des Mittelalteres_, Stuttgart, Tubingen, 1830-1836]], which have been perpetuated by the old German school of Anthropology [Max Vasmer, _Die Slawen in Griechenland_, Berlin, 1941: 87].

To the extent that the word Millingi may have a Latinate derivation [see J. G. Th. Graesse _Orbis Latinus_ (2nd edition), Richard Carl Schmidt & Co.; Berlin 1909], a possible medieval Vlach/Arvanitovlach origin of the term should also be entertained.

The once rebellious Millingi, fought alongside with fellow 'Byzantine' Greeks (i.e., Cynurians and other Arcadians and Lacônians) in the abortive assault headed by Michael I Komnenos Doukas (despot of Epirus), against the Franks (Venetians) in Messênia.

There are many signposts of Millingi in the Mt. Parnôn area, including 'Zygos tou Meligou', 'Dromos tou Miligou', 'Meligitika Kalubia' and, near Agios Iôannis, the 'Meligou' or 'Meligoun' as is referred to by (S)Phrantzês.

C.D.K.

PS. Last but not least, let us not forget the Moraitiko traditional song
"Mia Vlacha Vlachopoula, Arvanitopoula..."
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:00 PM   #239
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Vlach Hardomili clan of Herzegovina




Location in Herzegovina of the Vlasi Hardomilic


The Hardomili/Hardomilici 'name' seems to be similar to Kardamyli, in the region of Messenia on the Mani Peninsula.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardamyli



URLs/Links about the Vlach Hardomili:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=H5x...0vlasi&f=false
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/imot...t2354-s20.html
http://brunodam.blog.kataweb.it/2016...63/?refresh_ce
https://www.academia.edu/9032498/Dr_..._I_HERCEGOVINE
http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/66/Bosna.jpg


"...ώς επίθ. χαρακτηριστικόν ίππου έχοντος ανοικτόν κόκκινον χρώμα Πελοπν. (Μεσσ. βλαχοσίταρο τό; Πελοπν. (Αχαϊα Καλάβρυτ. Κόρινθ. ... Ράχ' ράχ' πάινα, τρώουντα βλαχόσφαχτα, βλαχότρουγα, βλαχόσφαζα του Βλάχου τα σφαχτά."

URL:
http://repository.academyofathens.gr...ent/120778.pdf

Amygdalia (formerly called Mamalouka) is a small mountainous settlement of Achaia, and belongs to the municipality of Kalavryta. The old name "Mamalouka" is presumably of Vlachian origin, although no etymology has been given (according to Louloudis 2010, page 656).

Last edited by Carlin15; 05-04-2019 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 05-04-2019, 09:05 PM   #240
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skorta
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skorta

Skorta was a name used in the 13th and 14th centuries, during the period of Frankish rule in the Peloponnese, to designate the mountainous western half of the region of Arcadia, which separated the coastal plains of the western (Elisian) and southwestern (Messinian) Peloponnese from the Arcadian plateau in the interior.

Let's see what the French Wikipedia contains:

1) La population locale, aujourd'hui entièrement grecque, mais aux origines également en partie slaves et valaques, est renommée pour son esprit de rébellion, et n'est jamais totalement soumise aux princes d'Achaïe latins.
- "The local population, now entirely Greek, but also with part Slavic and Vlach origins, is renowned for its rebellious spirit, and is never totally subject to the princes of Latin Achaia."

(The population of Skorta is hardly of Greek and Slavic and Vlach origins. It's almost entirely of Slavic and Vlach origins, with perhaps some Albanian elements - fully self-hellenized.)


2) Footnote 6

i) La dispersion des Slaves et des Valaques transhumants dans l'ensemble des Balkans, Péloponnèse inclus, est évoquée sur des bases toponymiques et linguistiques
- "The dispersal of Slavs and transhumant Vlachs throughout the Balkans, including Peloponnese, is evoked on toponymic and linguistic bases"

ii) La région figure comme pays slave sur une carte allemande du Péloponnèse
- "The region is listed as a Slavic country on a German map of Peloponnese"
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