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Old 08-31-2009, 06:58 AM   #11
osiris
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som i have bernals book if you want i can send it to you or better still we can catch up and i ll give it to you. it is a great read and fantastic analysis of how western europe chnaged the story of hellas to suit their political and racists ideologies. napoleons one sentence precis is spot on but there is so much more to learn from bernal, and his bibliography opens new horizins one can explore.
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Old 08-31-2009, 08:08 AM   #12
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the German, English and French scolars of the 18th century fabricated the racist 'European' 'Aryan' origin for ancient Greek civilisation that is still currently taught today, thus denying ancient Greece's true Afro-Asiatic roots.
Reminds me of Napoleon Bonaparte's famous quote I believe it was something like "history is a set of lies that are agreed upon."
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Old 09-06-2009, 06:35 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by osiris View Post
som i have bernals book if you want i can send it to you or better still we can catch up and i ll give it to you. it is a great read and fantastic analysis of how western europe chnaged the story of hellas to suit their political and racists ideologies. napoleons one sentence precis is spot on but there is so much more to learn from bernal, and his bibliography opens new horizins one can explore.
Putting aside the 'animosity' towards Bernal exhibited in the articles of Lefkowitz and co, have you read their counter-arguments and do you find any of them to be valid and with merit? I recall that they attack Bernal's etymological links between Semitic and Mycenaean in particular, I guess that would be an interesting section of his book to review. I would like to check it out, koga si sloboden?
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Old 09-06-2009, 08:30 AM   #14
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i dont know if his linguistic analysis is beyond reproach what i found more interesting is his history of the many changes of european thinking on greece and its origins. its the same old story in academia every generation thinks that the real history of the world has been already written by their generation. according to bernal the ancient model the hellenes believed in was that they owe much to the egyptians and phoneicans and i tend to agree with him surely the ancinte hellenes are more qualified to know the relationship between their culture and the egytptian and phoenician. the modern nit pickers piss me of, they have an agenda be it personal carreers to protect or political agendas to persue. one 20th century critique of herodutus description of egytptians being black as pitch with wooly hair reckons its because herodutus did not meet any real egyptinas but only the slaves of the streets. i couldnt stop laughing at the stupidity and audacity of this modern academic. how the fuck would he know who herodutus met and assume so readily the herodutus was so dumb he couldnt distinguish between the slaves and the egyptians. for me bernal is a breath of fresh air and his detractors self serving careerists. for fucks sake until the end of the 19th century these so called expert historians didnt even know of the sumerians. what is there to suggest that our 20th century historians most of who are products of an education system founded and determined by argubaly that most racist arrogant and politically inspired century are objective or infallibale or even curious enough to search for a truth that may demolish everything the have learned taught and made a great sof living from. we have much to discover in the history humaity and in particular of the pre hellenic european world and i dont think it will be weatern academics who are the ones who will do it.

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Old 05-18-2010, 08:55 PM   #15
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Asiatic_languages

This subject fits in well here, as ancient Egyptian, Semitic, Ethiopian, etc all beong to the same family of languages called 'Afro-Asiatic', which leads to an interesting parallel regarding the assertions we have made in relation to the Paleo-Balkan languages and their pre-existing commonalities with the language of the 'Slavs' on and beyond the Danube. Arabic, although new to Egypt after the spread of Islam, was nevertheless related (in one form or another) to ancient Egyptian.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:26 AM   #16
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Here is something interesting that Tomovsk posted; probably relevent here also.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...0&postcount=33

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" there is also another circumstance that contributes not a little to my conviction of the weakness of ancient times. before the trojan war there is no indication of any common action in hellas, nor indeed of the universal prevalence of the name ( hellas / hellenes ); on the contrary, before the time of hellen son of deucalion, no such name existed, but the country went by the names of different tribes, in particular of the pelasgian. it was not till hellen and his sons grew strong in phthiotis, and were invited as allies into the other cities, that one by one they gradually acquired from the connection the name of hellenes; though a long time elapsed before that name could fasten itself upon all.
[ the landmark thucydides, page 4 , 1.3.1 - 1.3.3 ]
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:05 AM   #17
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Black Athena is a good read on the subject.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:22 AM   #18
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something i came across :

" There is also a version that Lydians once lived in continental Greece or on the Aegean islands. However, when Lydian and Carian inscriptions and even texts were found and deciphered, after the Hittite language was transliterated and identified, linguists realized that both Asia Minor languages were Indo-European. Though Carian was maybe the most influenced by the aborigines who inhabited these lands before Indo-Europeans came, still it keeps many common features with Hittite and Luwian. And as for some traces of the language similar to Lydian or Carian, in Greece or Crete, many think they just represent the same substratum language which influenced Carian itself. In other words, these traces in Greece are not Carian in fact, but the remains of the language spoken both in Greece and in Caria before Indo-Europeans occupied these countries".

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/chron/chron3.html
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
Some primary source quotes...

Furthermore...

In regards to 'Black Athena', it's author Martin Bernal believes that ancient Greece evolved as a result of Egyptian (Danaos), Phoenician (Kadmos), and Anatolian (Pelops) invasion and colonisation over the indigenous Pelasgian population. This theory was also widely believed by the ancient Greeks themselves as evidenced by the above qoutes. Bernal also states that unfortunately, the German, English and French scolars of the 18th century fabricated the racist 'European' 'Aryan' origin for ancient Greek civilisation that is still currently taught today, thus denying ancient Greece's true Afro-Asiatic roots.
This is a great summary of Bernal's thesis.

In the 15th century BC a new western power emerges in the Hittite documents - that of Ahhiyawa, which Bernal equates with Achaeans. [Homer's name for Achaeans and their allies against Trojans; no "Hellenes" are mentioned in Hittite documents].

Bernal further states that Achaeans were a mixture of West Anatolians and Pelasgians. 'Danaans' are the inhabitans of the kingdoms established at the end of the 18th century BC, by the original Hyksos 'heroes' - Achaeans are those conquered by the Anatolian dynasties.

The Proto-Greek language took shape by 1500s BC (as per Bernal), as a result of mixing of various cultures and nations: Pelasgians, Egyptians, Phoenicians, West Anatolians.
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:42 AM   #20
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The ancient Greeks were, naturally enough, a demographic synthesis of "indigenous" peoples, Greek-speakers who migrated from the north and other peoples from the surrounding areas. Their culture, like all cultures, had some roots and connections with the cultures they had had come in contact with. All cultures, to this day, influence each other when they come into contact.

As for the "African roots" of the singularity of Greek culture, simply look at pictures of ancient Egypt and compare them with those of ancient Greek society. Compare ancient Greek religion, literature, philosophy, writing, language and alphabet with that of ancient Egypt and there is not the remotest connection. They seem to come from different planets. Compare ancient Greek with Roman society and the similarities are striking.

Bernal's thesis had its 15 minutes of notoriety and was quickly dismissed and discarded. Rescuing it from the dustbins of historical writing is a self-defeating and pointless exercise.
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